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>>2893548Evidence of the influence and origin of neo-Nazi groups in Ukraine
https://archive.ph/44B9Qhttps://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323637https://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323658https://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323663https://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323688https://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323729https://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323733https://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323731https://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323735https://archive.ph/x1sRT#1323740https://azovlobby.substack.com/https://banderalobby.substack.com/—————————————————–
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Live maps and updates
DeepStateMap:
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https://southfront.press/category/all-articles/world/europe/ukraine/Watch Together
📺 News/events:
https://tv.leftypol.org/r/HappeningsviaKlash📺 Hangout/chill:
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>Video Essays / Historical Background📺 • Ukraine: The Avoidable War - Boy Boy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL4eNy4FCs8📺 • Ukraine's Nazi Problem - The Marxist Project
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yZvWAwU5W4📺 • America, Russia, and Ukraine's Far Right - Gravel Institute
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0pyVJG7_6Q📺 • The Nature of Putin's Russia and Its Causes (3-Part Series) - 1Dime
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8d6Vzi7zYghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zODWTfMwFGwhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zuygh9Mzuo
<Current Happenings 📺 • The Grayzone:
https://www.youtube.com/@thegrayzone7996📺 • DDGeopolitics:
https://www.youtube.com/@DDGeopolitics📺 • Defense Politics Asia:
https://www.youtube.com/@DefensePoliticsAsia📺 • The Duran:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdeMVChrumySxV9N1w0Au-w📺 • The News Atlas:
https://www.youtube.com/c/thenewatlas📺 • Military Summary:
https://www.youtube.com/@militarysummary—————————————————–
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Thread guidelines:
• Please remember to add a spoiler to NSFW and extreme content such as graphic violence and gore.
• Try your best to not derail discussion too much from the main events and relevant places where the war is taken place, as well as other happenings, groups and public figures related to it.
• Meta discussion of the historical, philosophical and ideological background of the war is fine as long as its done in good faith and comradely.
• In the event the meta discussion overstays its welcome, participating users will be referred to take the conversation to the INTERNATIONALISM general thread.
• Quality shitposting and original content is encouraged! Spamming glowie memes is low effort.
• this is /ISG/ for people who treats geopolitics like shitty map games
• behead NATO, crush NATO, etc.
• boasting about getting laid in a warzone is fucking weird, okay?
Jesus Christ, Russia at will destroyed 90% of warehouses in Ukraine
>Despite the fact that the enemy destroyed about 90% of the warehouses of retail chains, Ukrainians will not be left without food.
>This was stated by the Minister of Agrarian Policy of Ukraine Taras Vysotsky during a conversation with journalists, Ukrinform reports.
>“Today, roughly 90% of food logistics by retail chains has been destroyed, but at the same time, this does not mean that Ukrainians will be left without food. There will be shift logistics, as they say, with wheels, other options for operational supply. That is, there will be no threat of hunger and a systemic physical shortage of food, “ Vysotsky assured.
How is this even possible
BREAKING NEWS: Russian MOD declares that they are preparing for strikes on Ukrainian energy grid now
>>2903073The 90% claim is probably just givas bait tbh.
Speaking of givas, Zelensky’s latest plan ist eintausend drohnen pro tag! but of course he calls on Europe to givas 700 drones a day to achieve this on top of Ukraine’s current 300-a-day ability.
>>2903115Jason Unruhe is still alive and active? Woah
>>2903136I will say, the ratio of these memes is shockingly biased towards Ukraine. I know they need to present themselves as finding this conflict funny a lot more than Russia does, but still, why so serious?
>>2903153That's a meme about Russian retaliatory strikes, though
>>2903158I know but contrast this to that oil tank popping its lid in Moscow, NAFOids made like 9001 edits of that.
>>2903165They're imaginative, but the lid popping off is probably intentional. Considering how high it went, the pressure if the lid didn't give would have made an explosion comparable to what we see in Kiev daily.
>>2903167it got hit by a veering aaw
and those obviously pack a punch
>>2903115>One of the ur-TWist micro-ecelebs is a bothsider>>2901613Meant to use this one
>>2901679>but given NATO expansion had progressed to NATO armed Neo-Nazis launching missiles at Russian speakers right on the Russian border But Champ there was increasingly less of this prior to 2022 to the point 2021 only saw 16 (civilian) fatalities total
https://cdn.osce.org/sites/default/files/f/documents/2/a/511327.pdf>>2903073>BREAKING NEWS: Russian MOD declares that they are preparing for strikes on Ukrainian energy grid nowI'm curious if once Flamingos start raining down on the Russian grid, the Russian MOD will claim strikes on the Ukrainian grid are retaliations.
Because you know, they've been hitting "dual use" warehouses in Ukraine for years now.
>>2903197>only saw 16 (civilian) fatalities totalYeah see the "only" here is doing a lot of work.
>>2903201As opposed to 16 fatalities in a single night in Kyiv a few days ago.
Missed this one
>>2903052Thank god NATO and its allies were caught up in Ukraine. Otherwise Syria, Venezuela, Nagorno-Karabakh and others would have fallen by now. Gaza would have been destroyed, and Russia would be bombed weekly by now.
>>2903212What's the expression? FAFO?
>Meant to use this one
Lmao yeah okay, I don't care how many personas you have because I rekt'd them all
Neither Russia or Ukraine exist, it’s all Ai Generated, there’s not a single human being that lives and works out there
>>2903219Narc response but okay
>boasting about getting laid in a warzone is fucking weird, okay?
And just noticed this lmfao. #Obsessed
>>2903222Because I told on you? You told on yourself by being slightly more of a retard than usual.
>>2903224If you'd paid this much attention prior to today, you'd not have outed yourself as a samefag. I hope you're more careful with the boys of Lvov.
>>2903226I'm referring to the "rekt y'all" smugposting. Cemented by complaining about someone getting laid in the OP.
>>2903230And then this.
>samefagOkay I'll go along. Where?
>I hope you're more careful Pathetic
But lmao man, making my day
>Erm Russian-speaker civilian deaths at the hands of NATO-armed Neo-Nazis were on a downward trend ackshually, NATO was "only" responsible for the deaths of 16 Russian speakers in former Soviet territory in 2021 according to Western-based watchdog, that's lesser than prior years!
<Whatabout the Ukrainian civilians dying when Russian targets the NATO-supplied ammo depots Kiev placed next to their homes?
>>2903238I mean the OP says it all
>boasting about getting laid in a warzone is fucking weird, okay?No one twisted your arm into admitting you're a sex tourist, you presented that as a point anyone should care about. Now you're complaining that fact gets too much attention? That's pathetic.
>>2903240The report states around half were landmine related casualties during prior years. And it's not clear if all of them were living in DPR/LPR territory.
But I don't think you understood what I was getting at: there was a downward trend in terms of casualties. Now there isn't and entire cities have been destroyed. Including cities full of Russian speakers and Russia sympathizers.
Was it worth it? Is there socialism yet in the Donbas? Has the nazi regime been toppled? Did they prevent the "neonazis" from invading and bombing Russia? Or as another anon alluded to, was NATO prevented from targeting other countries? How are Gaza, Venezuela, Syria and Nagorno-Karabakh doing?
>>2903244No you're not getting the point, you claimed Russia's concerns about NATO expansion was down to boomers and embarrassment about clay, now you're moving the goalpoasts by which the NATO-backed-Neo-Nazi-Related deaths of Russian speakers on former Soviet territory was ackshually on a downward trend and
probably would have stopped eventually.
>>2903241Honest question but have you NEVER hooked up, including on a holiday or after a party? Why do you think something this mundane is a boast?
And btw originally the only reason that was ever brought up originally is because I was questioned as to how I knew what local Ukrainians were thinking and how I was running into people supposedly willing to be honest about their experiences. Which wasn't a boast.
>>2903245>No you're not getting the point, you claimed Russia's concerns about NATO expansion was down to boomers and embarrassment about clay,That's hasn't changed. I'm talking about the actual consequences of the conflict. And why people who "supp000rt" this here - aka (you) not the Kremlin - think it was worth it considering the war could've gone on for centuries at the 2021 pace, and it still wouldn't have led to the amount of yearly devastation we're seeing now.
>>2903246I don't go to active warzones looking for nightclubs and strip clubs that "aren't too expensive" to get laid from, I believed you once claimed.
I'm willing to wager that's true for most people, including those who are slamming supermodels every day.
>I'm talking about the actual consequences of the conflict.That is moving the goalposts from "NATO expansion being a risk to Russians" being pure fantasy born of a hurt ego, to "okay it was a threat, but responding to it meant NATO was always going to kill more". It's pretty obvious that with this mindset that the violence wasn't on a downward trend.
And if the argument here is "we should always do total war against the neonazis" then why don't they blow up a nazi funeral full of nazis (was it that spurdo poster who brought up "who attends a funeral of a nazi"?) if they don't care about civilian casualties (aka "a couple of civies" next to a kIev ammo dump)?
>>2903256>(was it that spurdo poster who brought up "who attends a funeral of a nazi"?) Lmao you know it was, because it was you in your concern trolling persona
>>2903255>That is moving the goalposts from "NATO expansion being a risk to Russians" being pure fantasy born of a hurt egoIt was. Why would NATO expansion be a risk to Russia if the latter has access to nuclear weapons? Do you think the DPRK is also at risk and should launch an immediate SMO even though they have nukes? Are nukes fake? Was Ukraine going to push NATO over the threshold were Russia would be defeated in a future war, even though the Baltics and much of eastern Europe joined NATO ages ago?
>It's pretty obvious that with this mindset that the violence wasn't on a downward trend.It's literally in the OSCE reports.
It was probably also you giving me that price on spuds in Tesco shit the other day as well
>>2903259>Why would NATO expansion be a risk to Russia Because it eventually expands into a majority-Russian speaking country with a population that was neutral-to-opposed to NATO membership, which involved a coup and installing Neo-Nazis who were tasked with getting rid of anything in Ukrainian society that would keep it majority Russian speaking and sceptical on NATO membership.
That was always the destination since they started discussing NATO expansion a mere six years after the end of the Cold War.
>>2903257Mods can check IP you know, I used to post under a different (non-spurdo) flag BEFORE I started papiez posting and namefagging ITT.
>>2903261And any of this threatens Russia how?
>Because it eventually expands into a majority-Russian speaking country with a population that was neutral-to-opposed to NATO membership,Well that isn't the case anymore now thanks to the SMO
>>2903264Mods don't care if you're samefagging, it's a pathetic misdemeanour at best.
