/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2786314

Ah yes, tried and tested socialism like Cuba and North Korea, can't wait for the endless power cuts and being sent to the gulag for complaining about it

> inb4 "but that wasn't real Socialism we'll just take all the billionaires money and build infinity houses for infinity brown people!!"

>>2786316
I don't advocate socialism, I advocate a real free market. That means free movement of labour, planning deregulation, and free movement of capital and goods.
Your days of being subsidised are over, free-rider.

>>2786316
North Korea will be standing longer than London inshallah

>>2786316
I'd choose Juche over whatever Richard Tice, Lee Anderson, and Liz Truss are offering up.

>>2786310
Were talking about what media is served you fucking spastic,at least read the comment chain before you bestow your fairy seething on us, manlet.

Right wingers should be bullied in libertarian terms.

>>2786316
And yet, the only countries in Europe without millions of recent immigrants are from the eastern block. Curious

It'll get no sympathy here but it's hilarious to be how Starmer could've run a much more successful neoliberal government if he'd actually done any preparation out of office and if he'd had good economist advisors instead of that cretin McSweeney. It was possible - not easy, but possible - for Labour to be re-elected in 2028 while having cut real terms tax and spending. You could pull that off and still remain the main party of the left at crunch time, maybe even eat up some Tory voters to offset some inevitable bleeding to the Greens… but no.

Cosmically funny in its own way.

>>2786376
Starmer would be popular if he didnt (i) condemn the southport rioters or (ii) ban palestine action. his centrism is his unpopularity.

I hate to say it but some of my friends are Welsh imperialists. They do not respect the nationhood of Kernow and say it is just "West Wales".

And what of Hen Ogledd, the old north?
Cumbria is named after the brythonic people, in their own language.

>>2786378
He was unpopular to begin with for being a wanker and he made it worse pissing about with winter fuel payments and disability benefit cuts in isolation instead of his first budget having so many changes nobody knew what to make of it. Winter fuel cut alone only created losers - tie it all up in a budget that also scraps NI, moves tax bands and benefits around, etc, and there'll be winners who'll fight for their gains to balance out the losers opposed to change.

If the original neoliberals understood anything, it was to not be a fucking coward. (Blair/Thatcher were admittedly both deficient in this regard, hence why so many should-be loser parasite bourgeois thrive in Britain)

>>2786524
>>2786499
These lands were promised to Wales in the myths and legends of King Arthur.

Any books on how Sinn Fein has developed post Goof Friday Agreement?

>>2786535
Yes, but only after his second coming of Arthur shall the red dragon drive the white dragon out and slay the lion;
<But the Red signifieth the race of Britain that shall be oppressed of the White. […] Thereafter shall the German Worm be crowned and the Brazen Prince be buried. […] For a people in wood and jerkins of iron shall come upon him and take vengeance upon him for his wickedness. He shall restore their dwelling-places unto them that did inhabit them aforetime, and the ruin of the foreigner shall be made manifest. The seed of the White Dragon shall be rooted out of our little gardens and the remnant of his generation shall be decimated. The yoke of bondage shall they bear and their mother shall they wound with spades and ploughs.
https://sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/gem/gem08.htm
The British regard the English as Germanic foreigners.

Will it be possible to change UK left wing parties regarding their stance on immigration?
I don't understand why they all seem to promote immigration, even doubling down on it. Not only is it a misfire in terms of the mood of the electorate, it doesn't even seem like a genuine left-wing perspective on the issue.
Obviously the focus should be on highlighting the exploitation capitalism bestows on immigrants, and the effects these subsequently have on locals, in contrast to the demonisation of immigrants that right wing parties are deploying.
It seems a given Reform will win at the next election but I can't fathom there's any hope of a left-wing victory when the parties keep this position.

>>2786622
virtue signalling is more important than winning

>>2786622
>>2786631
"The electorate" don't exist in aggregate. You have the left, who either don't care or like immigration, and you've got the right, who care.
For a not so radical example look at the SNP. Bland socdems trending to the center - but probably immigration!

I'm too lazy to give you a full explanation but ultimately all politics is signalling. It is true that the left virtue signal, but the right vice signal. Ask yourself: is your balanced immigration policy really a serious consideration of labour market policy, or is it just trying to square the difference between virtue and vice to make up for your own vices?

