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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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>elon musk was born jun 28 1971 and has been alive roughly 1.73 billion seconds
>elon musk as of may 2026 has a net worth of 788 billion dollars
>elon musk has roughly $455 for every second he has been alive

classcucks will say he "earned" that. lmfao. that every second of his life, his genius brain innovates 455 dollars into his pocket.

can a person really "earn" that much or can they only get lucky and maybe also position themselves properly in a fundamentally exploitative system? some of you will no doubt answer that he "earned" it for the sake of provocative contrarianism

I want to make fun of burgers but honestly the majority of his fan boys are barely English literate third world boomers who believe he is an example of meritocracy working.

Like one of my older relatives unironically told me Musk spent his childhood as blue collar construction worker

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>>2811616
nah there's plenty of burgers who lick porky boots and will say they "created jobs" or "took on risk" or "innovated" as if that entitles them to more money than the GDP of Yemen

This misses the real argument for capitalism which is that it creates incentives to do something. He got rich despite not being that impressive a guy because he positioned himself in the right place, doing the right thing when it came to PayPal. He wasn't even on the A team, but the thing is all the evil guys who got rich setting up e-commerce stuff built a platform for something much more valuable. His wealth is just a fraction of the wealth created in his vicinity. A fundamentally unimpressive man worked on sorta the right thing and someone working on a better version of the same idea bought him out. This seems intuitively unjust but the net result for society is that someone set up a useful service.

"How do you get people to do things, especially when it's not always obvious in advance what things people want, and most people don't know their own real preferences" is what the market solves for, not virtue, not moral entitlement to wealth.

>tfw gf has Muskoid autobio
I am going to throw it away when we move snd act dumb

>>2811651
That pussy can't be worth it bruh

>>2811659
She is great she just doesn't like anal play, I want to eat her ass after the gym but she refuses to

>>2811669
Why do you want a brown nose?

>>2811671
(No offense to people with one)


A lot of class cucks are basically just secular calvinists(randians) that genuinely think they're in the elect.

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>>2811649
you say capitalism creates the "incentive" to "do the right thing" yet only capitalism results in overproduction of necessities which are then destroyed instead of given away in order to stabilize prices.

>overproduce milk

>now it's too cheap to sell profitably
>should we give it away?
>no that will decrease demand
>what should we do instead
>destroy supply until prices stabilize

>uh oh the grocery store can't sell all its food

>should we give it to the homeless?
>no that would be a handout
>what do we do instead
>throw it in the dumpster and pour bleach on it so not even the stray animals can safely eat it

ONLY UNDER CAPITALISM DOES THIS HAPPEN

HOW IS THIS A RATIONAL SYSTEM

Its called a JOB

>>2811692
because capitalism doesn't "create" the "incentive" to do anything. NEEDS and WANTS do. capitalists don't "create" jobs either. NEEDS and WANTS do. people NEED food and WANT entertainment. So that is the incentive to grow food and produce entertainment. Not "capitalism". Capitalism is only a mode of production that arose with a few unique historical conditions:

<industrialization

<end of serfdom
<enclosure of the commons
<proletarianization
<generalized wage labor
<urbanization

commodities, markets, wage labor, and capital all existed before capitalism, as did the incentive to fulfill needs. It is only in the capitalist era that wage labor became the most common form of labor, outstripping subsistence farming and serfdom.

>>2811651
why don't you confront her class cuckery like you do for everyone on here

>>2811686
  1. overproduction of necessities is a good thing. the traditional problem of humanity has been scarcity of necessities
  2. most supermarkets, at least in the UK, do give their food to homeless charities. more importantly, they usually sharply discount it on its use-by date.
  3. the actual operation of milk markets is substantially more complicated than this. supplies are not generally destroyed to increase prices, but because it's the cheapest and easiest way of getting rid of an oversupply. if milk prices are low for a sustained period, what happens is that the least efficient milk producers go bust. (which is good.)
  4. the waste from such destruction is a fraction of the waste that can arise from bad planning. e.g. the late USSR funneled large amounts of grain into poorly managed cattle herds and lost huge amounts of crops to bad transportation and storage.

you are however right: capitalism is not a rational system. it is an evolutionary one. the point about low milk prices killing off inefficient milk producers, or about pond-scum like elon musk striking it rich because they were prospecting in an area of social necessity is precisely the point. you can always point to the gigantic pile of dead animals to highlight the irrationality of evolution, but evolution is also why we're having this conversation right now.

>>2811694
nobody could accurately predict that we neither particularly needed nor wanted virtual reality despite constantly saying that we do. how do you decide how much resources society should allocate to VR development versus other forms of entertainment? (seriously: i want you to answer that.)

>>2811715
it would be unfair to say that under communism nobody has any incentives, it would be more fair to say that communists do not think seriously enough about what those incentives will look like.

the easy answer is that people will do all of these things out of their good nature, with an abundance of non-scarce goods. that's the fantasy most have. we may even say it'll be more true than untrue: but that would still require engaging with how the current system actually works, why it evolved and why it's proven so hard to kill off, rather than just sitting up in a forest going "yeah, well if evolution is so great why did the dodo die out? what rational system designs that, eh?"

>>2811715
The incentive is you don't go to jail if you work. Jail is where if you don't work you are beaten, but this is an old fashioned way of doing things. The idea is to automate production to the point of providing a regular life without needing work.