>And any of this threatens Russia how? This is now just pleading insanity.
>I used to post under a different (non-spurdo) flag BEFORE I started papiez posting and namefagging ITT.
Go on, what was it? that "BEFORE" suggests this matters at all and that doesn't really follow if you're trying to claim you're not a samefagger.
>>2903265None of what you wrote explains how this is an existential threat to Russian sovereignty.
>Nuclear weapons>Self-sufficient in food, minerals and energy>One of the lowest population densities in the worldGo ahead and explain how Ukraine joining NATO would threaten any of this.
>>2903266One of the anarcho flags. Then I stopped posting and visiting the thread (and the board in general), and when I came back late last year I posted under the Papiez flag.
>>2903268>Critique the Kremlin and the SMO <This means defending Ukraine what goes on in that videoReminds me of Zionists claiming criticism of Israel or the leveling of Gaza means you support Hamas and everything they've done these past 20 years.
>>2903275>Critique the Kremlin and the SMO What are you critisizing, exactly?
>>2903273>One of the anarcho flagsWell that figures.
>Go ahead and explain how Ukraine joining NATO would threaten any of this. The part where the Neo-Nazis fail to achieve their goals and it sparks a civil war, which gets worse until it results in NATO boasting about firing long range drones into Russian territory that kills civilians and Russia has to deal with that in a way that doesn't end the world.
Like you can be a cheeky cunt and be like
>erm well if it's such a big deal why am I not dead in a nuclear war hmmm!?but I'd direct you to that episode of SpongeBob with the hooks, because children are expected to understand that getting away with something dangerous doesn't now mean its safe.
>>2903276The idea all of this was necessary to preserve Russian sovereignty and protect the lives of "Russian speakers in the Donbas" many of who are now dead?
As Spurdo anon (official) I can confirm I am not Grillpilled/Thrillpilled. I would rather die than be born a Lithuanian. I do appreciate that he noticed the obviously illogical refusal to target Nazi funerals though, so thanks for the shout-out.
>>2903278>The part where the Neo-Nazis fail to achieve their goals and it sparks a civil war, which gets worse until it results in NATO boasting about firing long range drones into Russian territory that kills civilians and Russia has to deal with that in a way that doesn't end the world.Except none of that happened. Like why the hell would they just start bombing Russia for no reason? Why would the rest of NATO go along with this AFTER Ukraine joins NATO in this hypothetical future?
The current strikes only started after the RAF spend years bombing Ukraine.
It's like hearing zionists talk about Iran.
>We had to do this, even though they could have done it for decades, or they would have done it first! >>2903284Are you curious why the Russian capitalist oligarchs actually invaded Ukraine or are just arguing? I would say the economic crisis caused by the global covid lockdowns is the biggest cause of the SMO. The rare earth metals and agricultural resources in Ukraine are also a factor economically speaking. We could use some better resources on this. Its hard to find any good information.
Speaking of which, I used to be sympathetic at least to the idea the SMO would prevent NATO from ratfucking other countries, and you know the whole killing nazis bit. But alas, it's instead Russia getting bogged down whilst technofashoid zionists rape the global south. And Russia itself is becoming increasingly reactionary, xenophobic and anti-communist (see latest actions against KPRF candidates).
The Iran war and visiting Ukraine in person got me off the bandwagon for good.
>>2903284>Except none of that happened.Again, the insanity plea.
NATO installed Neo-Nazis to make Ukraine pliable for NATO membership, it resulted in a civil war, through which Russian speakers got attacked by a NATO armed military, so Russia got involved and NATO embraced the opportunity to escalate and your sole defence is that we're not all dead or living in a nuclear wasteland so it can't have been a big deal.
As for
>Russia just shoulda let it happen broit wasn't happening anyway, if it were another Poland or Czech Republic then coups to install Neo-Nazis wouldn't have happened anyway.
>>2903280Are you denying the investigations into Ukrainian torture chambers for separatists? Also, do you think that Russian-speaking population of Ukraine doesn't deserve democracy?
>>2903281Hello spurdo
>>2903286>Speaking of which, I used to be sympathetic at least to the idea the SMO would prevent NATO from ratfucking other countries, and you know the whole killing nazis bit. But alas, it's instead Russia getting bogged down whilst technofashoid zionists rape the global southHello spurdo
You are an atrocious liar btw, you spent all this time denying Nazis exist in Ukraine just to come out with
>and you know the whole killing nazis bit
I suppose if you can't beat them, join them and party in their nightclubs right?
>>2903286You’re a Pribalt, your fake nation is literally built on genocidal Russophobia and anti-communism, and yet you think you have the moral authority to lecture the Russian people because they’re allegedly anti-communist? The country where the communist party is the second most powerful party and in a coalition with the natural party of governance? Oh nooooo but they disbarred a few glowies boohoo, guess Russians deserve their genocide now!
>>2903286Reminder: Katyn was committed by Nazis, not Soviets. Majority of Poles "lost" by Anders settled in USSR after seeing gulags from the inside; Beria's report goes over them name by name and finds them living in Russia as civilians, because gulags allowed free come and go and "prisoners" living in nearby settlements
>>2903292KPRF is in opposition not in coalition. United Russia is in coalition with the Liberal Democrats not the Communists.
>>2903285I think the psychological angle makes more sense. Yes the Donbas is valuable, but there is isn't anything (energy, fertile soils, key minerals) there that the rest of Russia doesn't have more of, and I don't think there were any official plans to annex the whole country. I think they genuinely believed (huffing their own supply) they'd be welcomed. And I do think the comment about Ukraine acquiring nuclear weapons must've added some urgency to the decision. But not in the sense that Ukraine would join NATO and then nuke Russia.
More along the lines of; the best time to intervene was "yesterday" and it wasn't going to get any easier.
>>2903288As the OSCE reports show the war was winding down in 2021. All of this rests on the idea that Ukraine would have joined NATO and then just started attacking Russia (not the Donbas) and then we would have nuclear war.
>>2903297>As the OSCE reports show the war was winding down in 2021.It doesn't matter if Ted Bundy killed fewer people in the year he was caught, it doesn't change what has already been done.
>>2903292I'm not a balt
>moral authority to lecturespooky
>The country where the communist party is the second most powerful partyHow many ministries do they control?
>natural party of governancespooky
>Oh nooooo but they disbarred a few glowies boohoo, guess Russians deserve their genocide now!Hysterical
>>2903291>visiting Ukraine in person got me off the bandwagon for good. >Ukraine killed a load of civilians but it was winding down and Russia should have let them become NATO members anyway and mobilise millions as NATO's forward army against Russia
I suppose that is the kind of retardation that leads to lying about living in Lvov getting down deep in some Banderite Bussy only to find a life partner you're driving around Ukraine checking out the tourist spots with
>>2903300>Visiting Ukraine in person got me off the bandwagon for good.I reiterate
>I suppose if you can't beat them, join them and party in their nightclubs right? >>2903304Yeah that is the conundrum when you're faced by an expanding military power that has the expressed purpose of aggression against yourself
>>2903296For the purposes of the SMO they are in a coalition, not that you have any understanding of Russia’s government beyond “muh oligarchs” and other Russophobic slurs
>>2903300Why do Russians deserve extermination?
>>2903307>You're a RUSSOPHOBEat this point the zigger propagandists are so terrible at their jobs that they might as well be working for the cia for all the good they accomplish for the west.
But remember gang, this is the picture of liberalism
>Help a proxy bomb civilians who speak your language and even identify as your nationality
>Slap the proxy
<Well clearly this is all your fault, I must give them everything they need to hit your civilians in your territory we do respect
>>2903304Unlike Israel, Russia has a right to defend itself
>>2903312Is there really any difference between these countries?
>>2903302I wanted to check it out in person. Instead I spotted one Bandera statue, one azovite, some OUN graffiti, a few pieces of merch. And a lot of people who had gotten used to the war.
I didn't find the "neonazi pressgang dystopia".
>>2903305>>2903301There was no threat against Moscow except psychological.
>retard, liar, sexpat, nonceImagine being this
d i s c o m b u l a t e d about something so mundane
SÉXO >>2903312Russia supplies 60% of Israel's oil and Russians themselves comprise at least 15% of the population of Israel, thobeit. For some reason leftcoms get mad at China trading with Israel but never bring up who's actually living in Israel. If 15% of Israel were Chinese everyone would be screaming about Chinese imperialism but Russia gets to supply most of Israel's energy as well as large amounts of actual settlers and soldiers and gets a pass? Make it make sense.
>>2903312Can you get to the point already where you call Ukrainians a fake nationality invented by Anglos, G*rms, Psheks and Hebrews and Russia is a civilizational state with a proletarian racial SVOL involved in a Manichaean struggle against the bourgeois-degenerate west?
>>2903317>I wanted to check it out in person.I reiterate
>I suppose if you can't beat them, join them and party in their nightclubs right?What you're saying doesn't follow at all, and you should probably get used to this because this is the point I want to get an answer for now. Not standard lib takes that although the border between East and West used to be in Berlin but now on the Russian border, it's definitely Russia's fault NATO drones and missiles are being launched into Russia.
>>2903318>Russia supplies 60% of Israel's oil That's the most retarded shit I've ever heard anyone say. Why would it waste money shipping oil via sea when it's surrounded by the most oil rich countries ever that have zero qualms about doing business with them and that can transport via pipeline. How am I supposed to take anything else you say seriously when you pull that kind of number out of your ass, LMAO.
Where did spurdo go btw? Did he really just drop in to say he's not thrillpill and then fuck off?
>>2903322My bad I rembered wrong: Russia supplied 50% of Israel's refined fuel.
https://oilchange.org/news/countries-fueling-gaza-genocide/Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan supplied most of the crude oil (70%).
>>2903285>Are you curious why the Russian capitalist oligarchs actually invaded Ukraine or are just arguing? I would say the economic crisis caused by the global covid lockdowns is the biggest cause of the SMOThat's retarded
>>2903328>Oil Change International>714 G St. SE, #202>Washington, DC 20003>United StatesA place famously against the Gazan genocide and oil in general.
>>2903331>>2903328Holhol site simply copypasted news from a reputable non-holhol source. Read it and cry.
>>2903334I'm not reading anything else your dumbass decides to incorrectly repeat.
>>2903319You said it, not us. But as we’ve already established you’re from a fake nation yourself, I suppose it’s only natural you want to defend your genocidal brethren
>https://oilchange.org/values/>Our Commitment to Racial Justice and Equity at Oil Change International >Washington, DC 20003Holy NGO dogwhistle batman!
