๐ฝ UNITED STATES POLITICS ๐ฆ
>Thread for the hellish discussion related to the scourge of the earth, the destroyer of nations, the king of coups, the sultan of sanctions, the emir of the embargo, the autocrat of austerity, the doge of deregulation, the baron of busting unions, the prince of privatization, the lord of loan sharks, the patron-saint of proxy wars, the sponsor of settlers, the guarantor of genocides, the Divided $nakkkes of Amerikkkaโข
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https://www.hueylong.com/programs/share-our-wealth/huey-longs-share-our-wealth-speechPrevious Thread
>>2858423 Stop fighting the status quo, you just reinforce it and make it stronger through oppositional dialectics
every day i wake up and smile because i know im not a yank
>>2859553>Stop fighting the status quo, you just reinforce it and make it stronger through oppositional dialecticsbig if true
>>2859557>every day i wake up and smile because i know im not a yankcool
every day I wake up and smile knowing people overseas are dying and not me or my own, the cheaper stuff is good too
JD Vance has declared his resignation and will be resigning on july 16th
<A full arms embargo on Israel is very popular right now, and politicians have noticed. This has resulted in the 'Block the Bombs' act, H.R.3565, supported by people like Bernie Sanders, AOC, and the DSA - but this bill is not only not an arms embargo, IT ALSO BLOCKS NO BOMBS. It's all a scam to mislead you. Here I explain how.
I watched this video. It seems he is correct, but he does not say what to do instead. He simply says stop trusting DSA, they aren't actually doing anything. Block the Bombs doesn't block bombs. But if all other parties are just democrat sheepdogs like DSA, and there is no militant org that practice joe slovo vo nguyen giap thought, what is to be done?
>>2859563Make a real workers' party.
>>2859567There are no real workers anywhere in the world, let alone America, itโs either that or proletarians are actually the class enemies of communism even more than the bourgeois
https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2026/07/a-democratic-socialist-revolution-is-exactly-what-we-need-to-save-america/oh fuck… oh god, top rated r politics says succdems will SAVE america…. wtf…. we're supposed to DESTROY it, not SAVE it… wtf…
>>2859567<Make a real workers' party.with what money
with what people
by what means
turn it into a step by step process
also explain why you haven't done so yet
>>2859565arent they the avakian cult
>>2859570Theyโre the trotskyists
>>2859557>>2859560Israelis think both these things at the same time
>>2859563Do what you can to sabotage America and make Americans suffer so that multipolarity can blossom
>>2859579Hail comrade fentanyl, hail comrade alcohol, hail comrade cocaine
>>2859591The GOP and the New York Post will stop him, no need for us to do anything
>>2859591Also mayor of new york is a poison chalice, no one who gets elected there has a career afterwards
I'd let him make third world babies with me (if I were a woman)
>>2859596You can be a woman whenever you want, itโs called hormone replacement therapy
>>2859579>Do what you can to sabotage America and make Americans suffer so that multipolarity can blossomwon't multipolarity just lead to another world war since multipolarity implies multiple capitalist blocs competing to become the new unipolar hegemon? and can my sabotage actually make the richest and most powerful americans suffer? or will it simply hurt the americans at the bottom of the burger reich totem pole?
>>2859616
They hit the pentagon!!! THEY HIT THE FUCKING PENTAGON!!
>>2859579>Do what you can to sabotage America and make Americans suffer so that multipolarity can blossom>>2859580>Hail comrade fentanyl, hail comrade alcohol, hail comrade cocaineThere is a recurring tendency within revolutionary politics to greet every crisis with optimism. Inflation rises, wages stagnate or fall, housing becomes unaffordable, ecological collapse accelerates, governments become increasingly reactionary, and someone inevitably declares that these are "good." Not because they are good in themselves, but because they are believed to contain the seeds of revolutionary transformation. The suffering of the present is interpreted as the midwife of a liberated future.
This tendency is neither confined to the political left nor unique to the twenty-first century. Throughout the history of capitalism, socialists, anarchists, communists, fascists, liberals, and reactionaries have all, at different moments, imagined catastrophe as politically clarifying. The wager is simple. The contradictions of society intensify until they become unbearable, forcing people to abandon old illusions, confront reality, and take action, lawful or otherwise.
Whether this wager is correct remains one of the most difficult questions facing revolutionary politics. The phrase "things have to get worse before they get better" expresses an intuition rooted in historical materialism. If the existing order continues to satisfy enough people's immediate needs, then those people have relatively little incentive to overthrow it. Reform appears preferable to revolution. Stability reproduces consent. Capitalism is not static. It generates recurring crises. Falling profitability, unemployment, debt, environmental destruction, imperial conflict, housing shortages, and declining public services are not external accidents but recurring features of the system itself. From this perspective, worsening conditions expose capitalism's inability to meet human needs. This is not obviously irrational. Revolutions rarely emerge during periods of widespread prosperity. They tend to occur during crises.
Yet this observation immediately confronts a second one. Most crises do not produce revolution, they produce exhaustion. Misery is not consciousness. The assumption that suffering naturally radicalizes people confuses necessity with possibility. Material hardship creates grievances. It does not automatically create revolutionary consciousness. A worker facing eviction may join a tenants' union. The same worker may instead blame immigrants, or become politically apathetic, or devote every waking hour simply to surviving. The crisis itself determines none of these outcomes. Organization and political education does.
History repeatedly demonstrates that identical material conditions can generate socialist movements, fascist movements, nationalist movements, religious revivals, or complete political collapse. Misery explains why people become dissatisfied. It does not explain what they become.e
Within sections of the revolutionary left there exists an aesthetic attraction to collapse. Every recession becomes "the final crisis." Every financial panic becomes capitalism's death throes. Every ecological disaster becomes evidence that history is accelerating toward rupture. There is understandable emotional appeal here. If one believes the existing system and everyone born into it is fundamentally irredeemable, then every failure appears as confirmation. But this perspective risks transforming human suffering into political symbolism. The bombing of a hospital is no longer primarily a tragedy. It becomes evidence. Mass layoffs become objective conditions. War becomes proof that contradictions are sharpening. The people actually experiencing these events can disappear behind theoretical categories. Marxism insists upon understanding history materially. That obligation extends to suffering itself. Real people do not experience crises as dialectical developments. They experience hunger, debt, trauma, disability, and death. If revolutionary politics loses sight of this, it risks becoming morally indifferent to precisely those whose liberation it claims to seek.
Another version of the argument claims that workers in wealthy capitalist countries possess too much comfort to become revolutionary. According to this view, declining living standards are politically necessary. Only once enough comforts disappear will resistance emerge. There is an element of truth here. Periods of expanding prosperity have often stabilized capitalist societies. Consumer credit, home ownership, welfare provision, and rising wages historically blunted class conflict. Yet the argument quickly becomes too neat. Workers in affluent countries already organize. They strike, they form unions, they resist evictions, they oppose austerity, they participate in anti-discrimination movements, they engage in tenant organizing. None of this requires absolute immiseration. Indeed, one might argue the opposite. People possessing some degree of security often have greater capacity to organize than people working three jobs merely to survive. Political participation itself requires time, energy, health, and community. The completely exhausted worker is not necessarily the most revolutionary. They may simply be exhausted.
Revolutionary debates frequently distinguish between the imperial core and the global periphery. Workers in wealthy nations undeniably benefit from unequal exchange, imperial dominance, and the extraction of value from poorer regions, although the extent and distribution of those benefits remain contested within Marxist theory. Some conclude that the decline of living standards in wealthy countries is historically unavoidable as global inequalities become harder to sustain. This may be descriptively plausible, but a descriptive claim differs from a normative one. To argue that standards of living will decline is one thing, to celebrate, encourage, and accelerate that decline is another. The left has long criticized ruling classes for treating human beings as expendable instruments of history. It should hesitate before adopting similar reasoning itself. The suffering of workers in one country does not become emancipatory simply because workers elsewhere have suffered longer. Internationalism demands solidarity, not competitive immiseration.
Perhaps the deepest problem with accelerationist thinking is its tendency toward historical automation. The assumption is "More contradiction equals more crisis, therefore more crisis equals more resistance, and more resistance equals revolution." History offers no such guarantee. Societies have endured astonishing levels of deprivation without revolutionary transformation. Others have collapsed into an even more reactionary politics. Contradictions do not possess political direction, human beings provide direction. Accelerationism attempts to resolve political frustration by embracing speed. If capitalism generates crises, perhaps those crises should intensify. If institutions are collapsing, perhaps they should collapse faster. If reform merely delays transformation, reform itself becomes counter-revolutionary. Different forms of accelerationism arrive at different conclusions. Some see technological development as the engine that ultimately undermines capitalist relations. Others argue that capitalism should be allowed or encouraged to exhaust itself through the intensification of its own contradictions. Still others, from entirely different political traditions, embrace acceleration because they believe crisis creates opportunities for transformation, emancipatory or otherwise. What unites these otherwise divergent approaches is a suspicion of stabilization. Order becomes the enemy, disorder becomes productive. Does History Have a Speed Limit?
One question accelerationism rarely answers is whether political development can actually be hurried. Capitalism already possesses extraordinary tendencies toward acceleration. Financial markets operate instantaneously, production is globally integrated, climate change advances rapidly, information circulates continuously, precarious employment expands, debt compounds, supply chains stretch across continents. The system scarcely appears in need of additional momentum. Indeed, much contemporary politics concerns managing the consequences of acceleration rather than overcoming stagnation. If capitalism already destabilizes itself at remarkable speed, the revolutionary problem may not be insufficient crisis, it may be insufficient organization capable of acting within crisis. Perhaps the central strategic divide is not between stability and crisis, but between expectation and preparation. Expectation waits for conditions. Preparation develops capacities regardless of conditions. Instead of simply interpreting crises, we must organize through them. Revolutionary movements historically succeeded not because suffering automatically generated resistance but because groups capable of transforming dissatisfaction into collective action already existed when crises arrived. Without these, crisis often produces fear and reaction instead of solidarity.
There is also a psychological attraction to believing that worsening conditions necessarily advance liberation. It transforms despair into hope, every defeat becomes secretly a victory, every setback becomes historical progress. Reality may offer no such consolation. Bad things may simply be bad. Factory closures may strengthen capital. Wars may entrench reaction. Climate disasters may destroy communities rather than radicalize them. Governments may consolidate power rather than expose their weakness. The proposition that "things have to get worse before they get better" contains an important insight and a dangerous temptation. The insight is that stable systems often reproduce themselves through relative legitimacy, and that crises can expose hidden contradictions while opening political possibilities that previously seemed impossible.
The temptation is to mistake possibility for inevitability, or worse, to interpret human suffering as intrinsically progressive. From a revolutionary working-class perspective, neither complacent reformism nor romantic collapse offers an adequate politics. Reformism assumes capitalism can indefinitely soften its contradictions. Collapse assumes those contradictions automatically generate emancipation. History suggests neither is true. Crises create openings, but those openings have to be prepared for in advance through organization. Whether those openings become revolutionary depends not on the severity of suffering alone, but on the capacity of ordinary people to build collective institutions, develop political consciousness, and act together. Bad things are not good, nor are they meaningless, they are historical moments whose political content is not predetermined. That uncertainty is precisely what makes revolution both necessary and difficult.
Hot Take: an American socialist revolution will end up keeping the constitution and just add amendments instead. Too troublesome to change and pretty much is a blank document that can be interpreted such as "for the general welfare" preamble. Also is still vastly popular with most politicians and institutions seen as failing the constitution rather than the issue is the constitution itself
>>2859629Itโs not going to happen, Americans enjoy the status quo and when they complain theyโre lying
CUM ON MEXICO, SCORE MOTHER FUCKERS
>>2859658>Americans enjoy the status quo and when they complain theyโre lyingi looked at the truth o meter and you're wrong
>>2859461Third-worldists have always been self-hating westerners, feds, or misanthopes dressing their rhetoric in "leftish" sounding language.
Stop being spooked.
>>2859683
>You are imperialist devil who knows its end is nigh
funny. in another thread that same text was accused of being "third worldist"
>>2859614Do the people yearn for an unelected vanguard? Fuck me. Seeing this type of thing always makes me question my Demsoc nature
>>2859630did you really believe the post
>>2859569there was a communist revolution in china, yet china still exists. really makes you think
>>2859711And yet I still won't cheer for them.
>>2859699frfr, we should have a mandatory questionaire for all voters to see their position on various issues and then recommend them a candidate based on that. or just do direct democracy. representative democracy as it exists today is a farce
>>2859720Why even bother with any form of democracy? Policies are objectively good or objectively bad. Governments should be set up to do what is best, not what majority thinks looks cool because it was a trend that season.
>>2859724>Policies are objectively good or objectively bad.what is your criteria for "objectively good"
>>2859724>Policies are objectively good or objectively badnah. something that is good for workers is bad for owners and vice-versa. class dictatorship matters.
>>2859726Long term survival of the species, increasing length of individual life, increasing quality of life.
>>2859729>class dictatorship matters.Didn't say otherwise. Capitalism is an objectively inefficient system that holds humanity back. Good government would get rid of it.
>>2859739I predict you'll go out to Spain in the quarter finals. Maine status = forgotten.