>>2811715
you're a fucking bot dude. he already explained to you that needs and wants are the real incentive

>>2811731
>overproduction of necessities is a good thing
wasn't complaining about overproduction in and of itself but how the capitalist will destroy the overproduced commodity to stabilize the prices. it doesn't matter if you produce more than everyone needs if people still don't get what they need because there is a failure of distribution rather than production.
> most supermarkets, at least in the UK, do give their food to homeless charities.
in the USA over half of food is thrown out. the reforms on your tiny island notwithstanding the USA is a lot bigger and probably more representative of how the capitalist world handles things
>the actual operation of milk markets is substantially more complicated than this. supplies are not generally destroyed to increase prices, but because it's the cheapest and easiest way of getting rid of an oversupply.
maybe that was a bad example but you have to notice that they were willing to squeeze labor to overproduce milk, but not willing to squeeze labor to distribute the overproduced milk. Why? the former is profit the latter is not. they destroy the commodity to stabilize the price.
>the waste from such destruction is a fraction of the waste that can arise from bad planning. e.g. the late USSR funneled large amounts of grain into poorly managed cattle herds and lost huge amounts of crops to bad transportation and storage.
maybe there are more options than deliberate waste and accidental waste. we should learn from the USSR not repeat everything it did.
> you can always point to the gigantic pile of dead animals to highlight the irrationality of evolution, but evolution is also why we're having this conversation right now.
You wanna talk about evolution? Slavery evolved into serfdom. Serfdom evolved into wage labor. What does wage labor evolve into?

>>2811744
needs and wants are an incentive, but they're a weak incentive to making shit you don't want that society nevertheless needs. there are not 6 million people on the planet who would make steel as a hobby, given a totally free choice.

>>2811726
>nobody will want to do art without the profit motive
literally that's what humans spent most of their time doing when they were hunter gatherers. having sex on mushrooms and painting each others bodies and cave walls.

>>2811756
damn you've convinced me. capitalism will continue forever. i'm going to become a porky now.

>>2811755
my understanding is that most food waste takes place in the home, reflecting that many people get more than they need. that others go hungry is due to failures (plus class conflict etc) in the labour market specifically. moreover, transport workers are generally squeezed. there still comes a time when you're going to have to cut your losses.
(in the US this is possibly more severe than the UK because geographical distances are greater.)

it is my belief that we'll evolve into something better than capitalism which, for most practical purposes, we can call communism. in explaining what works about the status quo, or how apparently irrational (evolutionary) processes can have better outcomes than more rationally planned ones, i'm mainly seeking to discourage communists from lazy thinking.

>>2811761
not the point. you are being lazy and trying to get out of thinking about the practicalities of incentives in a non-capitalist economy by discarding all analysis of what does and doesn't work as advocating for the status quo.

i will ask you as well: what is the appropriate way to decide how much of society's resources should be invested in VR?

>>2811744
class cucks are so brainbroken they genuinely can't wrap their head around the concept that capitalism isn't just an eternal state of affairs and actually came about fairly recently because of specific historical circumstances. It's why some ppl get crazy butthurt when anthropologists explain that full barter economies are a myth.

>>2811789
>my understanding is that most food waste takes place in the home, reflecting that many people get more than they need.
well that's just your understanding. in the USA 50% of the food is thrown out BEFORE it reaches the consumer

>>2811616
>Like one of my older relatives unironically told me Musk spent his childhood as blue collar construction worker
back in 2012 I had a job at a grocery store and there was a really dumb guy that said Donald Trump was a self made man. This was before he became president mind you. He was dickriding Trump because he liked shows like The Apprentice and Shark Tank. He really bought the sleazy business bullshit. I had to break it to him that he inherited money from his dad. Then he counter-argued that Trump "lost it all and made it all back" arguing that the bankruptcies proved he was talented, otherwise he would have been "working at Mcdonalds." Like… What? Bro literally thought bankruptcy for rich people means he got all his Trump towers repo'd, that he lost all his billionaire connections, friends, powerul allies, etc. He didn't realize that wealth is more than just money, it's the social connections that allow you to keep exploiting and benefiting from the system in ways ordinary people cannot. His concept of privilege was so limited but I was not articulate enough at the time (and also could not articulate due to the constraints on communication inherent in a workplace) why he was stupid.

>>2811870
it's even worse because burgers throw out like 50% of the food both before it reaches the consoomer and after it reaches the consoomer. so burgers only eat 25% of the food circulating in their economy and they STILL have an obesity epidemic they're fixing with drugs instead of diet and exericise. absolutely unsustainable society.

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>>2811601
>some of you will no doubt answer that he "earned" it for the sake of provocative contrarianism
The same /pol/yps calling you "goycattle" and "raped Epsteiniteslave" because they imagine you support Israel if you're not a nazoid will turn around dickride any fucking goypitalist in the most sycophantic manner

>>2811899
>Epsteiniteslave
new wordfilter lol

>>2811789
>>2811731
>>2811649

https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Library:Fascism_and_Social_Revolution
https://www.marxists.org/archive/dutt/1935/fascism-social-revolution-3.pdf

The most direct, elementary and typical expression of the present stage of capitalist policy is the organised collective destruction of wealth and of the productive forces.

The purposeful destruction of commodities for economic reasons is in itself nothing new in capitalism, but an integral part of its daily working from the beginning. It was in 1799 that Fourier first became convinced of the necessity of a new form of social organisation when he found himself entrusted with the task at Marseilles to superintend the destruction of a quantity of rice held for higher prices during a scarcity of food till it had become unfit for use. Nevertheless, this rice had at any rate been held back in the hope of sale, and was only destroyed because it had become unfit for use. This was not yet the modern principle of the wholesale destruction of good rice, good wheat, good cotton, good coffee and good meat.