>>2903332I liked how you totally skipped over comments from Palestinians accepting the report. And you accuse others of bad faith arguing lmao.
>We also strive to repair specific and ongoing harms caused by colonialism and racism within environmental and climate movement spaces, including in our own organization.
>>Washington, DC 20003
>>2903341I used the search box to search "Saudi Arabia", the top result when sorted (by default) to "relevance" was
>Russian Oil Production Overtakes Saudi Arabia>August 23, 2006That's the most relevant article they have for that search term?
>>2903331https://oilchange.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Behind-the-Barrel-3.pdfBut is the data fake? The report includes more info on where there data came from including
https://docs.datadesk.eco/public/976ce7dcf00743dc/>>2903337>fake nationBesides no being a balt, are there non fake nations?
>>2903342The US is famous for having no organizations opposed to racism, imperialism or colonialism. White protestant anglo KKKrackers all the way down.
>>2903320> I want to get an answer for now. This situations didn't exist before the "full scale invasion" in 2022.
Besides if this is NATO as you say, and this war started to stop NATO from bombing Russia which would trigger a nuclear war. Why hasn't NATO been nuked yet?
>>2903347>The US is famous for having no organizations opposed to racism, imperialism or colonialism. White protestant anglo KKKrackers all the way down.Not quite, they're famous for having organisations that pretend to uphold those values, while the US continues to fund genocides repeatedly.
>This situations didn't exist before the "full scale invasion" in 2022.There's no point deflecting, I'm going to keep pushing you to answer how you get from
>I used to be sympathetic at least to the idea the SMO would prevent NATO from ratfucking other countries, and you know the whole killing nazis bit.to
>I wanted to check it out in person.because that doesn't follow.
>>2903346The Saudis don't sell oil to Israel you fucking retard there's a long standing ban. That's why Israel wanted the Abraham Accords to expand to pave the way towards trade normalization with Saudi Arabia but it fell apart after Oct 7. Hamas explicitly stated it was one of the reasons for the attack, in order to stop Israel from successfully normalizing trade relations with more Arab states. It's why Israel is sourcing so much oil and energy products from Russia and its allies.
>>2903347>Caspial Pipeline Consortium<this means it's 60% RussianYeah, nah.
>>2903356Going to bat for Saudi Arabia are you now?
You are the retard here, because the organisation isn't solely about Gaza but just the ills of fossil fuels in general and yet somehow the most relevant item for "Saudi Arabia" is an article from 2006 claiming Russian oil production surpassed Saudi Arabia, i.e Russia is a worse fossil fuel offender than Saudi Arabia.
End the war alr brug
Like if you're against Oil and you're for Social Justice, I'd imagine "Saudi Arabia" would have a more relevant article than
>The populist Russian newspaper, Komsomolskaya Pravda, ran the headline yesterday: “Russia takes first place in oil output rankings”. The story was based on OPEC figures showing that Russia is now extracting more oil than Saudi Arabia.
>>2903354He’s a Pribalt, so it’s Russophobic solidarity. You have to understand that for these “people” there is no higher calling than slaughtering the untermensch and making a spectacle out of it. Same with American Soldaten, they’re literally trying to kill themselves because they haven’t tasted Iranian blood
>>2903367He's British. I have experience with the type.
Well okay, shit why not check the second most relevant article? Keep it fair!
>Saudi Arabia’s “Inconvenient Truth”
Okay promising
>New documents released by Wikileaks reveal that for over three years the Americans have been worried that Saudi Arabia may have overstated its reserves by 40 per cent or some 300bn barrels.
oh so that's the Saudi scandal, ackshually they might not have as much oil as they claim after all!
>>2903354What is there not to understand? Much of Gaza has been destroyed. Venezuela was couped. Assad fled. Nagorno-Karabakh was reconquista'd by Zionist allies. Wars in places like the Sahel and Sudan are still going on. South America has lost many sucdem leaders. Iran got bombed, Lebanon is partially occupied.
And during this great Anti-Ukronazi Crusade people like
Dmytro Yarosh still feel comfortable being out in public and attending a funeral with other nazis.
Ergo the things the SMO was supposed to prevent (according to the Kremlin or online z-gang TWists multipolaristas) are still happening.
>because that doesn't follow.Not an adventurous mindset then. Do you also struggle to understand explorers, anthropologists or modern day journalists?
>>2903367>Some groups are just like ethnically anti-Russian okay? >>2903373>Foreign military bases are imperialism nowThis is why China is imperialist btw, but not Israel
Maybe the third? The last one was dated 2011 afterall, perhaps this 2019 article is more biting
>Saudi Arabia’s $2 Trillion Climate Wreckage Sale
Climate mentioned, gotta be scathing this time right?
>Later this week, the board of the state-owned oil company of Saudi Arabia, known as Saudi Aramco, is expected to give its final approval to proceed with its long awaited part privatization, otherwise known as an “Initial Public Offering” or IPO.
Err, that's not what I expected from that headline
>Excitement is rising in the Kingdom, with everyone being encouraged to invest in the kingdom’s most important asset, argues Bloomberg. “Many Saudis see the IPO as a demonstration of loyalty”.
So they're not bummed about this..
>On the one hand, one could argue that there is a positive to the sale, in that some see the sale as an attempt by Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman to kickstart the diversification of the OPEC nation’s economy away from oil.
Oh well hooray for Saudi Arabia I guess.
>Often when we talk about our climate crisis and climate emergency, we write about privately owned oil companies, such as Exxon, Shell and BP. We often forget about the state owned ones, and the biggest state oil company of them all, Saudi Aramco.
Yeah that's even worse right, when the oil money isn't going to private investors at the very least
>Those who invest in Saudi Aramco will be investing in oil production, just at a time when fossil fuel disinvestment increases apace. And rightly so, as CNN points out, one of the risks to the sale is “the potential for reduced oil consumption due to concerns about climate change.”
Yeah stupid fucks amirite?
Maybe the fourth article will deliver the harsh condemnation Saudi Arabia deserves for 9/11 its oil profiteering and horrific human rights record, dated May 25, 2006
>Saudi Arabia Promises to help Reduce CO2 Emissions in Oil Industry
Oh fuck off.
>>2903375>What is there not to understand? Much of Gaza has been destroyed. Venezuela was couped. Assad fled. Nagorno-Karabakh was reconquista'd by Zionist alliesOkay so what about this drove you to seek out bussy in Ukraine, a key ally of NATO that is behind all of this?
>>2903381Are you willing to rethink, thinkanon?
>>2903381>>2903385But what does this have to do with supplying refined oil products to Israel?
>>2903387I think the US is even worse than Ukraine, yet somehow its enemies failing to topple it hasn't left me feeling curious to find what I can fuck in a backalley of Philadelphia.
>>2903330What is retarded is the idea that capitalist Russia which has spent the last thirty five years sucking Western cock and licking American balls, which paints itself as a Christian nation like the nations of the West, that embraced capitalism and integrated itself into the global capitalist system, that sold off the state properties of Soviet Russia for bargain bin prices to foreign investors, that consumes Western media, that cucked out and did nothing to stop NATO expansion, is now in an authentic struggle with the West and cares about a couple of Russian speakers in the donbass.
Historical materialism teaches us to look for economic causes for the problems in the global capitalist system. For example, the great depression caused world war two. When examining the Ukraine war the biggest possible economic cause is the "Covid-19 recession" of global capitalism. You can read about it.
COVID-19 to Plunge Global Economy into Worst Recession since World War II
https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2020/06/08/covid-19-to-plunge-global-economy-into-worst-recession-since-world-war-iiCOVID-19 recession
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_recessionThe most logical explanation for a war between capitalist powers (Russia, Ukraine, the West) is an economic crisis of capitalism. When an economic crisis happens, workers suffer which can create revolutions. To prevent revolutions, capitalists create phony wars to get workers to destroy each other and prevent class consciousness.
>>2903388Nothing, that's the point dipshit. It's just another generic US-based org that's designed to direct blame for shit away from the US and its allies towards its enemies.
If the "supplies" (read: the sale of refined oil products on the open market) make up so much of Israel's consumption, why are Ukraine trying to eliminate Russian oil refining capacity while talking up what such great allies they are with Israel?
More to the point, when do you ever get to confronting the direct military supplies the west provides to Israel?
Perhaps because the DPRK merely survives against US sanctions and aggression, really I should develop the curiosity to find myself a fine Missouri woman who freely uses the word "Gook". That's how it works, right?
Or perhaps I need to go deep into Mississippi to find some enclave of people who thinks the Korean War was actually precipitated by the Jeju Massacre?
>>2903390finally a marxist post on this hitlerite wesbite
>>2903400>the last thirty five years sucking Western cock and licking American ballsYes, indeed, I believe this may be a reference to a famous quote in Anti-During
>>2903390The reason for war is not an abstract economic crisis, but rather a struggle for Euro energy market by Russia and USA and a struggle for Russian market by Euros.
For Euroids, it's a "how do we break Russia so that we buy Russian resources cheap and also flood their market with our goods leaving Russians with negative trade balance for us to exploit even further, like we did to Eastern Europe". Do keep in mind that Euroids had extremely profitable arrangements with Russia in the 90s, and they pushed for absolutely capitulatory deals with Russia, like Energy Charter Treaty, which would saw Russia be a pipeline transit country with no rights whatsoever to intervene into their own pipeline network, lmao, and also there was a stipulation so that even in the case of consumers not paying money, producers must still continue to provide oil to Euroids. This shit is what Euroids are after, ultimately
US take is that they have a horrible trade balance they need to fix by selling oil made in US, anywhere, for which they block other oil producers from producing and/or selling - thus they lobbied in countries like Poland and Hungary and Ukraine and Turkey incessantly to make them destroy pipelines going from Russia to Europe, culminating in USA supporting Ukraine war. When war happened, they no longer cared, achieving their goal, so now they are "neutral" - in that they'd like the war continue as long as possible to have Europe become reliant on US energy.