>>2859711I am going to laugh if despite Trump's intervention the US still losing to the Belgians
>>2859579Multipolarity is a meme because unipolarity has been a traceable phenomenon only for 15 years.
>>2859591He's already stopped by the structural limits of the state and progre$$ives who supported him to the hilt will suffer a loss of legitimacy anyway
>>2859624/accelerationism
>>2859760Not a burger. I'm just not coped out on 10 natlib struggles
You know, what has the DSA and etc. said concerning China? I first thought to look up Berniebro's take, let me share it.
https://www.sanders.senate.gov/op-eds/washingtons-dangerous-new-consensus-on-china/Washingtonโs Dangerous New Consensus on China<Donโt Start Another Cold War>By: Bernie Sanders; Foreign AffairsBut the real enemy to multipolarity is the DSA.
>>2859614this raises an interesting question - does mandatory voting actually help citizen consciousness of their politics or will it just result in more extreme cases like this
people alienated from capitalism will not have the time to properly research candidates after all
>>2859766I mean, I don't feel exactly how China feels about Taiwan, I think Taiwan is very really its own entity and nation. I think the only issue in my mind is it's obviously very aggressive to use Taiwan as an FOB for the US military. I think a neutrality could be reached and that would be the best for everyone. If Taiwan eventually wants to reincorporate with China so be it. That's how I feel. Taiwai is obviously a very more real country than Tibet.
>>2859769>I mean, I don't feel exactly how China feels about Taiwan, I think Taiwan is very really its own entity and nation."i mean, i don't feel exactly how america feels about the confederacy, I think the confederacy is very really its own entity and nation"
that's how you sound right now
>>2859769The US government has pushed for years for a war with China, selling billions of dollars of weapons to separatists in Taiwan. However, those plans are falling apart, after the leader of the KMT, the Chinese Nationalist Party based in Taipei, took a historic trip to the mainland, promoting peace. Ben Norton explains the importance of Cheng Li-wun's meeting with Xi Jinping, and the complex political history of Taiwan.
Topics
0:00 KMT leader visits Beijing
1:28 US "prickly porcupine" strategy
2:09 KMT, Chinese Nationalist Party
2:48 Taiwan's ruling party DPP
3:27 Nancy Pelosi visit
4:17 Taiwan's DPP supports Israel
4:42 Fears of new Ukraine
5:22 US war plans
6:22 US arms sales to Taiwan
7:09 USA uses Taiwan as proxy
8:12 (CLIP) KMT leader on Ukraine
9:08 Is Taiwan the next Ukraine?
9:28 Elections results in 2024
10:12 Lai Ching-te is unpopular
10:54 Iran war hurts Taiwan
11:48 Energy crisis
12:27 TSMC and advanced chips
13:45 Neoliberalism
14:10 Developmental state
14:54 Economic insecurity
15:14 Trump tariff threats
15:48 Beijing does not want war
17:12 Beijing opposes separatism
18:06 UN: Taiwan is part of China
18:50 One China policy
19:46 Map of Taiwan recognition
20:05 List of Taiwan recognition
20:45 Cross-strait relations
22:19 Rising trade
23:13 One country, two systems
24:31 US military bases
24:58 Peaceful reunification
25:27 Poll: Taiwan independence
26:09 Future leader of Taiwan?
26:48 Divisions within KMT
27:27 Modern history of Taiwan
29:05 Chiang Kai-shek
29:41 Democracy?
30:46 Cold War One propaganda
31:39 Sun Yat-sen
34:40 Historic step for peace
36:14 Outro
>>2859776Taiwan is its own separate country for as long as the CPC has existed as well, there isn't an equivalency. I don't think Taiwan as an independent nation matters to China matters to China past the fact that it's an American FOB like I said. I hope they reintegrate and I hope that Taiwan and Hong Kong serve as points of integration between the West and China.
>>2859781>Taiwan is its own separate country for as long as the CPC has existedNo… the KMT lost the civil war to the CPC and fled to Taiwan in 1949. It's literally just a holdout for the losers of the Chinese civil war. The PRC was declared in 1949, and the entirety of the United Nations has recognized this for decades, including the US and its butthurt allies. The US only began talking like this was never the case in the last decade, doing massive historical revisionism that you've apparently bought into.
>>2859782Taiwan was originally the officially recognized China at the UN. Anyways, as you said, Taiwan has been an independent country for almost a century. You're not concerned with the rights of the indigenous people of Formosa, you're just concerned with some mythical believe that the CPC has the rights to the island when they have never had any connection.
>>2859784>Taiwan was originally the officially recognized China at the UNuntil what year hotshot
>>2859784> You're not concerned with the rights of the indigenous people of Formosawho gave it the name Formosa
>muh heckin indigenous peoplethat's not who controls taiwan right now. who controls taiwan right now is the losers of the chinese civil war who the USA supports. any recgonition of taiwan province's "independence" is just an arm of burger reich foreign policy lol.
>>2859785I didn't say until the current year genius. I have said that Taiwan was never part of Communist China and has no connection. It has been an independently operating country for almost a century. The people of the island have the right to do as they please.
>>2859776If the confederacy ran away to puerto rico and the mainland belonged to the union would you care? Not asking this to bait
>calls taiwan "formosa," a portuguese colonizer name>recognizes the losers of the chinese civil war government>pretends to care about muh heckin indigenous islanders while recognizing the lordship of the losers of the chinese civil war over them>pretends taiwanese independence in the current geopolitical context will funciton as anything other than a proxy of the USA>pretends taiwan was "independent for a century" when it was literally under japanese rule 1895-1945this mf
>>2859789<If the confederacy ran away to puerto rico and the mainland belonged to the union would you care? Not asking this to baityes I would care , especially if someone was saying confederate-controlled puerto rico deserved its independence on account of "muh heckin indigenous puerto ricans" who do you think you're fooling with that shit. btw puerto rican nationalism is absolutely justified in our case because it's not a confederate holdout. they either need statehood or independence, not this weird middle state where they're a territory with no political representation.
>>2859791
>, I said you don't even care about any concept like that has any validity.
you didn't even ask me about it, you just weaponized it out of nowhere as if taiwan currently was some indigenous controlled government. fuck off. it's a holdout for the losers of the chinese civil war. if it were actually some autonomous indigenous zone (china has those btw, tibet is literally an autonomous zone, so is xinjiang) that would be one thing, but everyone knows what it is, and how it is used, and by whom. then you revealed you didn't know jack shit by calling it by its portuguese name, and vaguely alluding to the period of japanese fascist colonization as "independence" (What?!?!?!)
>>2859793>you didn't even ask me about it, you just weaponized it out of nowhere as if taiwan currently was some indigenous controlled government. Not what I said at all. You didn't get it because you have no knowledge of the situation in general. You have no argument past: I support Communist China!
>>2859792
no, it was pretty much not independent at all for the entire century prior to the losers of the chinese civil war fleeing there. 1863-1895 was qing dynasty rule, 1895-1945 was japanese rule, 1945 onwards was ROC rule. before the Qing the dutch east india company had a commercial outpost there. what years were muh hecking inigenouse taiwanese ever "independent" name the exact years you were alluding to . you cant because that period didnt exist and you made it up for this conversation where you dont know anything
>>2859794> you have no knowledge of the situation in general.holy projection. you literally alluded to a century of taiwanese independence which never fucking existed. name the years they were independent. 1500s to 1863 was european colonial rule, 1863-1895 was qing dynasty rule, 1895-1945 was japanese colonial. Where is this mythical century of taiwanese independence prior to ROC ?
>>2859796
>But it was never under CPC rule and it has now been existing independently
INDEPENDENTLY? motherfucker the indigenous of taiwan are not independent. they are literally ruled by the losers of the chinese civil war. i have said that several times already. that's why it was so baffling you brought up "muh indigenous independence"
>>2859796
>the current country has nothing to do with mainland China.
it's literally a bunch of mainland chinese right wing losers who lost their civil war and fled to an island where they ally with the west and serve as a proxy of western imperialists, wtf are you talking about it has nothing to do with the mainland. in fact the metaphor of the confederacy living on puerto rico is perfect. it's exactly like that. now imagine if not only did the confederacy still live in puerto rico, imagine if china gave them money and weapons. that is what the US is using taiwan for.
>>2859801
what's also laughable is that if taiwan were an autonomous province of the PRC, it would likely be given actual indigenous autonomy like xinjiang and tibet. but under the ROC, it's just a bourgeois holdout for the right wing han chinese who lost the civil war against the communist han chinese.
>>2859802>>2859803>>2859804>what's also laughable is that if taiwan were an autonomous province of the PRC, it would likely be given actual indigenous autonomy like xinjiang and tibet. Perhaps perhaps. My original point has just been a distraction, I'm saying I would recognize the CPC's claim even less than the argument of returning it to the indigenous population. I think I provided a fair compromise, which is neutrality and withdrawal of offensive weapons, and I guess in return recognition of Taiwan's sovereignty. I think Taiwan like Hong Kong would be a good place to facilitate positive interaction between China and America and the West in general.
>>2859805>I think I provided a fair compromise, which is neutrality and withdrawal of offensive weaponsbut why would the USA ever do that. that's not something the US does. imagine trusting any claim of the USA? look at all the promises the USA has made and reneged on recently.
No I think the CPC claims to Taiwan are fair, not as a form of violating the sovereignty of the indigenous there, but as a form of reintegrating this defeated faction of reactionary Chinese who fled there.
>>2859808
>I don't believe China will launch an invasion of Taiwan
the way the UN looks at it, this is impossible because the UN recognizes Taiwan as a province of China. so an invasion of Taiwan by China is not really possible in the UN's view. But if you don't care about the UN's view, I also don't think it will happen, because the current KMT leader is nominally softer towards the mainland than previous leaders.
>>2859807why didn't they just finish the job? no navy?
>>2859811
Nukes are a nothingburger. Conventional weapons in the quantities the US is able to produce them and has in stockpile are plenty to level the world. Nobody is going to blow up the planet in a military conflict, the US is going to keep having little gang wars like in Iran.
>>2859816>Nukes are a nothingburger.I agree in the sense that the US can't wage war against nuclear armed powers.
>the US is going to keep having little gang wars like in Iran.Yes. The closest it ever came was Cuba and the USSR was about to deploy tactical nukes against the US and they thought the US wouldn't choose the flip the board option but I wouldn't count on that.
Eagerly waiting for CPUSAnonโs first LLM-generated post of the day.
>>2859863Shut the fuck up and actually do something with your life, Felix. Pathetic freak.
Patriot Front in Washington D.C. on July 4th.
They seem to be very disciplined and organised, from the metro cards, to the shields and uniforms, almost paramilitary like. But it is likely to be unpopular with the public, relative to the overly militant image, however like other fascist groups, have done propaganda around aid.
The American Left should continue to focus on legal means, such as elections and national political organisations, like the DSA as the largest example, and smaller ones like PSL or CPUSA (who should be absorbed). This neo-kautskyist or leninist method of socialism through democratic means, seems to be a slow but sure method.
However black bloc tactics clearly do not work in the west, or other civic tactics against the fascists.
You Americans, are privileged to have a level of freedom, that would allow you to form similar uniformed organisation(s) (separate from the likes of the DSA, PSL, CPUSA).
There exists a few left gun clubs, like the John Brown Club and Socialist Rifle Association, who educate on firearms training and also do mutual aid; but at the least these groups could be mirror uniformed organisations, just as disciplined, to the patriot front, standing opposite them, just as a threat without committing any action, and if shit goes down, they are not the first to fire or bludgeon.
Best of luck, you Americans seem to have the best left (i.e. the DSA and the communists inside it), in the western hemisphere.
>>2859875Federal agents do tend to be well organized
>>2859875>>2859877>โPatriotโ frontHey, maybe the ACP can get them to join
>>2859807kinda insane that communist china didn't join the U.N until late 1971
>>2859888How is that hard to believe? They had only existed as a state for 20 years at that point. There were a lot more important things to focus on like solidifying domestic governance. Plus it takes a while for the dust to settle and the international community to accept your claims of legitimacy
>>2859766Fuck this Zionist cunt and all her simps. Passing herself off as a socialist when her boyfriend literally runs a multimillion dollar liberal โsatireโ propaganda outlet
>>2859894the british recognized the soviet state after just seven years. existing for 20 years outside the international community because some idiots on washington thought the ROC is true china is insane to me yes
Regarding the popularity uptick of the DSA, let us recall some facts.
The RSDLP as a whole also consisted of Bolsheviks, Mensheviks, the Jewish Bund (from 1906), the Polish Social Democracy (SDKPiL), the Latvian Social Democracy, and smaller groups. Estimates for the total party are approximate but generally agreed as follows:
<1905
Perhaps 20,000โ30,000 total members. Bolsheviks numbered ~8,400; the Menshevik faction likely held a similar or slightly larger number. The Bund, not yet formally reunited, had its own mass membership (around 30,000) but was not fully part of the RSDLP until 1906.
<1906
After the 4th (Unity) Congress in Stockholm, the reunited party (including the Bund) reached roughly 70,000โ80,000 members. Bolsheviks themselves reported ~13,000.