In the same way the endeavour by combination to limit stocks, restrict production, and maintain or raise prices is inherent, not merely in capitalism, but in commodity economy from the beginning. As Adam Smith wrote in his Wealth of Nations:


People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public or in some contrivance to raise prices.

(Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations, Book I, Chapter 10, Part ii.)

But such a policy appeared to Adam Smith, the original voice of classic capitalism, as an offence against the principles of capitalist production, as “a conspiracy against the public.” It has remained for our day that all the capitalist governments of the world should meet together in the World Economic Con- ference to proclaim, with the combined voice of all the most enlightened, progressive statesmen and all the economists, the supreme aim to restrict production and to raise prices. Thisisa measure of the extreme stage of decay of capitalism.

The distinctive modern stage of capitalist policy for the destruction of wealth and of the productive forces is marked by three outstanding characteristics.

The first is the gigantic scale of destruction, conducted over entire principal world areas of production, and calculated in relation to world stocks.

The second is the direct government organisation and sub- siding of such destruction and restriction of production by all the leading imperialist governments.

The third is the extension of destruction, not only to the destruction of existing stocks of commodities, but to the destruc- tion of the productive forces, the ploughing up of crops and sown areas, the artificial limitation of production, the dismantling of machinery, as well as holding unused the labour power of millions of workers.

The examples of this process throughout the capitalist world are too familiar to require repetition. The burning of millions of bags of coffee or tons of grain, in the midst of mass starvation and poverty, have horrified the world. But all this has been no accidental or exceptional happening through the action of individuals, but on the contrary directly organised by all the capitalist governments of the world, and in the forefront by the most “progressive” governments, by the Roosevelt Government in the United States, by Social Democratic governments, etc.


It is a tragic irony that men and women in New York should be suffering the tortures of hunger while tens of thousands of pigs in farrow are being slaughtered in Iowa by the command of the Gov- ernment, and farmers in Kansas or Nebraska are burning their grain. (News-Chronicle, October 17, 1933.)


The expenditures account recently published of the Agricul- tural Adjustment Administration under the Roosevelt regime affords a pretty picture of modern capitalism (Economist, December 30, 1933):


[table of statistics and citations to be found in the pdf]

This inspiring combination of Mammon and Juggernaut, let it be remembered, is the worshipped idol of the Labour Party and of the Trades Union Congress, as proclaimed at their meetings at Hastings and Brighton in 1933.

From Denmark it was reported in November 1933 that cattle were being slaughtered in the Government abattoirs at the rate of 5,000 a week, for the carcasses to be burnt in the incinerators. The Government established a special destruction fund; but so great was the cost of destruction that Parliament had to be approached for further credits for the construction of new slaughter houses. This was under a Social Democratic Government (!!!).

In the same way the British Labour Government had already carried the Coal Mines Act for the limitation of the output of coal——with such success that in the beginning of 1934 a London firm actually ordered a consignment of coal from abroad, on the grounds, as they stated, that owing to the limitation schemes it was impossible to secure a delivery from British sources with sufficient speed.

In Britain in 1930 the company “National Shipbuilders Security, Limited” was formed, with power to borrow up to three million pounds, for the purpose (according to the Memorandum of Association) “to assist the shipbuilding industry by the purchase of redundant and/or obsolete ship- yards, the dismantling and disposal of their contents, and the re-sale of their sites under restrictions against further use for shipbuilding.” Within a few months its successful activities were reported in the Press:

National Shipbuilders Security, Limited, has purchased Dalmuir Shipbuilding Yard, owned by William Beardmore and Co., and in consequence it is to be closed down by the end of the year. This shipyard was one of the largest on the Clyde, employing six thousand men during the war. Negotiations for the purchase and closing down of other shipyards are in progress.

Up to the end of 1933 this new type of capitalist company had bought up and closed down one hundred shipbuilding berths. In the twelve months to June 1933, the world tonnage of merchant shipping showed a net decrease of 1,814,000 tons, more than half this decrease being in tonnage owned by Britain.

Similarly, in the woollen textile industry the Woolcombers Mutual Association, Limited, was formed early in 1933 “to assist the woolcombing industry by the purchase and dis- mantling of redundant and obsolete mills, plant and machinery for re-sale under restrictive covenants against their further use for woolcombing.”

The principal copper producers of the world entered into an agreement at Brussels in December 1931, to limit production during 1932 to 26 per cent. of the capacity of their mines.

The National Coffee Council of Brazil, from which country comes two-thirds of the world’s coffee, decided in December 1931 to destroy twelve million bags of coffee. During 1932-3 9,600,000 quintals (equivalent to 1,248 million pounds weight) were destroyed, an emergency tax being imposed on coffee exports to finance the purchase and destruction of surplus coffee (League of Nations World Production and Prices 1925-32, p. 28). Up to the end of 1933 no less than 22,000,000 bags of coffee had been disposed of by burning or dumping in the sea.

The Governors of Texas and Oklahoma called out the National Guard to take possession of the oil-wells and prevent production.