Russia wanted to sell oil and gas to Europe. That's it. That was the whole reason for dissoluton of USSR. Replacing Ukraine and Poland with multiple undersea pipelines was a way to deal with retarded nationalist governments, this resulted in, among other things, small-scale terrorism from greenpeace, random ass US-backed and Euro-backed lawsuits, etc etc. Political prisoners propaganda shit is also entirely due to economic pressure on Russia. What imperialism? Russia exploited every opportunity to go around hostile countries like Poland while also doing goodwill gestures like admitting to Katyn for propaganda points - and getting blasted with reparations demands, lmao (turns out, you have a relation to your predecessors! Shouldn't have denied Soviet and Nuremberg position that Katyn was done by Nazis). Last 35 years, all wars on Russia's borders were defensive in nature, Russia pursued stability. THAT SAID, Russia also did pants on head retarded shit like backing Yanukovich, who tried to play both Russia and Europe and wanted EU ascension AND Russian trade union benefits, instead of doing an oil deal with Timoshenko, but IMO that was a tactical mistake than it was an attempt to imperialize Ukraine
>>2903408Pick up the slack Sweden, joining NATO isn't like joining the Volvo Owner's Club. We don't talk about Defensive Driving, we talk about Offensive Nuclear Brinkmanship.
>>2903404>Last 35 years, all wars on Russia's borders were defensive in nature, Russia pursued stability. explain chechnya
the whole post is one big pile of crap but this one lie really gets me going
>>2903514Chechnya attacked Dagestan.
this shit is an inter-nazi war and i'm tired of pretending otherwise.
what's the point of caring if it's the atlanticist nafo banderite azov nazis or the rusisch duginite orthodox fundementalist russian monarchist imperialist putin-worshipping nazis who win?
how is this relevant to a leftist website if neither side will ever consider revolutionary defeatism, class war, the circumstances of the proletariat who suffer on both sides?
both sides also love israel btw think on that a little
>>2903800it would be weird if they didn't, every fourth israeli speaks russian at home
Russian neo-nazi Petrovsky was sentenced to life in prison for war crimes in Ukraine
<Russian neo-Nazi Jan Petrovsky was sentenced to life imprisonment for war crimes in Ukraine.
<Petrovsky is a co-founder of the Russian Nazi group “Rusich”, which fought in Ukraine on the side of Russian-backed militants and later the Russian army. He and Rusich fighters are accused of killing a total of 22 Ukrainian soldiers and seriously wounding four in the fall of 2014.
<In September 2014, near the village of Shchastya in the Luhansk region, “Rusich” militants ambushed and routed a column of the “Aidar” battalion. “Rusich” leader Oleksiy Milchakov, who took part in the operation, openly recounted how he took photos with the bodies of dead Ukrainian soldiers, while Rusych fighters cut off the ears of some of them.
<The court dismissed one charge that Petrovsky, who was the deputy commander of "Rusich," led the groupʼs fighters when they organized an ambush on Ukrainian soldiers.
<Petrovsky denied all charges. This is the first time Finland has charged a Russian for crimes committed in Ukraine.
<"Rusich" is a Russian neo-Nazi paramilitary group that is fighting alongside the Russian military in Ukraine. Yan Petrovsky became the commander of "Rusich" after his predecessor, neo-Nazi Oleksiy Milchakov, was wounded. Petrovsky faces 8 to 15 years in prison in Ukraine.
<Petrovsky was caught in Finland in July 2023 and identified by border guards. Since he is on the EU sanctions list under his former name, Jan Petrovsky, he was banned from entering Finland. He denied that he had intentionally violated the law, believing that the entry ban had already expired.
Flood detected;
i think what people are really concerned about, particularly europeans, is the possibility of a major upset in the post-ww2 geopolitical power balance that they have been accustomed to and building their entire economies around for the past 80 years. it's the same reason they've been scrambling to figure out ways to reduce their dependence on the us and build up their own renewable energy industries and militaries and even hedging their bets on china wherever necessary, because they know that russia would have never tried to pull this shit in earlier years and it is only because the us is failing and weakening and losing its global dominance that russia is pushing westward trying to take over ukraine. and it is very likely that the us will continue to get weaker and russia will be further emboldened to expand further into europe and invade more countries and try to take control over fossil resources/pipelines and western europe will end up in a difficult position, having to choose between abandoning their allies and eating russia's shit and praying it doesn't get any worse like they did with the germans, or retaliating and potentially starting world war 3. the cultural attitudes of russians and ukrainians aren't really that relevant to this, everyone already knows they're a bunch of drunken authoritarian bigots and even the most progressive democratic socialist countries in western europe aren't much better culture-wise, norwegians and swedes and finns are just as capable of drinking a quart of jager and beating up immigrants and throwing bananas onto a soccer field as anyone else is.
So now that the line is frozen, what went wrong?
>>2903840Putin is an honest denazifier. Russian nazis and Ukrainian nazis are killing each other for 4 years now. Da voynye!
>>2903869Widespread corruption and a culture of sycophantry made russian general staff think Ukraine was weaker and Russia stronger than they really were. Russia burned most of their fancy toys and trained soldiers in a failed opening leaving them with dregs and an industry strainong to support the war effort. They also got diplomatically swindeled by western powers who cleverly used any delay offered to them to reinforce Ukraine.
>>2903875Ukraine and Russia can find common ground and kiss in their love of jewish supremacy
>>2903892Putin and Wagner were BEST FRIENDS. What happen
>>2903892My favorite jewish restauranteur
>>2903965I fucking hate westoids and their psychoanalytical bullshit coming from Sigmund Fraud
>>2903875Tbh it's not that shocking they can find common ground in celebrating the defeat of the Nazis.
>>2904017Based, who need amerikanski acid water when you have KVASS?
>Axios, citing a source: Ukrainian officials said they have intelligence indicating Putin is planning a major escalation of the war.
Is it the Cherginov offensive, hitting the F16 sitting in shitty hangars or destroying NATO bunkers in Lvov? Hitting the F16 would be the best option, but you never know with him
Should workers support Russian crony capitalism more or Ukrainian crony capitalism more?
>>2904114>Should workers support Russian crony capitalism more or Ukrainian crony capitalism more?Neither. They should support revolutionary defeatism.
>>2904066Maybe Cucktin found some chinese wunderwaffen in his bunker
>>2904129More like old school bussification. Putler will make half of the posters here draftoids before this is over
The recent strikes on Kiev must have been pretty bad if the shill posts itt are any indication.
>>2904146Oh yeah.
We are gonna get drafted, you see. Unlike the busified copekrainians.
To all the nato-leftists.
What do you want to hear to change your position about the war?
I'll be reading you.
I'll leave my counter-answer once I get some feedback.
>>2904152You say something Pribalt? Some whining about muh subhuman vatniks?
>>2904185most nafoid shills are euros panicking because once russia wins their lives are basically fucking over
Expecting the nafo posting to get more hysterical as images start to pop up of Ukrainians starving.
>>2904185For the Kremlin to stop being xenophobic, homophobic, end its supp00rt for open reactoids (west and east), the panopticon shit, and obliterate the actual ukronazis (and its own nazis) instead of bombing power plants and shopping malls?
I think that ship sailed around when Crocus happened however. There was a chance they were actually gonna be serious about this whole "civilizational state" larp. But it's all bullshit.
>>2904186Hysterical
>>2904272Zionists at least for the most part like to deny they're doing this
>>2904349Thank you for taking time out of your busy sex tourism schedule to post
>>2904185Zyuganov should take power.
From time to time I wonder whatever happened to that hohol that was downloading Elder Ring as the SMO started.
grillpilled why arent you in the utg threads. Why did you come back?
>>2904360He finished the game and then had nothing to do for a while
>>2904261>not engaging in good faith.Ok, you don't come here to nuance your opinions. you are obviously a troll.
>>2904349📝
>>2904359📝
>>2904252📝
>>2904384No wonder Ukrainians do not want to defend Ukraine. It's a death sentence to be sent to the frontlines. And also, why Ukrainian nationalists are never to be seen anywhere near the frontlines: they still have a nation to build!
>>2904385Nationalism is built on strength. You can carve it out in a victim of your own nationalism, but launching aggression and failing? Nationalism doesn't survive humiliation like that.
Germany and Japan had the sense to surrender, at least. Ukrainian nationalists cut their own population in half, just so fuckwits in charge could buy Bentleys and properties abroad.
>>2904388Germany had child soldiers defending berlin, they didn't really surrender until the entire high command was swapped after the bunker party
>>2904393Yeah, Germans are a true slave race, couldn't even rise to defend themselves from annihilation. If it wasn't for Stalin's kindness, there would be no German state or people anymore
>>2904185What's there to be said? It would be difficult for anyone who thinks the SMO is not wholesome or historically progressive or justified by a photo of Ukrainians with swastikas to start fooling themselves that it is actually the case based on hearing something new about this conflict.
>>2904252absolutely nothing changes in my life whether russia loses or wins
>>2904393Ziggers like to say that ukrainians are authentic nazis with wunderwaffen, volksturm and all but they have the notion that they don't need to take kiyv to win the war, just throw hands in the donbass until the prophetized collapse in two weeks
>>2904419There was a race to Berlin between the USSR and Western Powers. There’s no race to Kiev this time around, if Russia only captures the territories it lays claim to via referendums and the conflict ends there, then Russia’s military expenditure goes way down again while the West is stuck with a Kiev whose appetite for givas will exponentially grow as it insists the West foots the bill for its rebuilding.
Which, lmao yeah, fat fucking chance of getting penny one out of the EU once the conflict is over.
>>2904421> then Russia’s military expenditure goes way downnta but what about the part of the russian population that was thrown to the grinder? I dont think this war was worth it
>>2904411That's just stopping another unified german state, it doesn't destroy germans, nobody in the german states saw itself exclusively as a bavarian or an hanoverian.
Wasn't Poland the one country that the US didn't care about and only exist because of the polish SSR ?
>>2904411So that's another thing to add to the long list of Stalin's fuckups
>>2904423If the Russian military is indeed all professional soldiers, then those men are already out of economic work at the point of joining rather than at the point of being thrown in the meat grinder. For a conscript army like Ukraine’s, you’re consuming labour in favour of the conflict and you do this only because the economy is already busted and not the primary concern for the leadership, rather it’s just about keep their heads connected to their necks for a bit longer.
That is to say, if Russia was to have serious manpower issues as a result of the conflict, we’d already be seeing it now as hundreds of thousands have already taken themselves out of the labour pool.
Although really it is only Ukraine that throws men into the meat grinder. As evidenced by their conscription preferences. They don’t want to kidnap young, healthy men with years of economic activity ahead of them, they want the old, sick and apparently soon women as that’s slightly less cannibalistic for their labour pool.