As a communist I don't care about immigration and would let the government do whatever it wanted so long as it had pro immigration rhetoric - one must always at least look virtuous. As a capitalist, I would open the borders completely and tell anyone who doesn't like it to self deport.

>>2786704
>as a communist, i support lowering wages to bare subsistence
such is life.

>>2786735
But practically speaking, you prefer lower wages at the expense of increased immigration, so as to boost your virtue signalling?

>>2786742
That is the deluded opinion of the individual you are responding to initially, in which the world and likewise immigration can be reduced to a black and white stance of for and against

The demand you must put forward in practice as it must be understood in thought is an end to the social reproduction of an order based around capitalist profit

If you step a foot from where you were born you should be shot, not only should there be no immigration, people shouldn’t move, that dos the same thing, increases the labor supply in one area and brain drain another. Stepping outside your hometown should require a license, permit, at least three forms of identification and the whole village should throw cabbage and tomatoes at you when yiu do leave.

>>2786788
I have my shitpost permit and my dogshitpost permit you can’t touch me

>>2786794
It’s three tiers, I don’t have the money to take the safety course for the bullshitpost permit yet

Incidentally max powers or whatever that right wing wanker's name was had a fun point here: while wages in general have stagnated, the minimum wage has gone up. Britain has (by his measure at least) better pay equality than Stalin's USSR and one of the best minimum wages in the developed world despite (perhaps even causing!) stagnant productivity. So "muh wages are cut by immigration" is invariably the whinge of some dickhead upset about his differential.

>>2786748
The world can in general be reduced to for and against, with middle solutions invariably leaning one way or the other (or in rare cases: revealing a personal obsession and well thought out solution… Basically irrelevant to the options on the table from real powerbrokers)
Which makes sense when you remember these issues are mostly personality tests, not policy questions. I have no influence over immigration or transgender rights or Scottish independence or any other issue: but I can decide if I'd like to associate with racists or libs, middle aged TERFs or people under 35, progressive young Scots or reactionary old Scots and antipathetic, occasionally self-hating English, and so on.

>>2786834
If the aim was to suppress wages you would have to explain why the Cameron/May/Johnson/Sunak government hiked the minimum wage (at an accelerating rate compared to Blair) and created the national living wage (yeah yeah not the real living wage: still a price floor), you'd also have to explain why Starmer is successfully cutting immigration.
You'd also have to explain why most of our business was run into the ground anyway.

No, "the state is grotesquely incompetent and just fucking around" really is a better explanation than "they're all really smart and imposing their class interests" (the Tories didn't die for imposing the bourgeois class interest, they're dying for abandoning it!)

>>2786837
Your ideals are being informed in the context of mainstream trends within a consumer based audience for news and British political life

Deciding that one day you agree with whatever one factional cause suggests as a result of its own gerrymandering as a compromise on your own uninformed beliefs is the norm; there is little differentiation on both sides of the supposed debate on immigration as both are just the result of the reproduction of the image of social relations within British capitalist society

>>2786499
They're not very good at cardinal directions then are they?

>>2786813
>This kind of stupidity is why I'd rather endorse all sorts of horrors than affiliate with openly anti immigration types.
So yes..? You tolerate "horrors" so long as you can virtue signal?

If immigration is bad why is not all moving and travel bad in general? Because the bourgeois set up the borders?