The United States Department of Agriculture in the summer of 1933 announced bounties of seven to twenty dollars per acre to farmers for the destruction of the cotton crop. This was successful in securing the ploughing in or mowing down of 11 million acres out of a total of 40 millions:


The Government hoped to take ten million acres out of production by paying growers $7 to $20 per acre (according to the yield of their land) for ploughing under or mowing down cotton already growing. . . . The scheme was immediately successful in restricting acreage, over 11 million acres being ploughed in or mown down, reducing the estimated acreage from 40.8 to 29.7 million acres. (World Economic Survey 1932-3, pp. 313-4.)*


To the modern bourgeois mind and outlook this process of wholesale destruction and restricting of production, in the midst of poverty, appears as a natural and self-evident necessity. Without sense of contradiction they proclaim it in the same breath that they proclaim the necessity of “economy” and “cuts” to the masses; and correctly they feel no contradiction, since both are indispensable to the maintenance of capitalism at the present stage. They preach to-day the policy of restric- tion of production with the same sense of obvious correctness and common sense with which they preached after the war the policy of “increased production” as the path to prosperity. Thus in the summer of 1933 we find the British Chancellor of the Exchequer answering the “theorists” who imagine restric- tion of production to be “a bad thing”:


To allow production to go on unchecked and unregulated in these modern conditions when it could almost at a moment’s notice be increased to an almost indefinite extent was absolute folly.

(Neville Chamberlain in the House of Commons, June 2,


1933: Times, June 3, 1933.) In the same way the Economist was able to report with satis- faction:


While there was an enormous over-expansion of productive capacity before 1929, investment in capital equipment has been severely curtailed since then, and a substantial proportion of existing plant and machinery has become obsolete or has been scrapped. There can be little doubt that substantial progress has already been made in the re-adjustment of productive capacity to the lower level of demand for consumers’ goods.—( Economist, May 13, 1933.)


“Productive capacity” must be “re-adjusted” to the “lower level” of consumption of the impoverished masses. Such is the bed of Procrustes (who was also a bandit, but a less skilled and large-scale bandit) to which modern capitalism in its extreme stage of decay seeks to fit the tortured body of humanity. The more obvious and glaring expressions of this process, the burning of foodstuffs, the dismantling of machinery that is still in good condition, strike the imagination of all. But all do not yet see the full significance of these symptoms: first, the expres- sion through these symptoms of the extreme stage of decay of the whole capitalist order; second, the inseparable connection of this process of decay with the social and political pheno- mena of decay which find their complete expression in Fascism; and third, the necessary completion and final working out of this process in war. For war is only the complete and most systematic working out of the process of destruction. To-day they are burning wheat and grain, the means of human life. To-morrow they will be burning living human bodies.

>>2811735
it's all slavery… the idea is to reduce the amount of time you're a slave.

>>2811601
Is Elon just a petit bourg and not a full one because he takes a part in production as a CEO?

>>2811914
>it's all slavery… the idea is to reduce the amount of time you're a slave.
but if the capitalist owns the means of production, then automation doesn't translate into less work time for you. instead automation translates into technological unemployment, a swelling reserve army of labor, a crisis of oveproduction, a destruction of oversupply to stabilize prices, a rise in crime and other desparate measures to stay alive without a wage, etc.

So automation does not reduce slavery, it just leaves the slaves to die when they are no longer needed.

What reduces hours and increases wage? Class struggle. But class struggle must not merely reduce hours and increase wages, since those concessions demilitarize the working class, allowing the capitalist class to slowly roll back the concessions or intensify exploitation in other ways. Instead you have to abolish class society itself.

>>2811649
>This misses the real argument for capitalism which is that it creates incentives to do something.
how did the soviet union go from a semi-feudal backwater to a spacefaring nuclear superpower in 40 years flat while also winning multiple wars of extermination against capitalists who tried to strangle them in the crib? Where did the incentives to do all that come from?

>>2811649
>This misses the real argument for capitalism
>"How do you get people to do things, especially when it's not always obvious in advance what things people want, and most people don't know their own real preferences" is what the market solves for

Do you think Capitalism is when Markets?
Markets pre-date capitalism

<Only through the undervaluation or overvaluation of products is it forcibly brought home to the individual commodity producers what society requires or does not require and in what amounts. But it is precisely this sole regulator that the utopia advocated by Rodbertus among others wishes to abolish. And if we then ask what guarantee we have that necessary quantity and not more of each product will be produced, that we shall not go hungry in regard to corn and meat while we are choked in beet sugar and drowned in potato spirit, that we shall not lack trousers to cover our nakedness while trouser buttons flood us by the million – Rodbertus triumphantly shows us his splendid calculation, according to which the correct certificate has been handed out for every superfluous pound of sugar, for every unsold barrel of spirit, for every unusable trouser button, a calculation which “works out” exactly, and according to which “all claims will be satisfied and the liquidation correctly brought about. […] And now consider the naiveté with which Rodbertus would abolish industrial and commercial crises by means of his utopia. As soon as the production of commodities has assumed world market dimensions, the evening-out between the individual producers who produce for private account and the market for which they produce, which in respect of quantity and quality of demand is more or less unknown to them, is established by means of a storm on the world market, by a commercial crisis. If now competition is to be forbidden to make the individual producers aware, by a rise or fall in prices, how the world market stands, then they are completely blindfolded. To institute the production of commodities in such a fashion that the producers can no longer learn anything about the state of the market for which they are producing – that indeed is a cure for the crisis disease which could make Dr. Eisenbart envious of Rodbertus.


  • Friedrich Engels, Preface to Poverty of Philosophy, First German Edition, 1885


>>2811870
you're going to have to cite this, the best i can pull up is that 40% of the post-harvest food supply is thrown away (mostly by consumers) and that the primary reason farmers destroy food is because americans are picky consumers who won't eat ugly or misshapen fruit or vegetables.