>Ukraine out of AD and getting smoked daily while trying to figure out how to justify conscription women to fill the dwindling ranks
>The west begging for ceasefire and sending glowies to Moscow to beg for same
>The last two Donbas fortresses preparing to fall
>Gonzalo Lira and Daria get to look down and watch Ukraine collapse
>Lindsey Graham has to look up and seethe at the same
Is it finally happening after all these years? warms the heart.
>>2904430It will actually be finally joever when conscripting under-25yos males is back on the table, presumably at NATO’s demand. It’s the only social contract Kiev seems to have with its population and so far it has been avoided with le drone warfare hype. If these attacks on Kiev are genuinely targeting drone production and presuming that drone production does in fact primarily take place in Ukraine and not abroad, then Kiev will run out of excuses for not conscripting 18-25yos. At that point we’ll have to see whether they comply with NATO’s demand at the risk of civil uprising or if they call it quits at that point.
>>2904431>it will be over when the nazis let the people have a civil uprising because of le social contract!haha
>>2904436TCC officers already getting stabbed for mobilising pure-blooded Ukrainians
>>2904415Wrong. If Russia wins your life gets worse because your government will increase military spending. If Russia loses your life will get worse because your government will send all money to Ukraine for reconstruction.
>But then how do I win?That's the neat part; you don't.
>>2904411Stalin's benevolence ruined the world in more ways than one. I wish he had been even 10% of the iron fisted dictator libs characterize him as, the USSR would still be around. Dude was born to be a trans woman that grows into a grandma that bakes cookies for the village children but fate had other plans.
>>2904411>Bavarians OUT of GermanyYes!!! Finally!!!
>>2904441If any wins my life gets better because cuckssia yearns to give us westoids cheap gas and fuel nato's industry, wether the fields are owned by gazprom or shell porkies it doesn't matter
>>2904441>your government will increase military spendingalready did and i live better than ever
>your government will send all money to Ukraine for reconstruction.yeah and we all know building infrastructure is bad for business
>>2904423>what about the part of the russian population that was thrown to the grinder?You fucking retards keep bleating about this but it's only a point if you ignore the fact that the destruction of Russia was nato's ultimate goal this entire time. Yeah it's awful that Russians are dying in war, but how many millions more would have died once the federation was dismantled and the statelets that came of it were also set against each other JUST LIKE WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW? And not only that, but then the burgerreich moves on to China as we know is the next big step?
Antiwar sentiment is just pro imperialism. "Um, I actually care about Russians, and them dying makes me sad, so nato should just get to do whatever it wants." Fuck off.
>>2904423not an issue, russians are disposable
So why is this war being waged again?
>inb4 le interimperialist conflict
If these airstrikes make the ukrop govt move to Lvov, I will stop calling him Cukin.
>>2904500Thank you for taking time off your busy schedule of eating shit to post nafoid
https://thefloutist.substack.com/p/russia-is-running-out-of-steam-really
<Guy Mettan.
>KURSK—For the past four months, we have been told over and over again that Russia is on its last legs. Putin, we are assured, is panicking, hiding in his bunker, while the Russian people are supposedly on the verge of rebellion, angry at having to queue at petrol stations running dry because of Ukrainian strikes on oil refineries. This narrative, tirelessly echoed by virtually every medium in the West, appears to have become an indisputable truth.
>Yet, when confronted with reality, this proves to be just as false as the many narratives that have preceded it since the beginning of Russia’s military offensive in 2022. In Moscow, hotels are packed with Indian, Saudi, and Turkish tourists. And in the provinces, even in areas close to the front line, such as the Kursk region, life goes on almost as if nothing of any consequence has happened.
>In early July, a conference organised by Southwest State University here to mark the 83rd anniversary of the famous tank battle of July 1943 in Kursk gave me the opportunity to travel across the oblast shaken by the Ukrainian invasion of August 2024 and to observe the state of mind of its inhabitants fifteen months after the Russian military forced Ukrainians back across the border and the fighting ended. I apply no filters in this report, no moral judgements: I write simply what I saw and heard. It is for readers to form their own opinions, as with any reportage worthy of the name.
>Late in the afternoon, the square in front of the opera house in the city of Kursk is crowded. Groups of young people are listening to music, and passers-by pay little attention to the occasional sirens or the anti-drone alerts appearing on their smartphones. The streets are clogged with traffic, shopping centres are packed, and grocery stores are overflowing with fresh fruit and vegetables.
>In the outlying districts, the situation is somewhat more tense. Drone attacks occur daily. The power station in Lgov, along the Seym River 80 kilometres west of here, is targeted almost every night, and some neighbourhoods regularly experience power cuts. Most households are equipped with backup generators.
>The oblast’s fields are being cultivated and, here and there, roads are being repaired. Contrary to appearances, there is no shortage of diesel or gasoline for vehicles designed to run on these fuels. Some petrol stations, however, are besieged by long queues, except for those taking advantage of the shortages to double their prices.
>In Lgov, which is a small village in the Rilsk area, Anatoly, an old farmer, shows us the damage caused by a drone attack on 22 May. For reasons he still does not understand, three drones targeted his home in less than ten minutes during the night. The first missed its target and left a large crater in the meadow. The second destroyed his brother’s house—fortunately, his brother was at work at the nuclear power plant in Kurchatov, some forty kilometres away.
>The third obliterated his garage, car, and farming equipment, damaged his barn and house, and injured his wife. He shows us the wreckage of his car and the remains of the drone. He has only recently returned home. A team of around ten volunteers from all over Russia has already repaired the roof and façade and is completing the reconstruction of the stable. Under the amused gaze of a stork, other volunteers—mostly retirees—are busy restoring the neighbouring cultural centre, whose windows were blown out by the explosions and shrapnel.
>These volunteer movements are far from isolated. In Kursk, Svetlana and the organisers of the “House of Good Deals,” an aid-distribution centre for those forced from their homes during the incursion, tell us how they spontaneously assembled aid for the thousands of refugees who fled the southern districts of the region during the Ukrainian invasion. Through appeals on social media, they managed to collect donations from across Russia within a matter of days and provide food, clothing, and shelter to thousands of bewildered people by transforming Belinskaya Street into an open-air relief centre.
>They did so entirely on their own initiative, without any state intervention. One of the volunteers laughingly hands me a copy of the front page of the Financial Times, showing her surrounded by tired and disoriented people under the caption: “Refugee abandoned by Putin!” She is not the slightest offended.
>Near another village further on, an industrial farm suffered irreparable damage from a salvo of American-made HIMARS missiles. The silos have been ripped open, machinery destroyed, and the roofs of the sheds have collapsed. The last major attack took place in March. Only a few days ago, a strike with a first-person-view drone, an F.P.V., tore a hole in the roof of a large residential building, fortunately causing no casualties. Our visit is protected by an anti-drone jamming system deployed on the ground and, in principle, we are perfectly safe. On the ground floor of one building in the village, an elderly woman can be seen calmly going about her business in the kitchen, utterly unfazed.
>Such is life in the regions close to the front.■
>What is the mood among the population? Are people rebelling against Putin? Are they weary of a war that has now lasted more than four years?
>After several days of visits and meetings in the Kursk region, I am convinced that these questions preoccupy European visitors far more than they do local inhabitants, who have learned to live with war and who, above all, have the feeling of having relived in 2024, when the Ukrainians invaded, what their grandparents endured in the summer of 1943, when Nazi Germany attempted, on this very ground, to break Soviet resistance and crush the Red Army. It was the largest battle of the Second World War, and perhaps in human history, bringing together six million combatants, 6,000 tanks, 4,000 aircraft, and 40,000 artillery pieces—and causing 1.1 million casualties.
>Ukrainian losses during the 2024 invasion are estimated at around 40,000 dead and missing, approximately 1,000 armoured vehicles lost on each side, some 300 Russian civilians killed, and 130,000 refugees displaced. But it is not the scale of the forces engaged or the losses sustained that prompt recollections of the World War II Battle of Kursk. No, they arise because of the nature and symbolism of the fighting. From the Russian perspective, the rhetoric employed by President Zelensky, the timing and location of the attack (6 August 2024 versus 5 July 1943, with Kursk as the focal point in both cases), and the forces involved—a coalition of Western countries and mercenaries confronting a besieged Russia—amount to a smaller-scale remake of the Nazi offensive of 1943, which included not only the Wehrmacht but also Italian, Romanian, Hungarian, and Croatian army corps.
>I was also told that, during the Ukrainian withdrawal last year, Ukrainian troops set fire to a church in whose foundations the remains of 300 Hungarian soldiers were discovered a few months ago. They had been executed by the SS in 1943 after laying down their arms instead of fighting the Red Army. For the inhabitants of Kursk, situated at the crossroads of successive invasions, history often seems to stutter.
>At Ponyri, the epicentre of the German offensive some forty kilometres north of Kursk, the new memorial complex commemorating the great battle, inaugurated in 2023, depicts a Soviet soldier pushing apart two German tanks with his bare hands. Visible from miles away, the monumental memorial lists the Heroes of the Soviet Union who fell in battle—and awaits, perhaps, those of 2024.
>A new annex has already been built displaying the wreckage of Stryker, Marder, Humvee, and MaxxPro vehicles destroyed during the Ukrainian invasion, together with an impressive collection of Western weapons recovered from the battlefield: drones, machine guns, shells, grenades, ammunition, and missile launchers manufactured in Italy, Sweden, the United States, France, South Africa, and Turkey.
>This arsenal illustrates the scale of Western military assistance to Ukraine and the military graveyard that this war has become on both sides of the front. For Russians, there is no doubt that they are now fighting the collective West in a total and merciless war, with Ukraine reduced to little more than a proxy in this deadly confrontation. And this perception exists without any need for “Putin’s propaganda” to embellish it.
>This is perhaps the principal lesson I take away from my stay: Rightly or wrongly, Russians feel that they are once again threatened with invasion and destruction and that the offensive of the summer of 2024 was merely a local prelude to the current attacks against their civilian population and infrastructure. Every day, schools and buses are targeted and civilians are killed. Under such circumstances, and as long as this threat persists, they believe that surrender or concessions to the enemy are simply out of the question. With Putin or without him—that is not the issue.■
>Alexander Khinstein has been governor of the Kursk Oblast since 21 September 2025. He was tasked with rebuilding the region after the Ukrainian occupation of 2024–2025. What follows are extracts from his responses to our questions.
<How did the population experience the invasion by the Ukrainian Armed Forces in 2024?
>It is important to understand that the Kursk region is much more than a border territory. A thousand years ago, Kursk was founded as Russia’s principal southern outpost and has fulfilled this defensive mission throughout the centuries. The same is true today.