<1907
Peak membership: around 150,000. At the 5th (London) Congress the main components reported:
Bolsheviks: ~46,100
Mensheviks: ~38,000โ40,000
Jewish Bund: ~33,000
Polish Social Democracy (SDKPiL): ~25,000
Latvian Social Democracy: ~13,000
<1908โ1912
Collapse to a few thousand. Police repression destroyed the mass organisations. By 1909โ1910 the entire RSDLP (all factions together) probably numbered no more than 5,000โ10,000 active members, operating in tiny underground cells. The Bolsheviks were a diminished fraction of that, while the Mensheviks and the Bund likewise suffered decimation. When the Bolsheviks formally broke away in 1912 to form their own party, the remaining โRSDLP (Menshevik)โ organisation was also very small โ comparable to the Bolsheviksโ 5,000โ10,000. The Bolsheviks, for example
Petrograd: 8,000 (1907) โ 3,000 (1908)
Moscow: 500 โ 150 (1909)
Yekaterinburg: 1,070 โ 250
Ivanovo-Voznesensk: 2,000 โ 600
<1912 - 1917.
Data unavailable. It's estimated that the party's size before 1914 was between 5,000 and 10,000
<Feb 1917
23,600. Just before the February Revolution, the party was a small, disciplined underground organization.
<April 1917
79,000.
<July 1917
240.000
<Oct 1917
up to 400.000
>>2859765Hitler said he was antiwar. Hitler say he socialist. Hitler lied. Bernie same. Bernie funded iron dome, but imperialist dickrider devil like you dont care because he made lofty words for your simple mind. Bernie blames china for yank problems as pretext to be anti normalization
https://sandersinstitute.org/event/rep-bernie-sanders-opposes-permanent-normal-trade-relations-pntr-with-chinaBernie against normalization for decades
>>2859913So you're saying that getting "backstabbed" by the establishment is a necessary precondition and catalyst for further radicalization and militancy of the organs of revolutionary vanguard consciousness?
Wow, it's almost as if that's the entire point of the DSA and "futile" attempts at "legitimacy" in left-wing electoral strategy: struggle is necessary for growth, and there isn't usually a viable way to leapfrog these steps, even if it means "libbing out"
>>2859932Can you show me where I said something like that? I'm just posting interesting data.
DSA is claiming to be the โlargestโ โsocialistโ party in American history.
>>2859934If you're unable to abstract my conclusion from your example, idk what to tell you
>>2859936Your conclusion? So it's not me saying it? Are you arguing with yourself?
>>2859913What does this have to do with the DSA? They more closely resemble the Cadets than they do the RSDLP, including all its menshevik and Bund members. The RSDLP was a working class party, with explicitly revolutionary aims, the DSA is not working class, not a party and not revolutionary
>>2859931>Hitler said he was antiwarI don't think he did.
>>2859942If anything theyโre closer to the most reactionary of the Black Hundreds
>>2859935Itโs not even the largest national socialist party in American history, that prize goes to the Democrats. Which the DSA is just a puppet of, so in a way itโs true
People here really have a black and white reading of things, god damn. For all the hate given to international campism, there's no criticism of intellectual campism on the site.
>>2859945He did. Hitler was a liar first and foremost before anything else so of course he promised peace nonstop.
>23 March 1933"The German nation wishes to live in peace with the rest of the world"
>7 May 1933"It is, however, in the interests of all that present-day problems should be solved in a reasonable and final manner. No new European war could improve the unsatisfactory conditions of the present day. On the contrary, the application of violence of any kind in Europe could have no favourable effect upon the political or economic position which exists to-day. Even the ultimate effect would be to increase the disturbance of European equilibrium and thus, in one manner or another, to sow the seed of further conflicts and complications. The result would be fresh wars, fresh uncertainty, and fresh economic distress. The outbreak of such infinite madness, however, would necessarily cause the collapse of the present social and political order. A Europe sinking into Communistic chaos would bring about a crisis, the extent and duration of which could not be foreseen. It is the earnest desire of the National Government of the German Reich to prevent such a disturbing development by means of its honest and active co-operation."
>18 October 1933"Nobody here desires a repetition of war. Almost all we leaders of the National Socialist Movement were actual combatants. I have yet to meet the combatant who desires a renewal of the horrors of those four and a half years."
All quotes from The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939. London: Oxford University Press, 1942
>>2859913Some extremist minority wing of the DSA will seize power after the socdems discredit themselves like kerensky did BET
Chinese troops on the verge of taking San Francisco like the germans on the outskirts of Petrograd
>>2859947Yeah I was thinking that as well, but went with the Cadets to give them a more fair shake. They're not violently suppressing communists in the name of the preservation of the duopoly (yet), they're just trying to reform the duopoly (almost as bad, if not worse)
>>2859950Iโm sorry that weโre not all polite towards militant genocidal anti-communists. Maybe you have the wrong website? Hexbear might be more your speed if you love social fascism with a revolutionary glaze
>>2859950>intellectual campismWhat is this supposed to mean?
>>2859955I would say the Gaza genocide was pretty violent
>>2859950Trotsky was an intellectual campist
>>2859957Itโs when you donโt think the rest of the world should be burnt to the ground so the golden billion keeps their standard of living
>>2859960That's fair, but I was more talking about actions at home. Black hundreds were killing socialists in the streets yknow. While the cadets didn't have much of a problem with such things, they didn't get their own hands dirty in that regard. It's all the same though in the end
>>2859963isn't that just regular campism? What makes it intellectual is what im asking
>>2859967Thatโs only because America doesnโt have a meaningful proletarian base and never will, otherwise you could bet that DSA death squads would be cooperating with the police to hunt down torture and murder communists
>>2859951Didn't he and the Nazis also openly extoll the virtues of war and say that it was a good thing in general?
>>2859970Bro forgot that COINTELPRO was (and is) a thing.
>>2859970>Thatโs only because America doesnโt have a meaningful proletarian base and never willEssentialism helps nobody and is anti-marxist. Idk about a concrete class analysis of the united states, but I wouldn't say there's no proletarian base, that seems unreasonable for such a large country. It's not Dubai yknow
>>2859970>Thatโs only because America doesnโt have a meaningful proletarian base and never will>never willIf the US loses this cold war, they'll have to industrialize?
Though I hope to see an USA which doesn't. A subcontinent wide rust belt sounds amazing to behold.
>>2859981>>2859983>>2859992Why do you care so much about the wellbeing of yanks?
>>2859956>militantAll they do is electoralism.
>genocidalWhat genocide are they participating in?
>anti-communistYou can be an open communist and join though. There are numerous Marxist caucuses.
they thought this was a rabbit ๐
>>2859956hexbear talks more like you than the average user here
>>2859956wait I thought everyone on THIS website was militant genocidal anti-communists except for you, now it's the other way around? this is actually the based TRVE marxist leninist website and everyone who disagrees with you is just a person who has the wrong website? which is it today? will you ever take your meds?
>>2859936Your conclusion is that history is a mechanical process which will work the same way every time, despite material differences.
This is anti-Marxist and anti-Materialist. The material conditions of 21st century late capitalist America are radically different from Tsarist Russia. The DSA is not a political party. The RSDLP was. The DSA are strictly legalist. The RSDLP was illegal for most of it's existence and maintained covert structures up to and including combat organizations. The RSDLP was explicitly revolutionary and aimed to overthrow Tsarist autocracy. The DSA is explicitly reformist and aims to preserve the Capitalist system with some slight modifications. The DSA cannot change this without fundamentally becoming a new, entirely different organization.
The only hope for the DSA is that it ceases to be the DSA, and becomes something entirely new. There is no hope to their strategy, their absolute best case scenario is that maybe in 50 years they have enough of a voting bloc to force medicare for all on a dead planet. Their most realistic scenario is that they remain a legislatively irrelevant caucus of the Democratic party forever, or eventually collapse into Blairist third wayism as they are subsumed by the money and power of the system.
>>2860025This. There is no proletarian base in the United States and its โworking classโ overwhelmingly benefits from imperialism. The DSA including the โMarxistsโ in it are fully aware of this and think itโs a good thing, their only objection is that the imperial spoils arenโt being evenly distributed. And yet people will get triggered if you call them out for the fascists they objectively are!
>>2860025Didn't the RSDLP only become really revolutionary after the failed 1905 revolution and the split between Bolsheviks and Mensheviks? In any case I'd say they have much more in common with the SPD than any Russian organization from that period.
>The DSA cannot change this without fundamentally becoming a new, entirely different organization. This is a mentality I don't fully understand. Everybody here readily acknowledges that a once revolutionary party can decay into revisionism and reaction. Nobody will deny that these trends existed among the SPD, the CPUSA, even the CPSU. However nobody ever seems to accept the possibility that the opposite can happen, that an organization can become more militant, radicalized, and revolutionary over time.
At any rate, I won't pretend that the DSA isn't riddled with problems. Their strategy of entryism within the Democrats is almost certainly a dead end (the best case scenario there is that the DNC launches a large scale purge of the party and the DSA takes a substantial portion of the Democratic base with them when it leaves), they don't have a coherent line and their tent is too big, their whole approach of supporting candidates but not being a party leaves them in a weird limbo, they seem far too averse to direct action or anything other than electoralism, etc. All that being said, this is the first case of a self-described socialist organization making serious headway in American politics, and one which allows open Marxists and anti-imperialists into its ranks. I don't think the DSA itself will accomplish much in its current form either, but I could see it as an incubator for something more serious and potent. At this point a confrontation with the DNC is inevitable, and that experience will either radicalize the organization itself or at least elements within it that can form the nucleus of a serious party. Given that there is currently no rules in the DSA precluding membership in other parties, I would recommend American comrades to get involved while still working with PSL, CPUSA, your union, or whatever other group you're partial to. At the very least there can be no harm in making connections with other socialist minded people, and ideally you may be able to bolster the radical wing of the organization.
it's another episode of
>hey I think we should stop giving money to israel because they are using it to genocide people. that money would better be spent building hospitals and schools here than bombing hospitals and schools over there.
<heh. social fascist. you just want a redistribution of the imperial spoils to the herrenvolk.
it's just mossad posting from a basement in tel aviv.
>>2860040Yeah, letโs โreformโ the NSDAP from within and turn it Marxist using magic! Fucking retard
>>2860048>the DSA is more like the NSDAP than the pre-split RSDLPok mossad.
>>2860048Unironically tell me how you think the DSA is comparable to the Nazis.
>>2860047glossad fell silent
>>2860040>the best case scenario there is that the DNC launches a large scale purge of the party and the DSA takes a substantial portion of the Democratic base with them when it leavesYes and this is the point of the DSA strategy, whether official or not. Those Marxists in the DSA know this. This is the vehicle and the reason for participation. It's the main way forward right now, to heighten contradictions and get the attention of the masses. Pretty straight forward
>>2860062
on a scale of 1 to 10 how houngry is kyle today
>>2860061At this point I'd settle for them to tell us what such a party would hypothetically look like and do.
>>2860061Why donโt you ask your friends at Langley?
>>2859995I said nothing on the subject of Yank wellbeing
>>2860012Selling vapes is a pretty chill job tho
>>2860069ok so why do you even bother trying to educate and agitate us if you think we're all social fascists and CIA agents. like what is the point for you.
inb4
>hound you to suicide >>2860074That looks more like a convenience store than a vape shop.
>>2860047>>2860053nah he's just selectively ignoring that one
>>2860075Hand out pamphlets and post on the internet
>>2860075To hang out, be yourself and have a good time
>>2860075For the same reason Marx and Engels consistently wrote against Bakunin and Proudhon, the same reason Lenin rebuked the renegade Kautsky
>>2859875They do this shit to create fake pictures to make it seem like they are more organized then they actually are. Patriot Front is pathetic and is a fed honeypot.
>>2860061>you have 5 seconds to tell me what is the true proletarian revolutionary party that is against social fascism and herrenvolk social democracy which wants to engineer a crisis to bring about the end of imperialismThere isn't one. YOU have to make it but YOU won't because you are objectively a settler-kulak who gleefully and openly lives off the blood of third world children.
>>2860047>If you call out my Nazism you're a Jew!Typical of the spoiled shityank settler kulak.
>instead of bombing schools and hospitals we should build themHow convenient that you believe the latter isn't dependent on the former. Every school and hospital you shityanks bomb translates into more stolen wealth for you to build your own schools and hospitals. Every ounce of prosperity you experience comes at the expense of an ounce of prosperity elsewhere.
>it's not heckin zero sumYes it is. That is why you must be destroyed, and never ever confused for an "ally."
>>2859904>Porky knows they fucked up with China big time China is not a free market economy. We tried. We let them into the World Trade Organization. We sent businesses over there. We made trade deals. They are a controlled top-down economy. You will never compete and win against them, unless you take back the means of production.
- Hillary Clinton, interview with Chatham House (2021)
China has found a way to use capitalism against us, and what I mean by that is the ability to attract investment into entities that are deeply linked to the state.
- Marco Rubio, interview with Face the Nation on Jan. 29, 2023
Capitalism Didnโt Change China โ China Changed Capitalism!
- Marco Rubio, Senate speech, Mar 2, 2023
>>2860046>thank god honestlyYou should be concerned it even got as high as 20%. Keep in mind that no one is that blunt about that belief and hide it under "US citizenship".