>>2786820
The real shit is that entire sectors like Care would collapse without people willing to work for poor wages because the average brit, as a result of the collapse of institutional proletarian power, seeks individualist escapes from poor working conditions. Care is a shit job and most people go into it because 1) they are bleeding hearts 2) they have no other choice (lots of white british in 2 but still). The anti-immigration workerist would just say "well if you just stop immigration the wages would rise and people would do it!" but no. The british proletarian has been individualised and atomised to the point where they only want to escape that kind of labour. This is why a trade union movement like britain's existed in the first place: it sent people down into the pits as much as it fought for their honour and dignity. Thatcherism, the ever cannibalistic mess, destroyed this labour discipline in the working class and promoted hedonistic individualism that means there is no longer a sense of proletarian duty. If you are artistic (or gay) you escape to the big cities, if you are cognitively about the median you go to university, if you are relatively attractive you can now sell pictures of your willy/fanny (Bonnie Bue worked as an NHS recruiter!). The rural housing crisis doesn't help this ofcourse (if we provisioned for working class rural housing a lot of the countryside wouldn't be on the verge of implosion but anyways) but in industries like care, agricultural labour, food processing, cleaning, taxi driving etc. these are the fundamentals in urban areas too. This isn't even a race thing no british born asian or black kid is like "yes I am going to be a cleaner for the rest of my life". In a society with labour discipline it is possible but we destroyed that. The tory reaction is to swing between "well these are just starter jobs you aren't meant to do it for the rest of your life!" (oh so food processing is just a fad for kids to do in the school holidays yeah?) or have this image of millions of neets claiming disability refusing to do this work so they must have a gun pointed at them so they will. Neither of these are real or close to reality; if there was such a reserve pool of labour we would have never had the crisis of work post-pandemic that lead to the Boriswave, and the barbour crowd really don't understand how the benefits system works that there are just more than a million people living off of it. I know some people who have "anxiety" who don't work but they are universally middle class and living off the tit of their parents, not the state (and there aren't just huge numbers in towns like Newark that can just be shuffled into care).
I don't know what the solution is, it isn't infinite immigration and unregulated borders but the neolibs are right that without immigration, including the Boriswave, this country would have a severe labour shortage.

>>2786865
>labour discipline
Idealism, voluntarism

>>2786916
Is it idealism or voluntarism when I tell you to do something with a gun pointed a your skinny head?

>>2786865
The solution is to end capitalism or at the very least to implement severe social democracy. I worked as a support worker at homeless hostels for a bit over a year and the job itself wasn't even that bad, dealing with the homeless residents etc was occasionally difficult but usually they just were happy for someone to not treat them like a piece of shit, it was the miserable working conditions that was the issue, dickhead managers, complete lack of standards in the organisation. The office culture was so fucking shit, so many absolute arseholes working there that just wanted to make the whole thing miserable. On top of that my schedule was for some god forsaken reason like morning one day, evening the next day, then morning the next day, then morning again then evening, and so on.

The point I'm trying to make is that these jobs drive away people that would have been willing to work hard for not even that much money if they just were treated a little better. The people that stay are the ones that thrive in that toxic culture and get off on bullying people.

My point is that the worst part about being a cleaner or a carer isn't cleaning up shit, it's getting treated like shit every day by the organisation.

>>2786933
>Support worker
Literally one job I will never miss

14 hour shifts back to back for an income that is nothing after tax working in an industry that is just designed to bleed you dry

>>2786935
Yeah it's absolutely a predatory industry, and we were so unprepared for what we were doing too. I had a two day induction and then they threw me into looking after 60 people along with one other worker. I didn't even have any first aid training at all, it was fucked. But I was lucky to even have a job so whatever. I'm doing better now as a debt adviser, it's pretty easy honestly

>>2786865
Not a bad point, but for devil's advocacy purposes: Max headroom would argue that part of the problem is the minimum wage increases eating pay differentials. If you're given the choice between £8/hr stacking shelves or £12/hr doing social care, some people will choose care for the extra money. If you set the minimum wage to £12/hr, the supermarket wage goes up but the care wage probably doesn't (because productivity in care hasn't increased), but now most people will skip care because it's more work without more pay.

which then creates a situation where the main people who'll be careful workers for minimum wage being those who'll be deported if they change jobs.

>>2786916
Material reality read David Harvey on Fordism.

>>2786987
I mean you could make that argument but I feel like care jobs were never paid better than supermarkets anyways.