>In the summer of 2024, the region faced an unprecedented challenge: the invasion by the Ukrainian Armed Forces. Nothing comparable had occurred in our country since the Second World War. It was an attempt to terrorise civilians, take hostages, and destroy infrastructure. Tens of thousands of residents were forced to flee their homes in an emergency, taking with them only what they could carry. People lost their homes and the fruits of lifetimes’ work, while some lost what was most precious of all—their loved ones.
>What did this period reveal? It revealed—I say this without hesitation—the heroic character of the people who live on this land. The entire country mobilised in support of the Kursk region, and local residents demonstrated unprecedented solidarity by donating supplies, giving blood, providing food and accommodation, and supplying everything that was needed.
>Today, following the complete liberation of our territory, life has largely returned to normal, although we continue to live and work under difficult conditions, facing constant threats and daily provocations from the enemy.
>The consequences are severe: destroyed homes and damaged infrastructure. Yet the entire country stands with us and provides considerable support. That is why we are confident that we will overcome these difficulties.
<What are your priorities as governor, particularly regarding security?
>Security has always been—and remains—our absolute priority. Unfortunately, under present circumstances the threat is real and permanent. Enemy drones are increasing in both range and speed. The time available to warn the population and protect critical infrastructure has been reduced to minutes or even seconds. In our region, it is no longer enough to implement isolated protective measures; we must build an integrated defence system.
>Since early last year, the Kursk region, together with the Ministry of Defence and other security agencies, has been developing a civilian air-defence system based on the volunteer battalion BARS–Kursk. Data from the counter-measures systems of all security services are consolidated in a single command centre. Information on drone flights comes from numerous sources, ranging from mobile applications to street cameras. In this way, we have effectively integrated military and civilian capabilities into a unified monitoring centre.
>We have also begun developing mobile air-defence teams, primarily tasked with protecting energy facilities. Together, these measures constitute the regional segment of a unified national centre.
>This is not merely a local initiative. It is a modern security model that can—and should—be extended throughout Russia. The experience of Kursk is already serving as the basis for similar initiatives in other regions.
<And what about the economy? How can recovery be stimulated under such conditions?
>The challenges faced by our region have been colossal, particularly for the economy. By order of the President of Russia, the government adopted a comprehensive programme for the recovery and development of the affected territories of the Belgorod, Bryansk, and Kursk regions through to 2030. This programme provides the foundation for reconstruction. It envisages not only restoring what has been destroyed but also implementing key socioeconomic development projects.
>What have we done to stabilise the situation? We have succeeded in increasing budgetary revenues. As before, social expenditure remains our principal budgetary priority. Naturally, the federal government and our colleagues within the Russian government have provided considerable assistance.
>One of the key economic support measures is the Special Economic Zone regime, which offers tax incentives for new investments and business creation. At present, it applies to nine border districts where temporary relocations have taken place, but we are working to extend it to the entire region.
>We are currently implementing seven investment projects worth more than 200 billion roubles [$2.3 billion]. These projects will create more than 1,000 jobs and significantly improve the economic situation of the region.
<And what is the mood of the population? Has it suffered from the effects of the invasion?
>I speak regularly with local residents. And do you know what I see? No panic, no fear, no anxiety. I see unity, calm, and a willingness to help. People clearly understand what is happening and why. Moreover, they strongly support our army, which continues to advance step by step on all fronts. The Kursk region is a reliable rear base—a home front upon which one can always depend.
>The reaction to the crimes committed by Ukrainian militants during the invasion, and continuing to this day, is a subject in itself. What Ukrainian militants did in the occupied territories of our region constitutes pure 21st century Nazism: looting, torture, murders of civilians, violence and abuse against the elderly. Together with law-enforcement agencies, we are documenting every crime, and criminal proceedings have been initiated in every case.
>I am deeply convinced that a second Nuremberg-style trial awaits us: Those who gave the orders and those who carried them out will be held accountable for every crime, without exception. This is not merely a legal matter—it is a matter of human conscience.
>My message is simple: What the Ukrainian Armed Forces militants did on the soil of Kursk amounts to genocide and Nazism in its most abhorrent form. They are no different from the fascists of the Great Patriotic War. Europe, which once condemned Nazism and anti-humanism, cannot fail to see and understand this reality. Supporting an openly Nazi regime that glorifies the Second World War’s war criminals is a crime against the memory of those who fought fascism eighty years ago alongside the Soviet Union and the Allied anti–Hitler coalition. They are completely insane. It was a drone you could buy from Amazon, not a single piece of evidence was provided, except we just have to take the word of the "intelligence community" for it. Also, none of those alleged "hybrid attacks" resulted in any injuries or damages. Can't say the same for the Ukrainian terrorist attack in Monaco where they killed that oligarch a few weeks past.
As a result, Germany will suspend the rest of bilateral cultural treaties, renewed in 2011, with Russia, which were a direct result of the post-war order and the treaties that were made with the Soviet Union 1990 in during the reunification. That includes maintaining solider cemeteries and Soviet monuments, and the "Russisches Haus" in Berlin, which will also be closed - tearing down the last remaining communist monuments in Berlin and the East was always a goal of liberals and conservatives in Germany, but before they weren't allowed to do so due to international treaties.
>It's le great patriotic war!
as a farce
>>2905037Man they're not even trying to hide it huh.
Zelensky threatens ‘every airline’ in Russian airspace>Ukraine’s Vladimir Zelensky has issued what he called a “warning” to every single airline using Russian airspace, stating that any aircraft flying through it would be threatened by Ukrainian drones. President Vladimir Putin called the statement a “declaration of state terrorism.”<On Tuesday, Zelensky claimed that Kiev would be “closing” Russian airspace by virtually darkening the skies with drones. “Today, we want to warn every airline that uses Russian airspace, every insurer, and everyone who still uses Russia’s key airports: Russian airspace is becoming completely unsafe,” he stated in a video address published on Telegram.>“Safe days in Russia’s skies are over,” he claimed, adding that his threat was addressed to “the airlines currently flying to airports primarily in Moscow, St. Petersburg, and other key destinations in Russia.”https://swentr.site/russia/644990-zelensky-threatens-airlines-russia/So now we know what this Leipzig business was all about
>>2905022 I think at this point Ukraine is more privileged than Israel now. Sure they get full MSM cover for whatever they choose to do and supplies, but engineering a whole scandal around a "Russian" drone attack against Ukrainian cargo planes in Germany that didn't damage anything or kill anyone or even provide an explosion to broadcast to the world, in order to justify NATO-produced drones being used in a way that """"potentially"""" carries the risk of blowing up a civilian airliner
and announcing this all upfront is beyond the pale.
>inb4 erm ackshually Zelensky is just boasting how many drones he's sending
Well flights in Moscow were already routinely grounded as result of long range drone activity, it was already mandatory Ukrainian state-issued joy to see photos of Russian holidaymakers sleeping on the floor in airports.
>>2905181what's the airplane situation in ukraine?
>>2905228Closed since 2022 because Ukraine is supposedly fighting a defensive conflict in their territory. Now apparently Zelensky wants to lay claim to Russian airspace, presumably to cope with failing to retain anything from Kursk. Make that make sense.
That being said, this is almost certainly peremoga than a genuine threat since this is the exact same rhetoric Zelensky used to claim that the Victory Day parade in Moscow was only possible with his approval since apparently then Ukraine “owned” Moscow’s airspace.
And really how can he lose? If airlines like Turkish Airlines or Emirates heeds the warning and stops flying, then great! Zelensky is a successful terrorist does apparently have command of Russia’s skies, if they continue to fly however, then no matter because I’m sure some supa sekret meeting happens where Turkey and the UAE begged Zelensky for amnesty that he gracefully granted thus also proving he has dominance of Russia’s airspace.
Oh also gunfights between the SBU and HUR on the streets of Kiev, being going on for like 10 hours at this point, but will almost certainly turn out to be a nothingburger.
lol the shootout between gur and sbu being blamed on "ruzzia", beyond parody
>>2905022jup, Stalin indeed made a huge mistake
>>2905251I feel like this would be big news for the "Ukraine collapse status" anons, but it's surprisingly quiet ITT
>>2904349>>2904359So what I gather is that your take is Russia isn’t progressive enough for it to be an option you’d side with in this conflict, as much as you’d want to.
In perspective, you would condemn the bourgeoisie in the English Civil War of 1640–1660, because the bourgeoisie isn't a progressive force. Or the French revolution's bourgeoisie, because again the bourgeoisie isn't a revolutionary force.
pic semirelated. >>2905272Not even watching it because regardless of what D-Mac did or didn’t claim about Ukraine’s chances in this conflict, there isn’t really anything strategic about Ukraine’s refusal to surrender other than a willingness to buy time with making human shields out of civilians.
Every day Ukraine refuses to surrender and au contraire chooses to escalate further is treated as its own victory, but if we dare to imagine diplomacy and compromise aren’t crimes against humanity, what have they gained by choosing total war with Russia compared to just committing to the Minsk agreements?
It seems that pro-Ukrainians think any amount of loss is acceptable because the EU and the next Democrat US president is just going to pay to rebuild Ukraine into a better country than before, but I can’t see any official commitment made to this end. Only promises that the west will stuff money into whatever pockets necessary to earn Ukraine its daily victory.
>>2904252>>2904408I just wanted to take a different approach beyond the usual bickering, trolling, or counter-argument.
See, I watched closely this jubilee video with tim pool; someone recommended it to me; and I knew after watching it why he recomended it. tim pool here moves to defend the republican party denying its white supremacist nature, to then posturing why white supremacism is good, after a series of spins where he gets cornered. Partisan hacks never argue in good faith, and if you can argue in a clever way, they usually end up in a corner where either they will tell you that there's something that can change their minds or, simply, they will reveal their true nature: people that will end up defending the same things they condemned initially. Just like tim pool does in the video.
So my idea is not to insist about something they don't want to admit, because the more I insist, the more they will entrench themselves into their position. No matter the evidence.
No. I want to try the approach in where they finally are caught into two contradictory statements, said by themselves, to see what are they gonna do. A tim pool move, a partisan hack move, or if they are genuinely interesting in learning.
>>2905248yep, even sharij commenting on the event.
>A shootout between Main Intelligence Directorate (GUR) and Security Service (SBU) officers occurred in Kiev's Berezniaky district, according to Kiev-based public channels.