>>2860088Considering Trump's gestapo is like 70% fuck you I got mine Latinos I can believe it genuinely being that low.
>>2860089>Considering Trump's gestapo is like 70% fuck you I got mine LatinosThose same Latinos are subs towards whiteness so it isn't that far off
https://redstarcaucus.org/communists-belong-in-dsa/I have once again yet to see a proper rebuttal to actual active MLs saying to join the DSA
>>2860098Fuck off with this absolute horseshit
>>2860097
didn't you just say there is no proletariat? who is it then? some imagined, bloodthirsty proletariat from india?
>>2860102Nodd an argumend :DDDDDDDDD
>>2860097
>all talk
>>2860116
>Stamps REEEEEEEE UR A FASCIST IF YOU THINK IM DUMB off my bingo card
>>2860117
>thought terminating cliches
Yeah yeah more internet addict narcissist yammering from wrongschizo
Bitches will really be like "join the DSA? That pales in comparison to my strategy: murder a grocery store clerk!" and then not murder the grocery store clerk
>>2860121Felix and wrongschizo are extra mad that their bait doesnโt work anymore
>>2860117
you hit dogs? sick fuck
I'm starting to think these posts are just roleplay erotica he writes for himself. There's no other explanation.
makes me laff knowing fedlix registered his gun with the cops. the larp is unreal
>>2860127Probably with the way he bust a nut everytime he says CPUSAnons government name
>>2860127See, I thought I was depraved when I came up with a joke shitpost about Robocop using a cyberdildo on Pepper Potts.
Nah bruh this is some advanced depravity heโs in
>>2860133he is trying to pr-empt bejmain netanyahu's release of the Platner files.
>>2860133Video footage of Graham Platner committing war crimes are about to get released
>>2859956>Iโm sorry that weโre not all polite towards militant genocidal anti-communists. Maybe you have the wrong website? Hexbear might be more your speed if you love social fascism with a revolutionary glaze>>2860013>hexbear talks more like you than the average user here>>2860035it is not uncommon to see "social democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism" as a highly upvoted comment, especially if the threads is about some stupid shit a reformist or succdem said on twitter.
>>2860131A misconception, he's actually inadvertently threatening to kill a nice young boy named Miles Prower, who's friends call him "Tails"
>>2860040So again, your "solution" is that MAYBE in 50 years you have the "nucleus" of a serious party.
We don't have time for that. Climate change is already causing widespread drought and famine. By the time it starts to really effect the west it's already going to be too late.
Either we overthrow the US Government within our lifetimes (overthrow, not moderately reform) or we face human extinction.
You are such a coward that you will gladly choose extinction over fighting back, despite the fact that you are in a unique position to do so. You do nothing with your military training except lord it over other people.
>>2860081Those guys offered alternative lines and organizations though. They didn't just wine impotently about how everything and everybody sucks.
Felix we've already told you not to bother coming back here without the head of CPUSAnon or proof of a blown up factory. Dont make this more embarrassing than it already is
>>2860061>you have 5 seconds to tell me what is the true proletarian revolutionary party that is against social fascism and herrenvolk social democracy which wants to engineer a crisis to bring about the end of imperialismThe GOP, but accidentally
>>2860040>Didn't the RSDLP only become really revolutionary afterNo, it was founded as a revolutionary party with explicit revolutionary aims, quite unlike the DSA
>>2860156Why did the SRs have such a kick ass logo?
>>2860158They didn't have any real method of actualizing revolution until 1903, before then it was all talk which is about the level the DSA is now
>>2860149>So again, your "solution" is that MAYBE in 50 years you have the "nucleus" of a serious party>50 yearsNo things are heating up to the point the country has a max of a decade. People have been slowly radicalizing since 2008 as conditions haven't improved and the political system is allergic to reform. The young generation believes that violence will be needed for change and pretty much have only boomers who are the most well off saying that won't happen and the ship is fine. Socialism and even Communism being used as buzzwords to end all debate is slowly being done away with. The incompetence of the ruling class alongside declining conditions since the 1980s is a recipe for something mass to happen
>>2860165>Socialism and even Communism being used as buzzwords to end all debate is slowly being done away with. only because they are changing the definition of socialism into reformism
>>2860165Literally give it two years and we'll have our party nucleus
>>2860149>We don't have time for that. Climate change is already causing widespread drought and famine. By the time it starts to really effect the west it's already going to be too late.It already does so by your logic (which I don't agree with) it's already too late. I literally saw a video 3 years ago of thousands of cattle dropping dead of heat exhaustion in summer in Texas. They all had to be butchered as quickly as possible and most of them went to waste. There is crop failure and soil depletion and warmer winters everywhere, not merely in the equatorial regions of the "global south" (a term that is fascinatingly misleading in its geographical inaccuracy)
Prediction (pessimistic): The US government will be overthrown, not by "social fascist" DSA members or by "True marxist leninists" (they don't exist since they are an impossible standard for a westoid to meet) but by actual fascists like patriot front or proud boys. The US government will triple down on ethno-nationalism but will recede from the world stage. "Multipolarity" will bloom but will prove to be a farce. "Free trade" will collapse and all countries will be forced to become "self sufficient". This will lead to a period of basically universal Juche style self reliance mixed with ethnonational zionist kibbutz style "socialism." Neofeudal schemes will tie neo-peasants to agriculture since countries will be forced to produce surplus, but neo-peasants will double as neo-proles through digital office jobs. Basically they will grow crops for the state but also be responsible for digital maintenance of statistics. Hyper surveillance will prevent people from hoarding or hiding what they produce. Climate change will make everything harder to grow, the end of free trade will mean that all countries become isolationist and produce for themselves, and ethnonationalism and hyper surveillance will create a self reliant neofeudal national socialist dystopia in each country with its own characteristics. Each country will become an open air fallout vault.
>>2860169It was already too late 30 years ago, but we can't change that. We can only make due with the time and the conditions we're given.
We don't have 50 years to slowly march through the institutions like the DSA reformists want. We have to destroy the US government and we have to do it now.
>>2860174nice post apocalyptic book bro
>>2860174>but by actual fascists like patriot front or proud boysThis is even more less likely to happen. Your more likely to have an American Putin than an ethnonationalist patriot front or proud boys taking over. Not to mention the difficulty of subdueing all 50 states under that format
>>2860153How long 'till he releases a video like Chris-Chan where he kills me in Soul Calibur?
>>2860083I've said it before, but unironically the Republican party are Socialism's greatest propagandists. By having the most repulsive people on earth crow that anything good in the world is "communist" they're just making the concept more popular. I'd even say they're more of a boon then some actual communist propagandists at this point cause they'll claim healthcare is communism while Leftists would call it reformism.
>>2860174>patirot front or proud boysyou mean the retards who do nothing but play dress up and march around?
oh yeah, they totally are going to overthrow the government.
tard
>>2860193The minute I saw Patriot Front and Proud Boys I feel that anon watched too much edits. On the ground, they are pretty much dead from their peak in the late 10s and early 20s. If anything Socialism is gaining a lot of momentum
>>2860194im still wait and see on if the DSA can take over the democrat party or replace it.
I feel like the realistic option if america is ever on the verge of some sort of revolution or collapse is the CIA or some sort of millitary junta takes over, as someone else said, we get our own putin.
>>2860195Typical descendant Of Spaniards or other white settlers but probably a mestiza seething over not being able to own slaves.
>>2860098>DSA has by far the most members of any socialist organization in the US. The membership size is core to one of DSAโs most critical strategic assets: its ability to test its ideas against reality. This is borne out in DSAโs many experiments in contesting political power. For example, Las Vegas DSA attempted to take over its county and state Democratic Party and succeeded at winning a majority of the executive board seats. Ultimately, this was proven ineffective, which we now know definitively because we tried it. Scientific socialists believe knowledge comes from a cycle of deliberation, decision-making, implementation, and then review to inform further decision-making. DSAโs size allows its use of this cycle to be much more effective than any other currently existing socialist organization because itโs large enough to try ideas other organizations can only discuss.Watch "scientific" """socialists""" on this board get uppity over this reasonable take.
>>2860149>So again, your "solution" is that MAYBE in 50 years you have the "nucleus" of a serious partyActually I'm saying the opposite of that, that the American left is finally re-emerging not just in terms of rhetoric and ideas but in terms of actual organization and mobilization. At least enough to make our enemies notice and mobilize against us. In fact, I'd argue that the DSA has accelerated the pace and intensity of class struggle more than any other group since the end of the USSR, maybe even since the days of the Black Panthers. Whats your alternative? Join one of the little micro parties that has been spinning its wheels for decades? Start a new one and add it to the list of irrelevant nobodies? How could that possibly be faster?
>Either we overthrow the US Government within our lifetimes (overthrow, not moderately reform) or we face human extinction.You say this like it's a question of willpower and not a complex web of objective and subjective conditions. Sorry Anon but the government won't collapse just because you show everybody on the internet how radical you are. You need a crisis that paralyzes the state apparatus, you need a working class organization with enough experience and popularity to take advantage of such a crisis, and you need a proletariat with sufficient class consciousness to at least passively support a revolution. Currently we have none of those things, and even though that's starting to change you're here to diligently remind us that actually it isn't changing and we should just isolate ourselves instead being productive.
>>2860202>>2860098I have already debunked this several times over but since you're willfully ignorant I will do so once again.
DSA's structure makes it's size irrelevant. It is not a political party. It does not have a coherent ideological line which can be enforced on it's membership. It cannot put all of it's weight towards any one project and march in lockstep, rather everyone is free to do whatever they want. DSA members can (and do) actively undermine other DSA members projects and absolutely nothing will happen because the DSA is structurally nihilist (AND THIS IS BY DESIGN) due to it being a pressure group on the Democratic Party rather than a real political party.
Furthermore, the absolute best case scenario for this sort of "experimentation" is that MAYBE in several generations you have a bloc able to form the nucleus of a new party, which can split from the DSA and take some of it's membership with it (the rest will likely go to the Democrats)
What then? You have an extreme minority political party which would probably be smaller than CPUSA and have an even more revisionist line. How does this help us, practically?
It doesn't.
It's too little, too late, and that is absolutely intentional.
No "Marxist" inside the DSA is a serious person. They are just LARPers of a different, less effective kind. It would literally be more effective (probably by leaps and bounds) to just do adventurist terrorism.
DSA is compromised by design. None of you "historical materialists" will reckon with DSA's unique history because to do so is to totally undermine your own "arguments" to the point of irrelevancy. DSA is designed to fail because DSA is designed to be a pressure group on the Democratic Party. To do ANYTHING else with DSA would mean totally remaking the party to such an extent that it is no longer the DSA, with a small minority of it's membership.
This is not difficult to understand, but none of you actually want a revolution or the destruction of Capitalism, you just want a more comfortable life for yourselves. That is why you simp for the DSA, because that is what the DSA promises and can credibly provide. More for you, while the world burns and dies. This is the goal of Social Democracy, and the ONLY thing it can provide.
JD VANCE WAS JUST SHOT DEAD
>>2860212>will drop them afterKek they will do no such thing. Just like the fascist little bootlicker Timmy Massie is always already going to name the rapists in the Epstein Files…any day now
>>2860214I guess Platners progressive grift won't work. Maybe he'll find another grift.
>>2860209>It does not have a coherent ideological line which can be enforced on it's membership.That's not entirely true, since it does have mechanisms to discipline and expel members based on ideology. For example you can now be expelled for supporting Israel's "right to self-defence". I agree though that overall their approach is too broad, their tent is too big. However that's exactly the kind of thing that could he resolved by building up the radical wing of the movement and trying to establish a more coherent line and stricter rules.
>>2860212>>2860214whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? the USA veteran with ties to Israel couldn't be trusted????? no waaaaay. who could have seen this coming??
although, given what they've said before, why wouldn't the hasan piker left just say
>we must allow for redemptionand shit along those lines. i mean they've completely embraced notorious pedophile Agent Kochinski in their circle so why the fuck not
>>2860209Noticing you didn't actually address any of the points in the article in the slightest, just restated your own thesis in spite of it being debunked time and time again. Almost like you would rather just fight people on a dying leftist website than do anything effective
here it is
https://www.politico.com/news/2026/07/06/graham-platner-sexual-assault-allegation-00987737Racicot told POLITICO she connected with Platner on the dating app Bumble in 2019 and had consensual relations with him prior to the night he allegedly assaulted her.
That night in late 2021, she said she had exchanged text messages with him and told him not to come over, saying she wasnโt in the mood for company. Later that evening, she said she realized when she heard a sound on the stairs that he had let himself into her house, which was unlocked.
Platner came up the stairs, Racicot said, to where she was on a couch. He got on top of her and kept grabbing her, she said, while she repeatedly told him to stop and that she wasnโt interested. Racicot said she smelled alcohol on his breath and believed he was โalmost blackout drunkโ because Platner ignored her protests and continued to grab her after knocking over an antique sewing kit, spilling small needles everywhere.
โI had been telling him these words, like: โNo, donโt,โโ she recalled.
โAnd, the look on his face and realizing what was happening, I just realized that, like, I am in a situation where thereโs no consent here,โ she said.