>>2786933
>My point is that the worst part about being a cleaner or a carer isn't cleaning up shit, it's getting treated like shit every day by the organisation.
I am not sure that is really the case. Your example is a bit different because support workers do tend to be bleeding hearts but it isn't really a job of last recourse. Nobody is a life-long cleaner anymore; sure you can't live on it economically but you also can't socially. I am reminded of my time in security: even if I was being paid £15 or £20 an hour the hours themselves are so unsociable (let alone the nature of "nomadic" security moving from gig to gig) that you can't really have a proper existence doing it. part of that is 24hrification and the death of Sunday as the day of rest (also the death of Monday as the Day of Rest for those in hospo) but yeah. This imo is what truly breeds a lot of the despair and alienation in modern britain, less economic poverty in of itself but a time poverty created by unsociable work hours, harsh staffing rotas, a lack of social amenities for those who don't work 9-5, awful commute times, and generally the collapse of social civil society.
This isn't me trying to do some like post-materialist "It isn't about MONEY!!!" shit just I feel like actually most people would accept relatively lower wages if you had the time to fucking live. How this squares vis-a-vis immigration is that immigration, especially from non-anglophone global south, put up with these harsher time conditions because when you speak fucking Tigray you have little to do in your spare time anyways may as well work and eek out an existence in the subaltarn of the first world.

>>2786999
I mean that's kind of what I was saying though. It's not the act of cleaning that's the issue, it's what you're supposed to put up with. Absolutely the lack of any amenities for night workers etc is appalling, it's no wonder they die sooner on average. Some jobs do need to be done in the evening or at night but there's no excuse for zero hours bullshit so that you don't even know when you're supposed to be working one day to the next. Even working at night wouldn't be quite that bad if it was consistent and you had one week on one week off or similar.

So yes immigrants do fill those miserable jobs but if we reformed work to be less miserable we wouldn't need as much immigration.

>>2786987
On one hand, what anon said: >>2786994 (I guess you could substitute Deliveroo or Uber or shit although if you are doing taxi rather than food delivery there is a relatively high capital investment first).
Regardless, the (correct) retort to that is collective bargaining in the care sector. The issue is that that doesn't stop Tarquin (who posts behind a Wittgenstein avi on twitter) complaining about infinity nigerians working in the care sector.
Also at the risk of sounding like a writer for The Economist this shit only gets worse as age demographics take hold. Ignoring the Care sector will expand because of more olds (all of this applies to low level service work, food processing etc too) the decline in young people entering the workforce will just make the require for migration harder. I have yet to see the right actually come up with a response for it. They hate the neoliberal response (promoted migration) sure but even if you get your nazi "complete remigration" wetdream you still have the baseline problem, if not worse. Only countries that have found a way around it are those who can promote migration in a way that doesn't cause much social tension (Australia getting plenty of white western european migrants who will work in hospitality, Quebec having a "better a black francophone than a white anglo" mentality, Spain getting latinos, New Zealand moving towards a post-colonial mentality in which pacific islanders are a part of the "in group"). LIke long long term the solution is automation and the creation of a society where menial labour is ended; otherwise you will just have youth slaving away from an army of olds.
An idea I've always had to resolve the inherent democratic tension between a voting body of olds who outnumber the economic productive is in effect syndicalism, maybe on an interwar austrian "state-mandated youth council" way but not sure how you could implement it in practice. A general revival of the trade union movement would safeguard against mass gerontocracy though.

>>2787007
>So yes immigrants do fill those miserable jobs but if we reformed work to be less miserable we wouldn't need as much immigration.
The one thing I will say is that there needs to be some kind of way to deal with the dynamic that if you are looks-wise an 8 or above, or you are a 5 or above and willing to do weird shit, you can just exit the labour market and sell yourself online. 4% of women in britain have onlyfans accounts, and a stupid number of men entering the porn industry are builders (at a time when we need more builders, they are paid well, and the yoy numbers total are decreasing). Its like the mirror of a brain drain: a looks drain as it were.

>>2787026
I dunno man, I think you really overstate the case. 95% of those women are probably making no money off it, and very very few of the men.

>>2787060
that only works if you're a UK politician.

>>2787026
>4% of women in britain have onlyfans accounts
3.8% of those 4% barely makes pocket money from it

>>2787267
>>2787030
And how many of those are sex trafficking victims?

>>2787270
Almost none and who give a shit about that anyway when sex trafficking now means "any whore that regret it and/or try to rebrand".
We wasted so many political capital on radfem gynoslave bullshit like this, that was more destructive than any cringe transhumanist communist lolcow.