>At the same time, the SBU also stated that it, together with the GUR, thwarted an assassination attempt on "one of the leaders of the Russian opposition national movement."So the official narrative is that the SBU with the GUR thwarted an assassination plot, but ukranian media is saying that the SBU officials kidnaped stephan kaplunov, commander of the nazi-vlasovite rvc, and the GUR was rescuing him.
>>2905278>>2905248This is the news article where it says that the nazi-vlasovite rvc was kidnaped by "unknown" individuals
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2026/09/01/8051378/I guess in the following days either the truth is revealed, or the command was freed by an invisible hand.
Morning footage of the event, attached.
>>2905273Ukraine has attempted to foster peace treaties with Russia and they have all been rejected. Putin doesn't want compromise with Ukraine.
>>2905282The peace treaty offers to Moscow is
>Fuck off and forget about the Minsk Agreements alreadySo they haven’t really, that’s not a compromise, it’s just reiterating that they still think continued conflict is preferable to just abiding by an agreement they’d already signed.
>>2905278>>2905281Ah I can’t get to excited about it, although it looks pretty bad to have them actually shooting at each other in the capital, their factional loyalties in government are rumoured and doesn’t seem to originate in government.
So unfortunately I completely expect that the Ukrainian government will tell them to kiss and make up and they will.
>>2905284If you were Zelenskyyyyyy,
what would you do, then?
Just let Russia occupy you until the next inevitable conflict?
The issue is that Russia is making a claim on sovereign territory, while Ukraine is defending sovereign territory. Putin doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO, but what is the result of this conflict leading towards? A Russian victory is just a land invasion; conquest. I have no sympathy.
>>2905282But anon, isn't the ukranian map going to include even crimea?
or even the "greater ukraine"?
>>2905286yeah, this is low-level factional infight. Unfortunately, no one is paying some of the higher-ups to take arms against the government.
>>2905288It’s “sovereign territory” because Kiev denied the local population their right to self-determination. That’s what the Minsk Agreements were supposed to resolve, Ukraine violently responding to people exercising their human rights.
>>2905293I presume you also support secession in the United States?
Self-determination and all that.
>>2905300Their military must be fucking massive by now, I bet soldiers need only spend five minutes there playing around with some drones before being sent home with a big pay check in their pocket for carrying out their duty
>Great Britain, the Netherlands, Italy and Germany urge their citizens not to travel to Ukraine, and those who are already there to immediately leave its territory.
>European countries are warning of intensifying attacks and a difficult winter with prolonged blackouts of light, water and heat.
>Due to constant air raid sirens, the Verkhovna Rada is planning to move its work to the basement.
>Several special rooms and corridors in the basement will be set up for deputies.>>2904747They moved, but not in the direction you expected.
>>2905302Any time soon, as massive as it is, they'll make the
greater ukraine. or greater copekraine.
I love that people chuck out legal terms like “Sovereignty” and assume it’s an absolute good and a universal right. Wikipedia defines it as
>Sovereignty is generally defined as supreme, independent control and lawmaking authority over a territory.
the key part being “over a territory”, Sovereignty doesn’t require that you have a mandate from the people on that territory. Just that you have the (externally) recognised authority to do whatever you want in that territory, if what you want is to tell everyone to stop speaking their mother tongue because it infringes with your sovereignty then it comes into conflict with self-determination.
Before the language became a matter of “sovereignty” in Ukraine, there weren’t any problems of this scale in Ukraine. Then Banderites did make it a matter of Sovereignty and in that case bombing people for speaking the wrong language to the west’s approval is, in of itself, an act of “Sovereignty” but it’s not in the Ein Volk, Ein Reich Ein Fuhrer but wholesome people seem to think.
but it’s not in the Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer but wholesome way people seem to think sovereignty works.*
marx debunked russians
engels debunked brits
this means if you are a british zigger you are a revolutionary potential black hole
>Bloomberg: Europe is pressuring Spain and Greece to provide Kiev with air defense systems.
>These countries possess some of the largest stockpiles of Patriot missiles among Kiev's allies.
>>2905325Selfish bastards, why does Ukraine even need to ask?
>>2905327>why does Ukraine even need to ask?ugh, right? they are also vacationing:
>>2905297Can't they just work overtime, keep grinding, and skip vacations until
the last ukrainian is gone or ukraine wins?
it's not enough involvement already.
>>2905297Based EU officials copying Xi by sitting and doing nothing. If only Zelensky and Putin could learn from such wisdom.
>>2905338I know that childlike feeling, you know your parents promised you givas but they’re not hurrying up and telling me they’ll givas later, I think anyone would start throwing a tantrum on the floor of diplomacy.
>>2905360It’s quite funny how a supposed armed attack by the Russian military on German soil is a “Hybrid” attack that Berlin won’t trigger the sacred Article 4 just in case that results in escalation.
Putin since 2022:
>Please don't escalate I need Europe trading with me so Russia doesn't become China's warehouse please just Donetsk and Lugansk are enough please I will just use Oreshniks on empty buildings please
NATO:
DRONES WITH RUZZIAN PASSPORTS ATTACHED ON THEM ARE ATTACKING A GERMAN MINOR AIRPORT, ARTICLE 5 NOW
>>2905293so is it local population or is it russian minority?
>>2905389Accurate, but somehow the latter does seem more pathetic lmao
The leaders of the EU act like they’re committing insurance fraud, everything seems to revolve around proverbially throwing themselves to the ground and howling like a sissy to gain a settlement by which it’s now not an escalation to bomb Russian civilians.
>>2905441Why are those presented as two different options? The local population are majority Russian.
>>2905448oh nyo not the russian civilians expiriencing what ukrainians have been subjected to for years
what have they done to deserve this?
>>2905456because local population would mean natives and russian minority immigrants from russia
>>2905460Well Azov and other Banderites claim they’re super popular in Ukraine and advocated for a bloody battle against the moskals, so that.
>local population would mean nativesFirstly, no it doesn’t. Secondly, they are natives. Their families lived in that territory for longer that the modern Ukrainian state has existed.
Also if Ukraine pursues decommunisation and hates everything about the USSR which it considers illegitimate, then how can they continue to claim sovereignty over the 1991 borders?
>>2905292Self-immolations when?
>>2905395>EU flag It DOESN’T get sadder than this lmao
>>2905467doesn't make them natives
>>2905477are you implying they should start claiming 1917 borders instead?
>>2905508Sorta looks like they already do
>>2905289I’d love to see that though, trying to take territory from Russia, Poland, Belarus and Moldova over a 1917 claim that didn’t seemingly get recognised by anyone other than partially the Bolsheviks when creating the Ukrainian SSR.
>>2905505If you’ve existed on territory before the state that now claims sovereignty over it, then yeah you are a native. To deny that is zionism.
>>2905517ironically it's the very same lie zionists push
>>2905525It's actually chronically ironic how close Zionist and Banderite territorial claims are framed, both involve long forgotten "memories" of their existence in their respective territories. I shit ye nay a lot of the territory Ukrainian nationalists lay claim to (especially their 1917 borders) comes down to "Cossack memories", as in the absolute borders of what can be "remembered" that nomads had ridden within.
>>2905531It speaks to the flexibility of what exactly a Ukrainian is, to shore up their claim to 1991 borders then of course everyone who falls within them are Ukrainians, but then based on Banderite ideology practically no one is Ukrainian because there's very few who literally cannot speak or understand any other language than Ukrainian and doesn't have some kind of familial connection to Russia, Belarus, Poland, Hungary, etc.
Again, this is very similar to Israeli nationalism, that too is very flexible veering from uber-inclusive western social liberalism to outright apartheid state depending on who they're talking to.
russian claim over eastern europe stems from a muscovite khagan claiming to be the ceasar of all ruthenia (despite not holding any of the ruthenias at the time of that claim) so you shouldn't be the one tossing stones over dodgy claims
>>2905561Well look Zionists are correctly identified as religious fanatics when they claim some sky dude promised them lands, but Ukrainians being like
>Nomadic horsemen rode on your land once, gib me datis not identified for the retardation it is.
Is it normal that I stopped believing RU/UA historical claims because since 2014 they became increasingly retarded and purely made-up?
Examples:
>UA coat of arms is khazar temga
<Reality is it is one of the coat of arms of the Ruriks
>Photo of Gulag having child inmates
<Reality is the photo was a cropped version of a reenactment the day after the liberation of a concentration camp in finland
>>2905566Actually I think the origins of contemporary Russia are with the rise of the Rurik dynasty.
>>2905575Yes, because history is irrelevant. There wasn't a civil war in Ukraine because history reached into the present and demanded it, it's because Ukraine couldn't join NATO or the EU with millions of people who identified as Russians because that's almost like admitting Russia itself to both.
Already there was huge oppression against Russians within the Baltic states to more or less assure that an identifying Russian will never become the political or military leader of their countries, but it doesn't apply to Ukraine because unlike the Baltics there actually is a meaningful military to be utilised for both the oppression and (more importantly) for opposing that oppression.
https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/ndr-wdr/leipzig-drohne-russland-100.htmlApparently German police caught a Belarusan guy who was originally "operating" in the Baltics, whose DNA was found on the infamous drone.
I can't believe this horseshit is now going to be the second Bucha. Nobody was even injured, no property was damaged and the drone was disabled by a fucking bus driver.
Meanwhile Ukraine blows people up in Monaco but no biggie
The biggest terrorist threat in Europe is going to be Azovites after Ukraine disintegrates.
>>2905579i realize that larp is central for russian identity so i won't even bother to discredit that claim once again because i know it all falls on deaf ears anyway
>>2905595So do your numerous bans so quit whining like a Ukrainian.
The annoying thing about this thread is that you have people that support Russia because of verifiable facts on the one hand and people that support nato because of imaginary bullshit on the other.
>>2905269>So what I gather is that your take is Russia isn’t progressive enough for it to be an option you’d side with in this conflict, as much as you’d want to.That's the crux of it. There was a promise that for all its flaws Russia was going down a "progressive" route. Tear down the post-Soviet borders, act like an actual "civilizational state", etc. With Putin becoming someone Zelensky could never be, i.e. the world spirit looking beyond the pettiness of ethnonationalism, dismantling the post-cold war order.
But it's all bullshit. See for example how they dealt with the Crocus aftermath. Instead of telling reactoids to stfu, they decided to placate them. The same goes for all this "traditionalist" nonsense in general. Like sure, I dunno if you're one of them. But if you believe people who swear by "no fags, no migrants, traditionalist gender roles" are gonna do communism tomorrow then you do you.