Racicot said she tried to separate herself from Platner by telling him she couldnโt be in that room anymore, after which he followed her to her bedroom and had sex with her against her will. She said he also ejaculated inside of her despite her telling him not to, as she was not using birth control at the time.
She went to clean herself up, she said, and when she returned, Platner had fallen asleep. She contemplated waking him up to kick him out, but worried he could hurt someone driving in the state he was in.
The following morning, she said, Platner tried to put his arm around her and she pushed him away. She said she asked him whether he remembered what had happened the previous night; according to Racicot, Platner said he didnโt remember. Racicot said she told him to leave and never contact her again.
>>2860223>>Racicot said she tried to separate herself from Platner by telling him she couldnโt be in that room anymore, after which he followed her to her bedroom and had sex with her against her will. She said he also ejaculated inside of her despite her telling him not to, as she was not using birth control at the time.I wonder if she contacted authorities and got a kit after that
>>2860206>Actually I'm saying the opposite of that, that the American left is finally re-emerging not just in terms of rhetoric and ideas but in terms of actual organization and mobilization. No, you're not saying the opposite of that, you're just a coward who cherrypicks parts of arguments while ignoring the rest and then shifts the goalposts constantly when cornered because you're fundamentally a nihilist with no clear ideological foundation. This is why you simp for the DSA.
>At least enough to make our enemies notice and mobilize against us. In fact, I'd argue that the DSA has accelerated the pace and intensity of class struggle more than any other group since the end of the USSR, maybe even since the days of the Black Panthers. DSA does not represent class struggle in any meaningful sense, because DSA is almost universally drawn from a bourgeois milieu. They do not want a dictatorship of the proletariat, they just want the comfortable life they were promised when mommy and daddy paid for their college. There is no working class basis to the DSA, there is no real power beyond a handful of legislators who, by design, can do nothing even if they believed in anything (and to be clear, they absolutely do not) and there is no real structure to the organization. DSA is as much an idea as an organization and it will crumple and collapse at the earliest sign of opposition.
>Whats your alternative? Join one of the little micro parties that has been spinning its wheels for decades? Start a new one and add it to the list of irrelevant nobodies? How could that possibly be faster?Mix legal and illegal tactics with the explicit goal of the overthrow of the United States government within our lifetime.
>You say this like it's a question of willpower and not a complex web of objective and subjective conditions. If no one does anything, as you propose, then nothing will ever change. Someone, somewhere, has to take the first step.
>Sorry Anon but the government won't collapse just because you show everybody on the internet how radical you are. You are right, it will only collapse when a real, tangible effort is made to discredit, diminish and destroy it at every possible opportunity using all tactics available, rather than trying to reform and preserve it as the DSA proposes.
>You need a crisis that paralyzes the state apparatus, you need a working class organization with enough experience and popularity to take advantage of such a crisis, and you need a proletariat with sufficient class consciousness to at least passively support a revolution. Said crisis has only emerged, historically, from a foreign invasion or a crushing defeat in a total war. Neither of these are credible scenarios for America, and so we must improvise. The crisis has to be internal.
>Currently we have none of those things, and even though that's starting to change you're here to diligently remind us that actually it isn't changing and we should just isolate ourselves instead being productive.No, I am arguing that we should actually try to overthrow the government instead of working to preserve, stabilize and reform it.
Now watch you quote one sentence of this entire post and smugly pretend you've "debunked" the entire thing by moving the goalposts again, rather than going point for point like I do. You debate with the same courage that you fight with.
>>2860221Notice how I debunked the main point at length while you continue to simp for a reactionary reformist organization that was specifically founded to destroy the American left.
>>2860218>although, given what they've said before, why wouldn't the hasan piker left just say Hasan Piker will be like "who among us hasn't committed rape in a foreign country?"
thank goodness the soKKKdem is gonna lose now, now i can refocus on important business like sitting in my armchair and doing nothing
>>2860229he's going to shame his audience for being outraged at this story. he's gonna say
>look at who is boosting this story!!! it's AIPAC zionists! (it's not)he's also going to blame his audience for the harm this will do to the popularity of his "leftists" movement. he has engaged the "the democrats can't fail they can only be failed" mentality. the proper lesson to learn is to pick better fucking candidates. don't run bioluminescent weirdos. but no, he'll shame anyone not towing the line as an ultra tankie TWist
>>2860214Lesson learn, juat double down and call it fake news
>>2860234
demokkkrats basically are republicans
>>2860228>because DSA is almost universally drawn from a bourgeois milieuProve it, and show me how any existing party is different.
>They do not want a dictatorship of the proletariatThe Marxist caucuses within it do, and they say so explicitly.
>Mix legal and illegal tactics with the explicit goal of the overthrow of the United States government within our lifetime. Vague to the point of being meaningless, and also not original in the slightest. Virtually every irrelevant micro party has said the same thing.
>rather than trying to reform and preserve it as the DSA proposesIf reform is even a possibility then revolution is impossible. If reform is impossible then efforts to implement it will inevitably give rise to revolution. However in order to even get to that point you need an organization capable of applying pressure, and as of the moment they're the only game in town.
Once again you offer no alternative, just sweeping generalizations and vague allusions that amount to "just do a revolution".
Can't believe DSA would endorse Platner.
>>2860228You didn't even address the main point, just repeated your thesis and maybe examined one paragraph that someone else quoted even when the article already refutes your arguments
>>2860238
Platner is bob saget confirmed
>>2860247he relies on people being too tired to notice
>>2860212>>2860214Americans are so fucking weird. What will it take for your average Burger to learn if you served in the US military there's like a 99% chance you did rapes or other war crimes? Even if not you're still doing evil on behalf of Pissreal, weapons manufacturer, and other scum.
>>2860214That's apparently not it, it's sexual assault of an ex-girlfriend. It's over for the Oystergropeyfuhrer though. Same as what did in Swalwell.
>>2860239He denied but is "taking time to reflect on the campaign" which means he's dropping out basically.
>>2860249Uh oh you committed the cardinal sin of referencing pop culture, get ready to hear about how the Powerpuff Girls is fascist neo-feudal dreck
>>2860252>What will it take for your average Burger to learn if you served in the US military there's like a 99% chance you did rapes or other war crimes? true but also that same logic applies to all militaries going back to the bronze age. militaries are just places that you put young and psychotic men to get them away from everyone else, and then you give them the job of terrorizing some place far away so they won't terrorize the domestics.
>>2860254it's true though. professor utonium is basically dr. mengele.
>>2860242You are the same moron who began arguing in this general that critical analysis of the Minnesota protests was tantamount to defeatism
Nothing you say should be taken seriously
>>2860257Your "critical analysis" thus far as amounted to impotent whining with no alternatives or solutions. That's defeatist by definition.
>>2860253I will say drunkenly violating your girlfriend's consent is a little bit different than Swallwell's explicit predation on multiple young staffers. But obviously it will still sink the campaign.
>>2860253>He denied but is "taking time to reflect on the campaign" which means he's dropping out basically.hes cooked.
>>2860256>>2860254Heard they rebooted the show and had one of the writers (a grown ass man) voice and depict a character that one of the girls had a crush on. Fucking weird.
>>2860255Fine. But what's unique is our a slightly diminishing capacity for non-stop war. Also the fact its all for Saudis, Jizzsrael, various porkies. Basically nothing that actually helps us back here.
How much of a degenerate does a politcian/revolutionary have to be so you wont support them guys
>>2860265I wouldn't support a gay or trans revolutionary
>>2860261I remember when the reboot came out and I tuned out approximately two episodes in when the same "Buttercup has to learn how to be angery again" plotline got recycled. Christ what a garbage pile
>>2860265I support exclusively gay or trans politicians
>>2860255There is an ancient Chinese proverb that says "Good iron does not become nails. Good men do not become soldiers."
It's as true today as it was back then. Anyone who willingly volunteers to murder people for money is an absolute psychopath, at best.
>>2860263
>Their own membership numbers show that nearly 90% of the party is college educated and wealthy.
Most young people are college educated, it's not equivalent to being wealthy (especially since it comes with massive debt). Additionally every other party is the same way, and will inevitably the the same way because all movements begin with intellectuals. Even the Bolsheviks were a minor party of intellectuals for most of their existence prior to 1917.
>because the party has no internal structures or discipline (by design) and cannot impose a meaningfully Marxist or anti-imperialist line on it's membership
They've already made it an expellable offence to support Israel's right to "self defence". What you're saying here is just factually incorrect.
>The American system CAN be meaningfully reformed
If that's the case then revolution is impossible. It's a simply as that. Revolutions only happen in situations where the ruling class is so paralyzed that they can't find any solution within the existing system. Bit the only way to find that is to push it to its limits.
>Lenin said the same thing
He did, and we all agree on that. My point is that it's not a solution, and it hasn't borne any fruit in the last hundred years. It hasn't allowed any of the micro-sects playing at vanguard to make any progress or experience any meaningful growth. The only one that has is DSA, and while I agree that they need to massively diversify their tactics, at the moment they're the only group in the country with both a meaningful following and internal space for openly revolutionary organizing. Once again you aren't providing any good argument for why any of the existing parties or forming a new one would be faster than organizing inside the DSA. At the very least doing so will allow us to have some actual reach.
>>2860230based if unironic
>>2860264well that's a good thing. maybe the US left will finally evolve past TWisters vs. Treatlers.
>Graham Platner drops out
>Troy Jackson, the most likely democrat to replace him, is endorsed by the DSA unlike Platner
TRVST THE PLQN
>>2860275>is endorsed by the DSA unlike Platnerbut leftypol dot org, the most reliable news source, told me that DSA endorsed platner?
>>2860268I was more a Billy & Mandy and Invader Zim kid growing up, admittedly. Thought the Zim movie they released on Netflix was pretty alright.
At least Samurai Jack's reboot was pretty solid (though it flagrantly ripped off Gurren Lagann at the end)
>>2860276disgusting people
>>2860271>Even the Bolsheviks were a minor party of intellectuals for most of their existence prior to 1917.This is such a false comparison of incomparable circumstances and a misrepresentation of the underlying contention of the argument that it's ridiculous
Continue sucking off the DSA
>maine senate race is between 80 yr old with health issues and vet with sketchy sexual past
the fact that this race was free and open to any serious candidate means its only the marxists fault for not taking advantage of the opportunity for a free senator
>>2860281Lenin himself said that intellectuals always form the nucleus of the vanguard, and it only then expands outward into the general proletariat.
>>2860280that's a tweet about trump from 2016, edited, lol
>>2860283Again, a false comparison and misrepresentation of circumstances to defend the petite bourgeois reformism of the DSA
That morons labelling themselves Marxist Leninists have attached themselves to the outfit is of absolutely no consequence
I am just posting this thinking out loud: I decided to look back into DSA today because of all the claims and chatter about them here. I am not unfriendly to them. I see their site says the economy and society should be run by 'working people' which I take to include the semi/self-exploiting petit bourgeois, and wonder what abolish ice means: does DSA take over the economy/society and then abolish ice, or work with other parties? What does it get replaced with?
but the important one is the bourgeois press howling and seething about them w the same rhetoric: marx was wrong, muh gorillions, muh lazy entitled kids. This is all over The Hill, National Review, New York Post. I think it's great. I think they are in fear.
Not saying dsa is the real movement at all but they are some sort of movement, actually getting in office (inb4 reformist shill), putting an alternative in the discourse. So I don't know what else there is besides very marginal groups. So when dsa is brought up in the porky paper, is this good or bad? Is dsa's visibility a success or a distraction from hard core communist ideas? I say this as bc I only started reading marx when obama was called a marxist back when. And I had to search and develop my ideas for years. Experience now tells me that most people arent very critical or curious. So I can see how giving the dsa visibilty could be a subtle tactic against actual socialism.
>>2860286
Factory status?
>>2860283the DSA is at best social democrat i.e. welfare capitalist not socialist
>>2860282i said a million times that any random construction worker off the street would have been a better candidate than platner and was called a zionist for it
>>2860289>you want to stop bombing other people, but have you considered that the economy would still be capitalistyes
>>2860263
>Their own membership numbers show that nearly 90% of the party is college educated and wealthy.
is this not literally true for most parties in general? and being college educated doesn't mean wealthy either, it just means you have an education, likewise that's a significant portion of the population with revolutionary potential, and on the wealthy part, is this also not exactly odd either? most communist or socialist parties did not have a primarily proletarian membership, most of them were petite-bourgeois, even aristocratic membership
>>2860287capitalist A attacking capitalist B does not make capitalist B socialist
>>2860292at least you admit you're a social fascist
>>2860294true but inter porky fighting is funny. let them fight
>>2860294words have meaning and you have a duty to use them responsibly you imbecile
>>2860290remember when we found out he had a nazi tattoo and worked as a merc for black water and people on here were like, come onnnnnnnnnnn give him a chance.
lol
BREAKING NEWS, MITCH MCCONNELL HAS OFFICIALLY BEEN ANNOUNCED DEAD
…that's right, dead serious about going to Itchy & Scratchy Land!
>>2860295stalin: social democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism
also stalin: I must work with people far to the right of social democrats like roosevelt and churchill to stop fascism
maybe i recognized that succdems succ but are preferable to libs and conservatives?