>>2811910
I don't wish to appear dismissive in replying to such a long post with a short one, but citing stuff from 1933 (before keynesianism and before the collapse of the keynesian consensus into neoliberalism and before the post-2008 crisis of neoliberalism and before it started to metastasize into the current weird protectionist turn) seems of dubious value when analyzing what's happening under capitalism today.

particularly when, as you quote yourself, much of the destruction of that era was driven by the government mandating it as part or short sighted economic policy. (whereas in the post-ww2 era, for a while governments often simply bought the surplus and used it for commodity buffer stocks.)

>>2811649
>This misses the real argument for capitalism which is that it creates incentives to do something. He got rich despite not being that impressive a guy because he positioned himself in the right place, doing the right thing when it came to PayPal. He wasn't even on the A team, but the thing is all the evil guys who got rich setting up e-commerce stuff built a platform for something much more valuable. His wealth is just a fraction of the wealth created in his vicinity. A fundamentally unimpressive man worked on sorta the right thing and someone working on a better version of the same idea bought him out. This seems intuitively unjust but the net result for society is that someone set up a useful service.

"How do you get people to do things, especially when it's not always obvious in advance what things people want, and most people don't know their own real preferences" is what the market solves for, not virtue, not moral entitlement to wealth.
>market
>incentive
lol, who let a retard in here?

>>2811715
>The problem with communism is nobody has any incentive to produce anything more than subsistence lever or do simply do anything they dont need to do.
Thats not even an argument lol. Money or "markets" are not an incentive.

>>2812064
You didn't answer the question you quoted

>>2812073
Money can be exchanged for goods and services, it is absolutely an incentive. Stop being retarded.

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>>2811696
You don't have a vagina
>>2811671
Scent is the hottest part of a woman

>>2811649
>>2811692
>>2811715
You are wrong, plenty of people have the incentive to do shit, if anything, capitalism stops them from doing so In capitalism, only people who are psycho enough to bomb entire nations are the ones who are able to do anything

>>2812091
If they had the incentive to do it and they had the capacity to do it, they would have done it.

>>2812086
>leftcom anon's principles go out the window the moment sex is involved
hahahahahahahahha

>>2812105
ragebait or genuinely stupid?

you can tell even the quality of troll arguments has gone down on here
this is like 12 year old ayn rand libertarian stuff

>>2812086
Ass is also where I live.

>>2812105
>they had the capacity
Correct you dumbass, under capitalism, the majority of people don't have the capacity to engage in free labour.

>>2812117
Imagine being this angey that some random anon's gf has a dumb ass book.

>>2812185
This is true, but they have never been closer to having it. Man has never been free, before he was hemmed in by man he was hemmed in by nature. He might, however, be free yet.

But not while communists are lazy LARPers who can't even understand how the status quo works.

>>2812078
as I already said earlier ITT, the real incentive to do things is to satisfy the needs and wants of oneself and others. Furthermore capitalism is not simply "money" or "markets" which both predate capitalism by a very long time. Capitalism does not "create incentives". That was the original point of discussion started here:

>>2811649
>This misses the real argument for capitalism which is that it creates incentives to do something

This anon is wrong. Incentives predate capitalism just like money and markets. In fact incentives predate money and markets. Incentives exist in the most basic forms of life. A unicellular organism can grope blindly for food because it needs food. And many of our mammalian cousins like to get high and drunk just like we do, even though they don't need to. Jaguars consume the ayahuasca vine. Dolphins use pufferfish to intoxicate themselves. Needs and wants exist in animal life. Incentives are driven by needs and wants. Money and markets predate capitalism, and are merely a development of existing economic technology that began with cuneiform ledges and granaries.

What is Capitalism, then? To understand what Capitalism is you have to read the actual historical section of Capital Volume 1, Part VIII, Chapters 26 through 33, which describes primitive accumulation and the origins of capitalism.

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>>2812185
>Imagine being this angey that some random anon's gf has a dumb ass book.
i'm not angy she has the book, I think it's funny that you're going to surreptitiously throw it out and play dumb instead of convincing her to do it. Reeducate her, don't just eat her ass.

>>2811601
Who the fuck are you even referring to, exactly?

>>2812154
that's because the old userbase left and a new generation falling for old nonsense has arrived. you have to educate.

>>2812236
read the thread, they show up. anyway answer the question

>elon musk is so important he deserves 455 dollars for every second he's been alive, more money than he could possibly spend in several lifetimes, so much money even he isn't capable of fathoming it, so much money that he couldn't even make it liquid if he wanted to, it just has to sit there as a petrified hoard of money capital, being managed by hundreds of accountant flunkies, a socially managed piece of capital that outstrips the GDP of many nations, that somehow belongs to one person for some reason. This makes total sense and you're a radlib if you disagree. please notice my ragebait senpai

>>2812220
>but they have never been closer to having it.
That's literally irrelevant retard.

>>2812233
Bro has never been in a long lasting relationship ever, I am not going to start an argument over a book.

>>2812232
you rely far too strongly on a misinterpretation of "creates incentives", they obviously aren't saying that incentives don't exist absent capitalism, they're saying capitalism creates more incentive to (say) create a digital payments processor than alternate systems. "meeting your needs and the needs of others you know" gets you growing crops, but it doesn't get you producing much more than the minimum surplus crops. why would I grow crops for people on the other side of the country who I've never met when I could go fishing with my son instead? the market incentive is: to get money that I can use to get other stuff later.

I've been caught on the point about VR all day. what is the alternative to a market when it comes to deciding how much to invest in VR? I've usually believed you can just ask people what they want and then produce that, but people have reported high levels of interest in VR for decades, yet hardly anyone actually uses it now that its a thing. what is a rational planner to conclude? invest more and you might be throwing good money after bad, don't invest and you might be pulling the plug on a brilliant idea too soon. the market answer: let interested parties put their money on the line and if it's a flop, only they lose out, isn't a bad option as options go.