>>2860289this doesn't mean it doesn't have potential, which it factually does, list 10 other social democratic orgs with open communists and socialists in them, name a better choice, and so on
>>2860285how is this remotely false? objectively speaking most people willing to join a party are going to be educated, it says nothing of class position at this point to whine at it
>>2860300
i'm not even talking about DSA. platner wasn't even DSA. he ran as a democrat. my point is any random person would have been better. you seem kind of stupid tbh
>>2860303fighting in a war is not the same thing as supporting a capitalist political party
>>2860223If Aziz Ansari can survive doing basically the same thing, Platner will walk away from this unscathed
>>2860304it doesn't have potential
>>2860305Felix is very stupid, also more importantly he still has yet to fulfill the conditions of being unbanned
>>2860306true. i am persecuted by annoying trolls like you.
>>2860310care to explain why other than handwaving at it being "bourgeois" and "social democratic"?
>>2860303its arguably worse then libs and conservatives because it gives would be revolutionaries a false sense of security
>>2860223not even the first accusations against him in the race. watch as maine voters dont give a fuck in the polls like usual
>>2860313Because some of them went to college, which makes you a Nazi automatically even though something like 40% of Americans have a college education
>>2860302How do I get big red letters?
>>2860304It's a false equivocation with education standards and historical obfuscation of the fact in order to mystify the role the DSA plays
It's a pointless argument that this moron refuses to detach from for the sheer personal utility of contending the dull reformist position, in order to maintain some wondrous illusion as to the moral integrity of the proletariat
>>2860308i thought DSA isn't a political party but a bunch of caucuses, some of which are marxist, some of which are not.
>>2860313<care to explain why it doesn't have potential other then the very reason why it doesn't have potential??because from the onset it doesn't fight capital it bargins with capital for a comfy life under capitalism rather then socialism. It has a vested interest in maintaining capitalism
>>2860286
>Wrong on all counts, as usual
Non-argument.
>This concrete structure (or rather, lack of such) is something you continually ignore (on purpose)
I'm not ignoring it, I agree with you, and said that this structure needs to change. But the only way for the structure to change is for members to propose, fight for, and implement those changes.
>Revolution is impossible as long as the US government remains stable and cohesive, and as long as we do what you propose (and to be clear, that is nothing)
If the DSA was really "doing nothing" then the Dems wouldn't be calling all hands on deck to crush them. When was the last time the said anything of the sort regarding PSL or one of those parties? What was it Mao said about how it should be a wake up call to socialists if their enemies don't attack them? Besides, if the US establishment had any willingness or capability to reform their way out of their current situation I think they would have done so by now. It's precisely their structural inability to reform that will lay the basis for the radicalization of the workers movement. I'm actually counting on the reformist efforts failing here.
>which will result in a split, and that will defeat the entire purpose of doing this entryism
Actually inducing such a split is the whole aim of entryism. At the very least that seems like a much faster way to produce a serious worker's party than whatever the micro-sects have been doing up to this point.
>>2860322>If the DSA was really "doing nothing" then the Dems wouldn't be calling all hands on deck to crush them. This is such a ridiculous argument
The nucleus of the Party will be built in the next two years and it will come from the DSA. You can help this process, or you can stop it. Stopping it means going back to sects and irrelevancy. Helping means ending the duopoly and social-democratic reformist illusion of the largest socialist movement currently existing and creating a large, well-organized and well-connected communist fraction, which will, in few more years, be ready to call for dual power.
Or you can whine and shit and piss and cum and barf.
>>2860323makes perfect sense to those with a functional brain
>>2860321because saying "it's social democratic, reformist!!!!" doesn't mean anything when there aren't even social democratic, reformist political parties in the USA, let alone ones with open communist members, who make up a majority of the group, and so on, ignoring this fact and pretending that you have a choice other than the DSA is ludicrous
>>2860323>no uwhere is the [because, reasons]
>>2860324helping means doubling down on the social-democratic reformist illusion in a betrayal of the socialist movement
>>2860324My six person cell of equally psychotic misanthropes will make short work of them, just as soon as I zerzetsung some grocery clerk to suicide
>>2860328again, provide an actual reason for why this still doesn't meaningfully progress socialism and communism forward, rather than just blankly stating it and expecting us to all nod our heads at your amazing insight
>>2860325If you are a retard, yes
It confuses a membership drive with success in the very institution that represses it. You have to be an absolute moron to think this means that you should support the DSA
>>2860326you're literally just handwaving the biggest issue stopping the DSA from ever being socialist. its reformist, reformists do not become socialists because they benefit from capitalism
>>2860329umm castro started the revolution with like 82 people on the boat called grandma, this will work exactly the same way in 2026 in a much bigger country with drones and nukes and face recognition tech
>>2860328You force the social-democrats to implement a rudimentary social-democratic program while a dotb exists. It can't do this. The movement splits between reformists and revolutionaries. This is the blueprint, since forever.
>>2860330again that is an actual reason you are just rejecting it because it makes you mad.
can you actually contend with the critique of reformism or not?
>>2860271>Additionally every other party is the same way, and will inevitably the the same way because all movements begin with intellectuals.
<To my mind, the so-called โsocialist societyโ is not anything immutable. Like all other social formations, it should be conceived in a state of constant flux and change. Its crucial difference from the present order consists naturally in production organized on the basis of common ownership by the nation of all means of production. To begin this reorganization tomorrow, but performing it gradually, seems to me quite feasible. That our workers are capable of it is borne out by their many producer and consumer cooperatives which, whenever they're not deliberately ruined by the police, are equally well and far more honestly run than the bourgeois stock companies. I cannot see how you can speak of the ignorance of the masses in Germany after the brilliant evidence of political maturity shown by the workers in their victorious struggle against the Anti-Socialist Law. The patronizing and errant lecturing of our so-called intellectuals seems to me a far greater impediment. We are still in need of technicians, agronomists, engineers, chemists, architects, etc., it is true, but if the worst comes to the worst we can always buy them just as well as the capitalists buy them, and if a severe example is made of a few of the traders among them โ for traders there are sure to be โ they will find it to their own advantage to deal fairly with us. But apart from the specialists, among whom I also include schoolteachers, we can get along perfectly well without the other โintellectuals.โ The present influx of literati and students into the party, for example, may be quite damaging if these gentlemen are not properly kept in check.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1890/letters/90_08_21.htm >>2860335never happens, not historical precedent for that
>>2860335Nooooo you dont get it they went to COLLEGE! They took multiple courses in being a Nazi treaterlite and learning how to build concentration camps!
>>2860332> reformists do not become socialists because they benefit from capitalismrevolution meanwhile benefits the proletariat by forcing them into a civil war and life or death struggle followed by a period of party power consolidation and self purges… not that I'm complaining. it would be pretty funny to see the USA suicide by revolutionary civil war
>>2860328>helping means doubling down on the social-democratic reformist illusion in a betrayal of the socialist movementthere is no true movement by your standards
>>2860341now you're just changing the subject
>>2860332have you ever heard of the fact that people can and in fact, do tend to change, when that becomes an impossibility? reformism will inevitably prove pointless, which means that the reformists will either have to sit content with their partly changed, but heavily flawed system, or even risk revolutions, seizures of power, etc
>>2860337this isn't a critique against reformism, it's stating something as if it is true, ignoring everything that proves it isn't absolute, it's nothing but handwaving
>>2860338He was high on hopium. Lenin had the benefit of hindsight and observed the tendency of workers to sink into economism without a vanguard.
>>2860345>have you ever heard of the fact that people can and in fact, do tend to changeand i provided you with the reason a reformist party/organization has an incentive to maintain capitalist which you are desperately trying to hand wave
>>2860345>this isn't a critique against reformism, it's stating something as if it is true, ignoring everything that proves it isn't absolute, it's nothing but handwavingyou've provided no argument against it despite this is what we ALWAYS see with the moderate wing of fascism
>>2860344ok now let's drive that home. if there is no real movement in the USA, but the USA is an impenetrable nuclear armed fortress that will just blow up the planet if someone tries to overthrow it from the outside… what then?
>>2860343I'm not the same anon. I'm just pointing out that the reason proles keep falling for reformism is because the alternative is "pick up a gun and go die for a future you won't live to see"
>>2860346Xiaodrich Dengels
>>2860347no you haven't, you just stated it as if it were true, ignoring the fact that reformist organizations do in fact go revolutionary, the RSDLP, even the SPD, so on, all became revolutionary in part because reformism so obviously failed
>>2860348>le moderate wing of fascismagain, argument or assertion?
>>2860351
imagine putting all this effort towards something important or meaningful. that life clock is ticking
>>2860346then his vanguard of out of class elements became social-democratic, shocking
>>2860349thats a different subject entirely
>>2859942>the DSA isn't even mensheviks, it's the kadets>>2859947>no, they're the black hundredslol hysterical. they're mensheviks.
>>2860357people don't just fall for reformism because capitalism benefits them. they fall for reformism because they did a cost benefit analysis and decided they don't want to die today.
>>2860358Bitches be like "I'm an SR, I'm a Kadet, I'm a Menshevik" okay well I'm a creep, I'm a weirdo
>>2860353>no you haven't, you just stated it as if it were truedo you have an argument against it?
>ignoring the fact that reformist organizations do in fact go revolutionary, the RSDLP, even the SPDneither one led a successful revolution sorry. SPD failed miserably because they're losing and it was the Bolsheviks who won the revolution not RSDLP
>>2860353>again, argument or assertion?where's your argument?
>>2860360yeah you're just restating what you just said, ok so what?
>>2860160Its a sick ass logo
>>2860261Aren't most voice actors adults are there any child voice actors?
Like even kids in Jimmy neutron are voice by some adult woman
Once again, none of you are even mentioning DSA's reactionary history. You are acting like this is a Marxist political party when it is, was, and always will be the exact opposite of that. Michael Harrington was explicitly imperialist, anti-Communist, anti-Leninist and anti-"authoritarian" to such an extent that he intentionally created an affinity group rather than a political party because the goal was to beg the bourgeoisie for crumbs while maintaining imperialism abroad. This is what the DSA was founded to do, this is what it does.
History is undefeated, but all you nerds must ignore this because it contradicts your argument for continuing to do nothing.
>>2860364that's all. there's nothing else I had to add. "So what?" isn't even a question. you're just saying you don't care. that's fine.
>>2860367ok you're just stating random facts for no reason, smooth brain
>>2859947>the DSA is hecking pogroming the jewsreally
>>2860366Have fun with your six person cadre of misanthropes that do nothing but post online
>>2860369it related to your post that i replied to. if you're having trouble figuring out why, it's no big deal.
>>2860362>neither one led a successful revolution sorry. SPD failed miserably because they're losing and it was the Bolsheviks who won the revolution not RSDLPthe RSDLP had potential because it turned into the bolsheviks, mensheviks, etc, that's the point
>>2860363that a reformist organization, when it eventually gets pulled to its limits, has a tendency to break off into a group of hardline reformists, or those willing to engage in revolutionary actions
>>2860373>the RSDLP had potential because it turned into the bolsheviks, mensheviks, etc, that's the pointyeah but these freaks don't agree with your thesis that the DSA is the US's equivalent of the RSDLP. they're hysterical and think the DSA is the "black hundreds" (like the KKK) or the kadets (like the democratic party)
Reminder that Felix is such a coward on both intellectual and moral levels that he is completely unable to practice what he preaches. The most he can do is wage an eternal campaign of "zerzetsung" against one grocery store clerk and constantly insists on posting on a website that wants nothing to do with him while demanding everyone do shit that he's too cowardly to do himself. At best Felix is a mentally ill liability to the real movement, more likely he's an agent provocateur who's "job" is doing shit like this on behalf of the FBI. He is not a serious person and never will be
>>2860372sounds like you're having a problem figuring out how to post without being an npc, smooth brain again
>>2860373>the RSDLP had potential because it turned into the bolsheviks, mensheviks, etc, that's the pointno there was no potential they ultimately failed
>>2860373>that a reformist organization, when it eventually gets pulled to its limits, has a tendency to break off into a group of hardline reformists, or those willing to engage in revolutionary actionsyou mean being a lost cause when an actual revolutionary party comes around? or do you mean the SPD that never accomplished anything to begin with?
>>2860377>no there was no potential they ultimately failed>okay… they did actually do exactly what you argued… BUT IT DOESN'T COUNT BECAUSE THEY SPECIFICALLY FAILED….okay?
well it seems dsa has no real plan about what to replace ice with which is…troubling
>>2860292fuck off, these same types still bomb and do fucked up shit
>>2860360major problem of any movement or outlook: having it be worth making sacrifice for. Conditions of survival have weakened everyone's resolve and ideas od what's possible.
>>2860366so he's dead and new critters are moving in to the derelict structure, not that it's immune to social engineering/infiltration
>>2860373>it 'had potential' (in the past)>because of what happens in the futureholyyyy fuck is this a 'leftist' in 2026? a decade ago we had basic logic
>>2860379so they have potential to be incompetent is that what you're saying? well I agree then
>>2860380
in a couple days no one will care or remember this picture anyways because there will be a new current thing
>>2860380
>Basically over for black people
>same shit the media has beeen using to frame black ameriKKKans as criminals
>>2860381>holyyyy fuck is this a 'leftist' in 2026? a decade ago we had basic logicno arguments? let me say it again for you, an organization that starts off as a reformist group, can and has a tendency to spawn/become a revolutionary one, once its strategy of reformism fails
>>2859953i dont see why this logically impossible given how shitty events are and how many people really hate the existing mafia
>>2860380
i really dont care about blacks in ameriKKKa since they just as reactionary as any other craKKKer in that shithole country, but still what you said was retarded
>>2860366And the cpsu went from the largest leading communist party in the world to filled with a bunch of people who" became" right wing nationalists as soon as the calender turned to 1989
Shit changes
What Harrington thought in 1960 is irrelevant to what the dsa does now
Or are the Republicans the same people who fought slave owners in bleeding kansas?
Thinking of joining the DSA
>>2860391According to Felix the CPUSA was always fascist because they didn't execute Browder nor denounce Khrushchev
they're trying to drown out the platner story with their bullshit
>>2860395petite bourgeois party
reminder to not respond to troll or low effort one-line posts, and report them instead. Likewise don't post one-line responses, just wastes the thread. Raising the level of discourse is something we can do and we must.
Thinking of joining the DSA
>>2859547Graham platner might be out? Anyways, the party of labor of America wants you to vote Jack wilimos in November, so the u.s senate gets its first national third party member since 1946. North Carolina to be specific.
>>2860395seems to be the only party making progress atm
>>2860406
Stupidpol in shambles
>>2860413its like two guys freaking out
>>2860410
sources tell me the DSA is still stable
Please Marx
>>2860356it's directly related for reasons that become obvious. if you think the USA has no revolutionary potential and also that it can't be overthrown from the outside, you're basically a doomer.
>>2860351
>This structure cannot change, it is the entire point of the DSA. This is why it was founded by Michael Harrington
Why can't it change? It has a constitution, bylaws, election rules, admin rules, etc. Are you claiming that it has no mechanism for changing any of these? I'm also well aware of Harrington and its history, but I simply don't buy into the notion that organizations are perpetual prisoners of their origins. If revolutionary groups can turn to reaction then I see no reason why the reverse can't happen. Iirc the League of the Just wasn't founded as a revolutionary organization either but Marx and Engels turned it into the Communist League.
>The DSA is specifically trying to reform and stabilize the US government
As I said, the Marxist caucuses are not reformist, and I don't think America is capable of reform, and if it is then I don't think it's capable of revolution. Leaving that aside however, every communist party in history (that participated in electoral politics) had to have an immediate program which is necessarily "reformist" insofar as it proposes short term changes. I don't see the proposal of such short term reforms as a bad thing unless you're going to reject electoralism altogether, but then you're going against both Marx and Lenin.
>It would essentially create CPUSA 2.0, and would likely be no larger or more popular than the neo-Browderists.
Even if that were true, then it would simply put us in the same position that every socialist party in America has been trapped in for like 50 years. So I still fail to see why this I'd an argument against organizing within DSA, since no other party or set of tactics has produced a more promising result. If you're going to argue against working with the only organization showing any growth at all then you need to demonstrate how an alternative would be more effective.
>>2860380
cops will regularly arrest women, rape them, and then write down "indecent exposure" on the arrest form
>>2860420there are plenty of times and places where there is no revolutionary potential for a time, this isn't doomerism its just a fact of reality.
>>2860425shes unfuckable to anyone
(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) >>2860390
>if you get arrested, that means you deserved it, and whatever the cops say is true
yes americans believe this
Why would Platnerโs accuser turn down the NYT weeks ago but just now is revealing it to politico?
>>2860427>ugly people never get raped>rape is about sexual attractionwaiting out a 4pol ban?
>>2860380
Er, why is it ogre? Who cares if she did some weird shit before?
>>2860431because shes an ogre
(USER WAS WARNED FOR THIS POST) >>2860432I've seen more ogrish. Once had a con artist get upset someone called the cops on him so he ran into our store and took a shit on the bathroom floor.
>>2860429Politico is well known for running hitpieces against progressive candidates, they did it constantly in 2016 and 2020.
Anyone who falls for this is retarded and doesn't understand what politics is actually about. More retarded than even the right-wing who gave up the respectability politics spook years ago.
Politicians must act on our behalf to do what needs to be done, who they are as people is irrelevant. Looking purely in causal terms, Susan Collins is far more evil (and capable of further evil) than Platner could ever hope to be even if every accusation against him was true and then some. He could be a serial killer and mass rapist and he would still be better than Susan Collins or Janet Mills. You can either accept this or continue to be manipulated by capital.
>mitch is braindead
>platner is fucked
a fun day to be on twitter
>>2860426if you think there is no revolutionary potential then why complain about reformism
>>2860437do people really libpost here and not get bullied these days
>>2860440because reformism gives people a false sense of security
>>2860418"social democracy is objectively the communist wing of communism" - donald trump
we're back to pre-1914! hooray!
>>2859913I will remind all of you again.
>>2860443it needs to happen so its potential becomes exhausted and its fundamental theses disproven.
>>2860446has never happened
>>2860442It's the libs who are trying to destroy Platner lol just look at Bluesky.
It's quite simple comrades. When class contradictions heighten, it will lead to class struggle and agitation. If the ruling class is capable of making concessions which pacify the subaltern classes and prevent revolution, then revolution was not a possibility in the first place. In such a situation any attempt to foment revolution will inevitably give way to reform. If they are not capable of such a thing, then reform was not a possibility. In that situation, any attempt at reform will inevitably give way to revolution.
>>2860447That's arguably what happened in Russia between February and October, it's just that the potential was extremely limited.
>>2860421>Marxist caucusesWhat are the relative strength of these caucuses as compared to the rest of the DSA? Is there any way to tell?
>>2860253There is this strange idea where acknowledging SA accusations is some sort of moral act that shows your innate goodness and empathy. But doing that is always a PR disaster that makes you look guilty. Smart move would be to ignore it and keep going. Right-wingers have figured this out, left leaning types have not.
>>2860450blud if you think all the people who have been spamming anti-Platner stuff here for months are real leftists I have a bridge to sell you
>>2860442people here think telling workers to support a bourgeois party is communism and call you sectarian if you disagree
>>2860451what exactly "potential becomes exhausted" between February and October? Russia because socialist because the Bolsheviks took power not because they elected reformists.
meanwhile the world's Social Democracy are no where near revolutionary despite decades of being in power
>>2860174The digital infustructure can only be maintained with globalism. We're more likely to see super states in the future and some places will just be ongoing warzones. Even North Korea relies on global trade. They just have to access markets through China. Some of that is plausible but trade is only going to accelerate.
>>2860456But that happened, hence the rise of the national socialist party - the only real socialist party (like the DSA)
God damn it platner
>>2860454dumbass, that wasn't what I was saying at all
>>2860455rip
>>2860457The Bolsheviks were able to take power because the reformists were unable to solve any of the problems facing the country. This is what I mean by potential being exhausted. I'm referring to a situation in which reform is no longer capable of dissipating class conflict.
>>2860463<Actually, the DSA are basically the BolsheviksStunning analysis, comrade
>>2860463More:
>Marxism alone has precisely and correctly defined the relation of reforms to revolution, although Marx was able to see this relation only from one aspect โ under the conditions preceding the first to any extent permanent and lasting victory of the proletariat, if only in one country. Under those conditions, the basis of the proper relation was that reforms are a by-product of the revolutionary class struggle of the proletariat. Throughout the capitalist world this relation is the foundation of the revolutionary tactics of the proletariat โ the ABC, which is being distorted and obscured by the corrupt leaders of the Second International and the half-pedantic and half-finicky knights of the Two-and-a-Half International.
>Before the victory of the proletariat, reforms are a by-product of the revolutionary class struggle. After the victory (while still remaining a โby-productโ on an international scale) they are, in addition, for the country in which victory has been achieved, a necessary and legitimate breathing space when, after the utmost exertion of effort, it becomes obvious that sufficient strength is lacking for the revolutionary accomplishment of some transition or another. Victory creates such a โreserve of strengthโ that it is possible to hold out even in a forced retreat, hold out both materially and morally. Holding out materially means preserving a sufficient superiority of forces to prevent the enemy from inflicting utter defeat. Holding out morally means not allowing oneself to become demoralised and disorganised, keeping a sober view of the situation, preserving vigour and firmness of spirit, even retreating a long way, but not too far, and in such a way as to stop the retreat in time and revert to the offensive.โ V.I. Lenin, โThe Importance of Gold Now and After the Complete Victory of Socialismโ (November 1921)
>>2860463You have to realize that online leftists have a fetish for being useless.
>>2860429It's the same accuser who had a small mention in the nyt article expanding on her story after feeling like the nyt article wasn't bein gtaken super seriously.
>>2860460The SPD shitting the bed in 1919 led directly to the creation of the KPD, and from there to the SED.
did leftypol get more retarded after the mamdani election or something.
I have been coming here on and off since 2017 and I've never seen such sustained pro democrat garbage. Like this isn't even pro DSA garbage, it's just pro liberal.
>>2860464Even if that was the case we have in reality much more evidence of social democracy not leading to revolution despite decades of being in power or in the case of Germany social democrats fighting the actual Communists.
You only have a single data point and even that is on shaky ground.
>>2860471People are literally calling for a proletarian dictatorship around here what the fuck are you talking about you consensus breaker? Shill.
>>2860472I'm not saying that social democracy leads to revolution. I'm saying that if social democracy is even a possibility then revolution is not, and that revolution only happens when social democracy is impossible.
This is an anti-DSA thread
If you don't like that, go back to reddit
>>2860476Seething Platner worshipper
>>2860463>>2860466Lenin correct as always. Does this man ever miss?
>>2860463>I plead all of you to read the books before crying and shitting all over the place.but that's hard and it's much easier to just make up shit you didn't say and attack you with it
>>2860465chef's kiss
>>2860471>2017Nobody cares
>>2860471This tends to happen, a lot of people project their fantasies on any liberal who gets a little popular or wins an election.
People did this with Bernie too and in 2020 with BLM and Biden
Why has the Lenin method proved ineffective in almost all countries? I don't think it is for lack of trying. You can shout and scream that voting has proven ineffective to make lasting change when the armed struggle has proven just as imeffective. I am not even arguing against your method either. Your position is rather unfalsifiable too.
>just wait for the revolutionary moment bro!
Ok, if it comes I will change my opinion. If your strategy is based on preparing for societal collapsr, then you guys have a lot of work to do and I don't see how the DSA is stopping you from doing it. As Engels and even Lenin himself said, it will be better for your preparations if socialists in government can take some of the heat off you. As even Iron Felix agrees, doing illegal things just for the sake of being illegal like carrying a gun without the permit which is easy to acquire. You can prepare militias legally. You might even be able to start getting experiences with explosives and other heavier weapons if you go about it legally if you are really preparing yourself for the day of the insurrection.
>>2860480Maybe if he was a Republican but heโs not, he is probably gonna drop out and rightfully so, Rosa-Killer rapists should not hold public office
>>2860474and I'm saying that given historical examples Social Democracy is the enemy of Communism and that it gives the proletariat a false sense of security, harming revolutionary potential
>>2860489surprisingly based post from tom
>>2860487>when the armed struggle has proven just as imeffectivebut this isn't true voting has never lead to Socialism, Leninism has
>>2860490very true. reformism doesn't work. only revolution works. that's why all workers should get in the trench and die for the vanguard party. i of course am the next lenin and will sit in the central committe office wearing a suit, and asking the cheka to torture people. so i won't have to do any of the gun fighting
Our official campaign number:
+1 (712)-206-1188
The campaign will be on hiatus until August 1st.By that time we will have a public meeting in the greenway near Charlottetown avenue.
>>2860449can the ruling class possibly give meaningful reform but deliberately choose not to do so?
>>2860493that's true. leninism works. put on the budenovka and get on the horse. it's time to storm the palace with your mosin nagant. don't worry about the drones, or face recognition tech or nukes, nothing has changed since russia had its red revolution that decayed into bourgeois revisionism.
BREAKING:Brain dead Mitch Mcconnel will finish out his term in office
>>2860487>I don't see how the DSA is stopping you from doing itthe historical precedents of social democrats being enemies of Communism i.e. Germany and the fact it gives a provides a false sense of security
>>2860490Like anything else it depends on the context. If you have a mature worker's movement that has gone as far as it can through reformist and legal means and needs to shift to a revolutionary strategy, then obviously reformists who thwart this are enemies. But I think that's a moot point currently since America has no such movement and will necessarily need the participation of reformists to construct one. It's similar to how liberals were allies against feudalism or the national bourgeoisie against imperialism. Eventual confrontation is inevitable and necessary, but it can also be premature to our detriment.
Mass agitation is a tactic that was first formulated in its complete form by Vladimir Ilyich Lenin at the beginning of the 20th century. It stems from the experience with European social democratic parties: spontaneous uprising is not enough, but passive waiting for the conditions to ripen (as the Mensheviks did) is at best inactive, and at worst a betrayal of the revolutionary mission.
Mass agitation rests on two pillars: the question and organization. Its distinctive feature is that the organization does not strive merely for quantitative growth, but for the qualitative transformation of participants. The goal is not to attract as many people as possible, but to turn existing ones (even if few) into exceptionally dedicated and capable revolutionaries.