>>2812238
> they show up.
Where? All I see is you tilting at windmills.

>>2812324
he thinks a poster who repeatedly highlighted that musk is a dope who got bought out by people making something good is a muskoid because the average poster on this site is a Pavlovian retard

>>2811927
Capitalists make profit from exploiting labor, so automation is not compatible with the continued existence of exploitation. This was shown in the 1970s when automation in the west reached a point where it was no longer profitable at home, so they moved manufacturing to Asia.


>>2812324
so you can't answer the question in OP? curious. you might be one of them.

>>2812338
>musk is a dope who got bought out by people making something good
that's not the problem with that post. the problem with that post is the notion that "capitalism heckin creates incentives!!!!!!" which was responded to repeatedly, but those responses were ignored.

>>2812319
>they obviously aren't saying that incentives don't exist absent capitalism, they're saying capitalism creates more incentive to (say) create a digital payments processor than alternate systems.

wow capitalism creates an incentive to perpetuate itself and not incentives in general? that is a lot more specific of an argument, a lot more true, and I won't argue with it. thank you for moving the goalposts to my side of the field.

>>2812284
>Bro has never been in a long lasting relationship ever
wrong
>, I am not going to start an argument over a book.
leftcom anon this would be believable if you weren't always calling everyone a classcuck for much less. maybe you're just afraid to put your persona in practice IRL because you know it sucks

>>2812729
>Bro start a discussion with your wife because she read the first 20 pages of an irrelevant book!
You are obsessed and mindbroken

>>2812732
>have a discussion? insane! I'm just gonna throw it away when she's not lookin
coward. bordiga is rolling in his grave

>>2812734
Happy wife, happy life

>>2812698
If the USSR had the right incentives it wouldn't have humiliatingly collapsed. Meanwhile you can simplify dengism down to getting the incentives right.

Fundamentally, almost nobody on leftypol talks about incentives. "People will just like, freely make all the steel they need dude!" is not a serious vision of how things will look after capitalism. "The USSR but it totally works, dude!" Is maybe the only thing less credible. The best alternative proposed in the thread so far is just jailing people for not working hard enough. That'd underperform the status quo, but fuck, it'd get the steel made most of the time.

>>2812694
>"How do you get people to do things, especially when it's not always obvious in advance what things people want, and most people don't know their own real preferences"
Well, how?

>>2812744
This fucking chimp actually used steel production as a way to shit on the USSR

>>2812744
capitalism is not "markets" and "incentives" you can have these things you are talking about without capitalism. "Dengist" china still has high level economic planning, state owned enterprises, etc.
>Fundamentally, almost nobody on leftypol talks about incentives. "People will just like, freely make all the steel they need dude!" is not a serious vision of how things will look after capitalism.
Cybercom and political economy talk about this stuff all the time. you might like those threads.
> "People will just like, freely make all the steel they need dude!"
Communism is not freedom to do whatever you want. Bourgeois individual freedom is the freedom to accumulate property and exploit others. Communist freedom is freedom from poverty, freedom from unemployment, freedom from exploitation in the marxist sense in the word. But if the government drafts you to produce steel, so be it. Marx talks about labor conscription in the manifesto. If you can conscript people for bourgeois armies, or jury duty, why not labor?

>>2812743
opportunism. you tell her she's a classcuck for having a musk book and then have make up sex. NOW.

>>2812748
>Well, how?

>>2812759
Ok give ma couple of hours

>>2812762
i'm proud of you

>>2812744

Part of the solution to basic incentive problem is piece rate wages. The USSR in the early 50s had become number one in Europe and second in the world for percentage of employment remunerated on a piece rate basis. Yevgeny Spitsyn repeats this in many different lectures.

For innovation, I forget the exact video, but Andrei Fursov also mentions dedicated funds allocated to a review board that would reward workers that came up with new methods or techniques with fairly substantial bonuses (usually several months ay) after a period of review. Not only this but their entire department & workplace would receive some benefits as well, so as to encourage pro-social behaviour when it comes to improving production.

>>2812755
No, I used the fact the USSR collapsed to shit on the USSR. I used steel production to attack the idea that individual/immediate communal needs and wants provide all the incentive necessary to do complicated tasks.
(I wouldn't be surprised if the USSR overproduced steel. I know it certainly goodharted carting it around by train.)

>>2812756
I don't particularly care about the capitalism part. The markets and incentive structures are what is interesting. That so many self proclaimed socialists/communists get caught on the pedantic question of "what, technically, is capitalism" instead of the more meaningful question of "whatever the status quo is, why is it clearly working well enough to knock off most alternatives?"

At the individual level: if the government drafts me to make steel while I'd rather be posting on leftypol, why shouldn't I half ass my job?
>>2812779
This (for example) is a valid answer to that question.

>>2812812

To limit overproduction in a mature economy in general, basically you would need a quantitative output cap on piece rate wages (Could be set at something like 105% or 110% of quotas for normal production).

Still I doubt if the USSR overproduced steel. In the 70s the were material shortages for a lot of construction projects (related the kosygin reforms I mention below).



Note also that USSR didn't really collapse economically until after reforms towards capitalism. It was only when perestroika was introduced that you had a significant recession.

Really the destruction of the USSR has far more to do with class questions rather pure economics.

Though it should be said kosygin reforms of 65 onwards did mark a significant shift in the direction of state capitalism (& strengthen petty bourgois class elements as well as slowing the long term growth rates).