Mass agitation does not accept public opinion as a given. Through active work it seeks to awaken class consciousness where it does not yet exist. Agitation does not mean mere awareness-raising in the liberal sense; its goal is to show everyday hardships as a symptom of the capitalist system and as a reason for revolutionary action. In doing so, agitators do not shy away from simplifications, emotional appeals, or even provocations โ everything is subordinated to one goal: that the worker stops blaming the bad boss or the foreigner and begins to recognize the systemic enemy.
This is done by a vanguard organization. A small, disciplined group of professional revolutionaries that directs, coordinates, and prolongs agitation. Its role is twofold: negatively, to prevent a retreat into compromise and reformism; positively, to provide the workers' movement with the theory, strategy, and continuity that spontaneity alone cannot give.
The power of MA lies not in controlling the masses, but in encouraging the masses to independent revolutionary action.
japan never had a bourgeois revolution btw. it just had a managed transition to capitalism and the feudal lords became porkies
>>2860496I think so, but then you're banking on our enemies being stupid to the point of suicide. It's definitely rare.
>>2860494>>2860497<I can't defend reformism anymore so I will shitpostcope
>>2860501The DSA, powered by ChatGPT
>>2860501mass agitation is when i go on leftypol and call people social fascist treatlers who suck blood
>>2860504reformism doesn't work. i agree. get on the horse. take up the mosin nagant. storm the winter palace. i'm sure that will work out.
>>2860506t. Blood sucking treatlerite
>>2860505how is that post DSA? are you illiterate?
Hey folks, it's raining pretty hard here, and I have to walk four miles to go home. I, if anybody could spot me any money for an Uber, it's like $12 to Uber home, that way I don't have to walk home in the rain, that would be a blessing. Everyone I know who can give me a ride is currently at work, and I don't get paid until Thursday, and I have, my rent completely ate away any money I have.
Cashapp my comrade who lets me use her cashapp:
$jodiewodie
I guess for a more general update, because I get paid less with my monthly rent, desperately trying to find a second job or a cheaper place to live. My next court case date is on the 9th, but the deposition isn't until the 31st, so it's just a procedural check-in with the court.
>>2860507At what point did the bolsheviks storm the Winter palace? After Plekhanov got exiled to Switzerland? Or?? What the fuck are you talking about?
>>2860508i'm a twister actually. posting is praxis.
>>2860509I'm wise to your social fascist ways
You're fooling nobody Platner
>>2860511are you going to fight and die for your beliefs or just post?
>>2860514that wasn't even my post retard, it was clearly explaining leninism.
>>2860500>If you have a mature worker's movement that has gone as far as it can through reformist and legal means and needs to shift to a revolutionary strategy, then obviously reformists who thwart this are enemiesAll reformists will thwart this because their whole goal is not socialism but to give people a slightly comfier life under capitalism, they have a vested interest in maintaining capitalism.
>It's similar to how liberals were allies against feudalism or the national bourgeoisie against imperialismits not similar at all because the liberals/national bourgeoisie did not have the same interest in maintaining feudalism/imperialism the way social democrats do with capitalism
>>2860515You don't think the bolsheviks shitposted in some sense?
nobody ITT will ever actually pick up a gun and do any of the things they say are needed
>>2860507now you're just mad lmao
>>2860519Did Lenin ever pick up a gun?
>>2860516Go and actually read Lenin you dunce, not some distillation of a text mined LLM's version of his position
>>2860519cool but that still doesn't make reformism viable
>>2860522how do you know it's LLM, what did it say that was wrong? provide sources
>>2860524No ITT is saying reformism is viable
>>2860524i never said it was. you are basically no better than a reformist until you stop yapping and pick up a gun
>>2860526people supporting the DSA are
>>2860527sorry but the DSA is still just welfare capitalist
>>2860528Provide evidence or kill yourself
>>2860528i support you picking up a gun and doing civil war
>>2860471People believe they are revolutionary here but if we had a minimum of the New Deal, most of the people here would be fine with the system
>>2860531the dick suckers of america are your brothers because all they do is post, just like you
>>2860536Quote verbatim or kill yourself you lying satanic piece of shit
>>2860534there's no going back to new deal. new deal corporate taxes were like 90%, the most ambitious shit bernie bros want is like pre-reagan rates of 25%
>>2860517>its not similar at all because the liberals/national bourgeoisie did not have the same interest in maintaining feudalism/imperialism the way social democrats do with capitalismSocial democrats want to maintain capitalism, but they also want to construct a strong worker's movement within it. They arent going to prevent the creation of the movement as such since its the basis of their power, instead they want to prevent it from becoming revolutionary. Historically they've played a major role in building organized labour and giving it political expression. It's once this phase of movement construction is over that they become real enemies.
i haven't read any news of blown up weapons factories, shot treatlerite suburbanites, raided petty bourgeois gun stores, destroyed substations, poisoned wells, burst dams, downed helicopters, or prison breaks… where are the american bolsheviks?!?!?!?!?!
>>2860535>>2860533Firstly, it is not true that fascism is only the fighting organisation of the bourgeoisie. Fascism is not only a military-technical category. Fascism is the bourgeoisieโs fighting organisation that relies on the active support of Social-Democracy.
Social-Democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism >one group of people think reform is viable
>another group of people think reform is nonviable but will use it as part of a "combination of legal and illegal tactics"
<it is impossible for these two groups of people to cooperate
explain
>>2860525>How do you know it was an LLMI'm not a retard unlike you
>>2860542Mfs will tell you to combine legal and illegal tactics and then get mad when you use legal tactics.
>>2860541yes and you will sit there while the social democrats do social fascism and just cry about it. you won't do any real communism. you will never put on the budenovka and get in the trench
>>2860271>all movements begin with intellectuals. communism started with proletarians acting in self-interest (thats the "real movement" M&E talk about in German Ideology), you are an idiot
>>2860545so you see text and assume robot? sounds pretty tarded
>>2860548I promise you that those workers weren't imagining the end of class society, but had economistic aims.
>>2860539>but they also want to construct a strong worker's movement within it.they might "want" to but in reality they do not. That has been the trend.
>Historically they've played a major role in building organized labour and giving it political expressionwhere and how many examples do you actually have? I'm pretty sure we can find significantly more instances of the opposite taking place as well.
>>2860547cope harder the DSA will still never be viable
if i win one more treatler vs. TWister debate on leftychud dot larp the real revolution will start.
>>2860553i agree retard. adding to that, you will never put on the budenovka and get in the trench, so you are basically DSA
>>2860549Yes being able to think critically must appear as magic to you
>>2860552>where and how many examples do you actually have?Literally every labour movement in the world lmao. Just off the top of my head, FDR and the New Deal Dems played a major role in organized labour getting as strong as it did in America. Do you think that this was constructed exclusively by communists? The same for Labour in Britain and the SPD in Germany. For a more modern examples there's MAS in Bolivia and the PSUV in Venezuela.
>>2860557and again this is just you getting mad that the DSA is a rad lib org and nothing more
>>2860481>Lenin correct as always. Does this man ever miss?yes always. if only he was immortal, the USSR would have lasted forever. maybe that was his real fault.
>>2860559you can't even say why it's wrong
>>2860562>DSA is a rad lib orgyes and until you pick up a gun and put on the budenovka you are just alt-DSA
>>2860564Just go and ask your LLM
>>2860560um its LLM slop. i just know because i have magic powers. no i wont click the link
>>2860568>i have less reasoning skills than an LLMbleak
>>2860567
nice 1 dude
>>2860570Did the LLM tell you to post this
>>2860561then you have a very low bar for what constitutes a "strong labor movement" to the point of irrelevancy. Has FDR's New Deal Dems done ANYTHING to bring about socialism?
In Labour's 126 years of existing they haven't had any success and building socialism and the SPD betrayed the Communists and killed workers went into WW1.
Your idea of a "strong labor movement" is incompetence
>>2860566let it out kid DSA is still rad lib
>>2860575>DSA is still rad libcorrect and so are you
>>2860574My idea of a strong labour movement is one that's capable of weilding meaningful political power, resisting the efforts of capital to squeeze workers harder, and advance significant concessions. Just because a movement isn't revolutionary doesn't mean its weak.
>>2860576>>2860575ladies, you're both jewish
>>2860577keep chimping out jewish nigger
>>2860567
yes because they're stinky and retarded and will never fight for themselves. they are welcome to prove me wrong
>>2860555That's not really a fair read of what I'm saying. I'm saying that the DSA is a revolutionary organization and we can pull them left if we try hard enough.
Finally he admits it. Screenshotted.^
>>2860577>>2860561I suggest you not waste your time replying, comrade.
>>2860546because you want more treats and refuse to use illegal tacatics along side them. what part of this don't you understand
>>2860586you are both social fascists and not comrades of anyone but satan
>>2860581Haven't you got anything better to do? At any rate I don't think DSA is a revolutionary organization as such. Rather they're offering a space for revolutionary organization that at least has a mass audience. Maybe the organization as a whole can be transformed, maybe it will be necessary to split it. In either case they're offering more than all the micro-sects.
>>2860584Not me.
>>2860577and is your idea of "resisting the efforts of capital to squeeze workers harder" socialism or just social programs?
Because it sounds like you're just arguing for welfare capitalism and not Socialism. As Marxists we're interested in the latter
>>2860574>bring about socialismwhy would i want to do that? i am a social fascist. I just want to enslave the world so my herrenvolk can get more xbox
>DSA is a revolutionary organization
This is the person who will quote Lenin to you
>>2860590reformists orgs doesn't "transform" they have a vested interest in maintain capitalism because their whole goal is a slightly comfier life under capitalism
>>2860589
jewish nigger faggot
>>2860594everyone screenshot it and pull it out any time he opens up his filthy mouth
>>2860596agreed. now put on the budenovka and die for communism in the trench. i'll let your wife be my secretary in the central committee
>>2860499It's such fuckimg bull. Everytime socialism becomes active in the political sphere, the ultras shit and piss themself because they act like all the DSAs supporters are rightfully their supporters. They act like these supporters just spontaneously appeared and they would be their supporters if not for the DSA stealing them. The fact is the DSA is out there organizing and agitating and creating their own supporters and the ultras are doing nothing to build support and that is the reason the DSA has more supporters. Go out and do your own organizing and ahotating and building your own support base instead of simply demanding other groups supporters are rightfully yours.
>>2860599finally, an honest amerikkkan
>>2860593I'm not a reformist, I don't think a bourgeois state can be reformed into a proletarian one, nor capitalism into socialism. However I do subscribe to the Marxist and Leninist views that electoralism is a valuable tool that we shouldn't ignore. Also, that reformist socialists can be allies in the early phases of a building a workers movement, before they inevitably become our enemies.
Bit of an awkward time to jump in here but I am a Social Democrat(not a Marxist or Communist) from a third world country. I think the DSA is something I would want for my country rather then a revolution because a Marxist revolution would make us a pariah on the world stage and likely lead to worse conditions before the CIA coups it
>>2860603>reasoning with trollsJust don't. lol
>>2860605Meh. The CIA coups social democracy too. Like Allende in Chile. Or even coups bourgeois liberals who aren't comrpadors.
>>2860601>everytime socialism becomes active in the political sphereyou're just calling it socialist because you're excited about it. It isn't socialist at all its welfare capitalist.
>>2860605That reminds me, these same characters were bitching and moaning when Lula got back into office and locked up Bolsonaro because apparently that is also detrimental for the revolution. When bad things happen = good. When good things happen = bad.
>>2860603Lenin supported the elections of Communists not welfare capitalists
>>2860612the election of Lula will contribute nothing to socialism in Brazil
>>2860613>Lenin supported the elections of Communistsnobody is pure enough to be one of those. we are apophatic theologicans. we can only say what communism is not, never what it is.
>>2860588when can we just ban these IPs? mods?
>>2860601yes. my chapter near me has now a couple hundred members. idk how it's grown or what their practices are regarding who is a member but it's certain that dsa is growing. Imo people out themselves as armchairs by shitting on an org at a nat'l level, instead of assessing how much hype and enthusiasm they inspire in members…now that's not even close to the sufficient, but I think it's necessary in order to go from just waving flags to actually putting anything on the line.
I wonder of dsa has a principled position on anarchism or how they interact w groups like PSL, FRSO
>>2860605Social democrats get coupled to dont kid your self
>>2860593finally, an honest kafka trap
>>2860605sorry look up the 80s latam…pretty sure they uses rightwing deathsquads just for basic worker shit or nationalization of industry
>>2860609this
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>>2860623>>2860621true but I don't think that was for them being social democracies as much as they were closer with the USSR.
>>2860612Once Lulu dies from old age the fascists will get their guys in. They will not make the same mistakes Bolsonaro made.
>>2860625USSR didn't matter in the western hemisphere after they cucked out with the Cuban missile crisis. Real problem for you is why would they let you have a social democracy when banana republics are more profitable and give them tighter control?
>>2860510Also if you haven't seen this I created a visualization of the 577 people who George Washington held in chattel slavery at Mt Vernon
https://erikhoudini.com/577 Unique IPs: 102