Though in my opinion the conclusion is too strong, have a look st "The Restoration of Capitalism in the Soviet Union" by Bill Bland.

File: 1778809486834.jpg (94.59 KB, 600x597, fetchimage.jpg)

There's no way that some of the people in this thread are even human, they have to be bots.

>>2812779
the USSR invented TRIZ, basically a dialectical materialist method of invention, and now fortune 500 companies like samsung use it at the R&D departments. "capitalism breeds innovation" my ass!

>>2812969
anon, what're you doing? the fact that capitalists can adopt soviet innovations better than the soviets could adopt capitalist innovations (remember: capitalism is still here and the USSR is not) speaks well of capitalism and badly of the USSR.
"how do you not get outcompeted and die?" is an important question for any socialist project that doesn't conjure up a world revolution.

File: 1778831894111-0.mp4 (9.13 MB, 1920x1080, 1778766659013.mp4)

File: 1778831894111-1.mp4 (9.13 MB, 1920x1080, 1778766659013.mp4)

According to the CPC, Elon Musk is a progressive capitalist who is building the productive forces for the whole world (Starlink, EVs) therefore he is to be supported. This is why CPC members take selfies with Musk and admire him.

All criticism of Musk is misguided left-deviationist behavior and should be corrected.

>>2812994
Just one bourgeois project dying for other bourgeois projects to grow

Incentive under capitalism is an odd one, because people like Musk and Zuckerberg were themselves just consumers of technologies and standards that were developed by large, slow, bureaucratic organisations to satisfy rather mundane requirements rather than because of “incentivised visionaries”.

None of the dotcom billionaires actually created the internet or any of the technologies their businesses were initially built upon and although you could claim they were visionaries to utilise the pre-existing technology in a certain way that others enjoyed, none of their businesses currently resemble their initial visions.

VCs came in to pump a lot of air into the dotcom bubble but again, no one considers them visionaries for that. Their incentive was a return on their investment, the bubble burst, the space was consolidated into a few mega-corporations, every product and service is intentionally shit and exploitative.

So it’s only really the last step where “enterprising minds” produce billionaires and that’s also the part no one likes. Sure Facebook without VC investment would have stayed a small platform that gets users via word of mouth and it would have just been an internet yearbook for colleges forever, but who cares? That’s the era of Facebook people liked, it’s the era of Meta being a multi-billion dollar behemoth that’s actually attributable to the incentive to get rich and everyone hates it.

>>2813039
I remember being on Xiaohongshu during the Tiktok exodus, and one thing that confused our Chinese hosts was the disdain that Americans had for Elon Musk. They only get the PR sanitized version of him, so they think of him as being a modern Thomas Edison. While across the Great Firewall and the language barrier, us Americans get to see him up close and personal and end up hating Musk.

>>2813111
There is a part of me that recognises every society has elites and wishes our current ones were better at PR. I'd like to live in a world where Musk was an amusingly geeky tech visionary rather than manifestly being little more talented than me, addicted to low status low autism score right wing slop, and of substantially worse taste, and the difference between these two worlds is just keeping the cunt off twitter. (That would also steer him more libertarian than nazi as a bonus) The manifest lack of elite taste under capitalism is one of the major aesthetic appeals of alternative systems. I can handle inequality (something I often forget) but the rulers can't be manifest cretins.

>>2813147
It feels like it’s a fairly new circumstance with Musk where he’s connected himself with the general public in a public forum. Previously you’d not find out how unremarkable the wealthy are, because they’d hide from being too public for fear of people discovering exactly that.

I can only imagine Musk broke rank with that to get into flamewars online where he invariably comes off worse, because he is unironically a moron and arrogantly believes he is in fact remarkable.

>>2813147
> I'd like to live in a world where Musk was an amusingly geeky tech visionary rather than manifestly being little more talented than me, addicted to low status low autism score right wing slop, and of substantially worse taste, and the difference between these two worlds is just keeping the cunt off twitter.
nobody likes to talk about this anymore, but this is basically how many americans thought of musk during the obama years

>>2813237
this is going to sound very soy and reddit, but I think we need a new Engels. A capitalist, perhaps even a billionaire, who openly uses his platform to say "look, I'm just a regular guy. I'm not a genius or a maverick. I didn't earn any of this. I just own property and exploit labor. Don't listen to the people who glaze me."

>>2813242
Yes but that’s not Musk. Musk has an obsession with the letter X, he names his shit X (x.com, SpaceX, his son with the weird name has an X in it) because X supposedly represents the “unknown variable” whose value changes the calculation for all else.

Literally the guy is fucking looney tunes with the ego.

>>2813250
>Yes but that’s not Musk.
Of course not. I hope it didn't come off like I was suggesting that LOL
>Literally the guy is fucking looney tunes with the ego.
Yes

>>2813250
I see what happened here. I meant for >>2813242 to be a reply to >>2813147

>>2813111
i wonder why he is promoted in china?

>>2811996
>the destruction of that era was driven by the government mandating it as part or short sighted economic policy.

It still happens dude.

https://plantbasednews.org/culture/ethics/why-farmers-dumping-milk-sewers/

>>2813317
musk begged the US government for protectionist policies to defend his cars from the superior chinese competition

>>2813948
>Not only has there been a fall in demand for milk (with less being consumed in classrooms as the school year comes to a close), but processing plants are unable to deal with the rising amounts.
>The state of Wisconsin is the biggest cheese producer in the US, and 90 percent of its milk is made into cheese. This means that it needs to be processed, but plants are full up and cannot take on the excess milk. Most farmers are not able to process their own milk, meaning they rely on plants to ensure the product gets to market.
this does not sound like a problem you could resolve by giving the milk away
>An increasing number of US consumers are moving away from milk over ethical, environmental, and health concerns. Despite this, however, the US government is still handing out billions of dollars in subsidies each year to the dairy industry. Experts have stated that in doing so it’s supporting an “unsustainable” industry.
and "short sighted economic policy" remains part of the equation.

>>2811686
>destroyed instead of given away in order to stabilize prices
This is true.
>>2811731
>the actual operation of milk markets is substantially more complicated than this
This is getting lost in details.

The following holds IN GENERAL in capitalism, it's not specific to a company or an industry: The goal is NOT to produce as much as possible at the price that covers cost, the goal is to maximize profits. When following that goal, it can be a better strategy to destroy some of the output rather than lower the price enough to be able to sell it all. The limit to lowering the price is not the point where the business breaks even, the limit is at a higher price point. And the destruction of stock is only the tip of the iceberg that is capitalist inefficiency, because this is the fallback strategy for when the capitalist overestimated demand. It is of course more profitable to not even produce the stuff just to destroy it. (And if cost of storage and destruction is high it makes sense to err well on the side of underproducing.) So what happens if capitalists estimate demand well is underemployment and underproduction.

In socialism the goal will be changed to produce the amount as close as possible to the demand at the price that covers cost: Producing a bit above or below that quantity can be taken care of by storage buffer, bigger discrepancies can be managed in various ways, the most obvious (and IMHO more elegant than other options like waiting lists) being price adjustments. These discrepancies are handled in a more symmetric fashion than in capitalism. The discrepancies in either direction are regarded as failures. When the produced quantity at cost-covering price is below demand, the raised price is first of all used for rationing purposes. The raised price is no reason to celebrate at the factory, neither for the bottom of the hierarchy nor the top. The raised price is evidence of a failure. It is certainly not used to pay a bonus out of that to people whose task it is to estimate demand. When there is over-supply, the stuff is not destroyed, instead the price is lowered below production cost.

The factory in socialism will not be a self-financing entity.

>>2814224
This is basically a very good post to which I see little to add, so don't take the shortness of my reply as dismissive or either of these questions as an attempt to "gotcha" you:
  1. who do you propose sets prices and how?
  2. if the answer is firms and consumers much as now, how do you imagine their general incentive structure functioning? e.g. absent profit and higher incomes as the motivation for pairing price and supply in a particular way, is the motive prestige, or ideological commitment, or a more limited form of differential compensation, or what?

>>2814264
Can be done by algorithm tracking inflows & stock levels & outflows with human override. Similar items are grouped and treated together for this (so it's not distinct firms doing their own thing). The humans in the loop are just doing a job. They may get a performance bonus based on how close their estimates are to how consumers actually behave. An increased price is for rationing, the increased price is not a source of additional wealth going to whoever sets the price higher in order to keep a little bit of stock in the buffer. Likewise lowering the price is not a source of distress for the price modifiers because their income does not come out of these sales. They look out for keeping the buffer within certain limits and try to set the price accordingly.

>>2814224

You mean a break even entity. Its finances will be used by a state bank in according to directives & norms established by the state planning committee & its suborgans.

>>2814079
>this does not sound like a problem you could resolve by giving the milk away
it certainly couldn't be resolved profitably which is the whole problem with capitalism. you overproduce to outcompete the competition, but then destroy the surplus because giving it away is unprofitable. it keeps happening. This has been thoroughly documented since the 1790s.

>>2814457
what do you propose to do with unprocessed milk when every milk processor in the state is at capacity? this isn't even a "keeping prices high" problem, it's a "the product is literally useless due to a supply chain bottleneck" problem.

you wouldnt even have food if it wasnt for him lmao. imagine being this ungrateful

>>2814661

Sounds like a situation whereon milk processing capacity (& perhaps transport) needs to be increased, no?

>>2814683
wow. he invented farming? I'm hearing this now for the first time.

>>2814748
depends on whether milk suppliers are overproducing and milk processors are meeting demand accurately, or whether milk suppliers are meeting demand accurately and milk processors are underproducing.

>>2814774
see engels on rodbertus >>2811930

>>2814774

Your framing is a bit weird because its treating final demand as if it counts for all stages of production. But demand for raw milk comes from milk processing & the latter's demand comes from final consumption. This is how it is dealt with in standard neoclassical as well, so this is even stranger if you acting as a higher level pro-capitalist troll.

In the USSR they used material balances to make sure that the outputs of an upstream sector matched the inputs of a downstream sector the other.

Therefore, assuming your example takes place under conditions of that kind of basic socialism, its highly likely that milk production capacity was expanded before milk processing capacity (maybe wrongly? processing & transit should usually be setup before production to reduce initial waste, unless some large initial buffer stocks are needed)

This is especially so because cows/sheep/etc. are a form of capital stock and therefore capacity, and it makes little sense if processing capacity & output was meeting final demand to already have had oversupply of milk sheep/cattle/etc.

>>2814985
>In the USSR they used material balances to make sure that the outputs of an upstream sector matched the inputs of a downstream sector the other.
In traffic engineering they do this to anticipate saturation between adjacent intersections.

>>2811601
>elon musk has roughly $455 for every second he has been alive
I've pointed out similar things and retard lolberatarians actually use that as an opportunity to say "well this proves the labor theory of value wrong" as if it were a labor theory of compensation LMFAO


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