I also can't take this "anti-nazi" argument very seriously when they invite reactoids and people like Kayne West to Russia. Or they think it's okay to bomb power plants and shopping malls full of proles/ civilians but not funerals full of nazis.
Like say what you want about Zionists, but when they declare someone a threat they go straight for the jugular. No one's off-limits. Not Hamas leaders, not Nasrallah, not the Supreme Leader. Doesn't matter if they're surrounded by hundreds of civilians; they get eliminated.
Aside from that they failed to save Maduro and are now rubbing shoulders with… the Taliban and a former member of Al-Qaeda (who also helped depose Assad).
It's all bleak realpolitik and bourgeois ethnonationalism. Pity both sides can't lose an all that.
>you would condemn the bourgeoisie in the English Civil War of 1640–1660 The difference here is that the current Kremlin leadership did not come to power after deposing a (feudal) aristocracy and are now trying to enforce a (despicable) status quo (like say Haiti).
But I do think Cromwell here is a good example of the problem; you can admire and recognize the progressive cause in ending the reign of Charles (and his attempt at absolutism). Whilst still condemning Cromwell for the religious fundamentalism and what happened in Ireland. Similar to how its possible to approve of Putin cracking down on some oligarchic excesses after 1999 as well as domestic reactionaries (sometimes literal nazis). Whilst not approving of cozying up to reactionaries (both domestically and abroad) nowdays or the Ukraine shitshow.
It's not that
I disagree with killing nazis it's that I disagree with how this war is fought, and what the Kremlin is doing domestically and internationally nowadays.
That could change (stranger things have happened), but I doubt it will.
>>2905665>people that support nato because of imaginary bullshit Like what? Who actually (uncritically) supports NATO here anyway? Other than that racist drive-by Bulgarian?
>>2905728All the NATO shills dumb enough to openly declare it get banned.
All that remains is tacit support for NATO by opposing Russia no matter what, and its fight against NATO is not a factor at all.
Why the biggest, most powerful, most damaging anti-communist organization in history is not a factor to alleged "communists" is never explained by them. The best you get are examples of someone else doing anti-communism.
>>2905886No, they're "not real socialism", so they're not obligated to care when the heart of reactionary darkness feasts.
>>2905269>Or the French revolution's bourgeoisie, because again the bourgeoisie isn't a revolutionary force.I think a better analogy for Putin is Napoleon III or maybe Santa Anna. Like the whole trying to restore former glory thing and enjoying a great deal of success for awhile before crashing out while starting a war with Prussia that ended up paving the way to a united Germany.
>>2905725>Like say what you want about Zionists, but when they declare someone a threat they go straight for the jugular. No one's off-limits. People would say that Harbu Darbu song was cringe but most of the people those Israeli zoomers said they were going to kill did get killed. Well except for Dua Lipa and Mia Khalifa but I wouldn't put it past them. But Putin is much more of the Bonapartist leader given his tendency toward indecision and inability to commit. Policy is driven by short-term tactical opportunities.
Another residential ammo dump just went bang.
You’d have thought that after the last few cases of “negligence” that they’d have hauled it all out of residential areas. But that’s the narrative Zelensky is apparently going with, it’s negligence rather than intentional but sorry you’re going to have to live with negligence.
What’s going on? 40 days silence to pay respects to the 40 day peace plan?
>>2906359He replied to himself saying it was a joke since it went viral. Also prostitution is illegal in China.
I don't understand Zelensky's latest threat here. Ukraine has already managed to shut down Russian airports before using drones so it's well within his capabilities to do it again for much longer if he spends the drones for such a purpose but…why? I don't think anything important is flying in to Russia that could alter the course of the war anyways. Unless he starts hitting the civilian airliners bringing in foreign recruits, but the Russian government should be smart enough (at least I hope they're smart enough but let's be honest here Cucktin excels at failing to meet expectations) to be spacing out mercenaries on multiple inbound flights and mixing them in with random civilians to ensure that Ukraine can't just automatically destroy every new contingent of volunteers. I don't understand what the point of it is? At least with Wildberries you could argue it was about sabotaging Russia's economy and accelerating a crash but wtf does Russia import in by air that is so absolutely vital that it couldn't just import via train over land instead? How would committing 9/11 on Russia repeatedly change anything?
>>2906737they gonna start shooting civilian planes out of the sky just like russia does maybe
>>2906782The worst part about that is Russia's IFF tracking system is so shit that Zelensky will easily be able to pass it off as Russia's air defense malfunctioning again because Russia has already randomly shot down civilian planes of their neighbors (like Azerbaijan which immediately ruined their diplomatic relations).
New topic: The mystery of the exploding SBU office. Was it a Russian drone? Or a continuance of the SBU and GUR feud? Could it be… happening?
>>2906804>Ukraine is so unafraid of the prophesied imminent collapse that two of their security services are having a full blown civil war in the middle of the war with Russia because they think their internal disputes are more important than anything Russia can ever do It's not looking good for The Russia…
>>2906804just glowie on glowie violence, GTA V warned us about this, they're just there to make money and advance their own org, it's a nothingburger unless enough people care about it
>>2906818>GTA V warned us about thisGTA V had a story? Wasn't it just a run-people-over-with-cars simulator?
>>2906815lol, oh you’re serious, lmao then
I assume it was a lot cleaner when in service of the Ukrainian prime minister, but honestly who knows?
>>2906804This was always going to happen, imho, as the war grinds on and on different factions within the Ukrainian state will fight for dominance. My main hope is that they fully implode in the process, but i think all the spooks in London and all the spooks in Washington are sure to make sure that doesn't happen.
>>2906832I think the first 2 minutes of that was, bar none, the most ridiculous cutscene I've ever witnessed from any Western videogame trying to take itself seriously. What the fuck? I thought Rockstar had a rep for telling interesting stories? That entire setup was retarded. What was going on in the writer's room?
>Ok so they're talking with each other and now here comes the moment of betrayal and his two friends come in to clean up>Oh but actually the guys aren't in agreement with each other so now it's a standoff>And then the glowies come in to point more guns >And then the other guy calls in his FBI squad to get even more guns in>And then a fucking helicopter flies in out of nowhere to get even more guns in>One guy shoots another and then rather than everyone opening fire they all run away to ensure the protagonist now has enough enemies to plow through a scripted linear shooter encounterwhat the FUCK?
>>2906848>I thought Rockstar had a rep for telling interesting stories?Nobody thinks that, no. Over the top satire is the name of the game.
>>2906850>Red Dead Redemption 1+2>LA Noire>Max Payne >GTA 4All were supposedly praised for having good and interesting stories.
>>2906854GTA V was really the only one that was goofy on purpose.
>>2906854GTA has always been over the top and campy anon, idk what to tell you.
There is currently news in Ukraine guys…
I will say however GTA is best when the story is basically immaterial, in the 3D era they apparently just designed whatever missions they thought were fun and built a narrative around it. It’s the HD era where that got reversed so the missions became about serving a story but the stories never progressed really from the betrayal and revenge plot of the 3D games anyway.
>>2906845>but i think all the spooks in London and all the spooks in Washington are sure to make sure that doesn't happen.They can't be everywhere at once, surely.
>>2906684Now that's comedy.
Speaking of GTA, I was teaching my 8 mo daughter killing cops with flamethrower in GTA2 today.
>>2907013What's comedy gold is this:
>RKIK's then director general, Magnus-Valdemar Saar, disputed the claim and told Eesti Ekspress he acknowledged that buying ammunition from third countries entails risks, but said that no major decision was made without the approval of the ministry's leadership.>Magnus-Valdemar Saarhttps://news.err.ee/1610125852/estonia-takes-defense-firm-to-court-over-70-million-contract-for-shells-for-ukraine Ukraine tried to declare a unilateral ceasefire to impress US diplomats, thread is dead with no cuckoldry evaluation, still going to hear later how no one on leftypol really supports NATO.
>>2907215>unilateralNo, they tried to declare a BIlateral ceasefire.
>>2907058so what happened with the court proceedings ? I can't see any fines or anything,did they just settle on cancelling the orders and did they get the money back ?
>>2907224<and Russia must do the sameYeah
>>2907215Ukraine isn't going to bomb American officials when they're vising Russia don't be retarded.
>>2907230Yeah? When Russia declared their intent to ceasefire in the expectation that would be reciprocated by Ukraine, that was cucked apparently.
>>2907240Only needs to be a ceasefire for Moscow, not all of Russian airspace.
>>2907249The Ukrops don't know how the Americans will enter/exit the country, nor if Putin wants to take them on some three hour drive to a dacha someplace else after receiving them at Moscow, so they're playing it safe.
>>2907252Nah you’re wrong because apparently Ukraine knew all about the CIA director’s unannounced trip to Moscow
>>2907252Nah, Ukrops are trying to emulate how Russians were doing "gestures of good will" before, but also not to look as if they are cucking out. SBU/GUR civil war happened over a guy who killed Ukraine's negotiators and his bodyguard, this shit, and Zelensky is afraid of getting killed - to the point of signing a law for getting a forever bodyguard squad for himself and his family even after he is no longer a president
Kushner and Witkoff have already landed in Moscow, did Russia stop droning Ukraine? Genuinely, I don’t know.
>Ukrainian mid-to-long-range drone units largely adhered to the ceasefire order, which Ukrainian media claimed was proposed by the Ukrainian side
<Russia rejected the ceasefire deal almost immediately, and carried out their pre-planned ballistic missile strikes on the Kamianske Metallurgical Plant in Dnipropetrovsk Oblast, and Geran-2/4 drone strikes on targets across various other regions.
Well there’s our answer from AMK Mapping.
>Kremlin Spokesperson Peskov stated that Putin has ordered a 3-day halt to all strikes on Kyiv, starting midnight tonight, to allow for the visit of (de facto) U.S. envoy to Putin Steve Witkoff and U.S. Special Envoy for Peace Jared Kushner to the city.
Oh no no no spirit of ancuckorage all over again!
>>2907336imagine the smell (of garlic)
>>2907336straight up hang them, cucktin could never
>>2907316Finally you started getting why everyone calls cucktin a gullible cuck…it might take you another year or two but you will also get how inept Russian military controlled by neoliberals is
>>2907417Being facetious, dippy
>>2907496
Yeesh
>>2907692You should consider that marx was correct on the political economy and on the dynamics of capitalism.
To answer your substantive questions
- Since the end of starlink for Russia Ukraine has enjoyed a few successes but they were temporary and now being reversed. Ukraine's attempts to bring pressure through deep strikes on civilian targets (Zelensky's 40 day campaign) has resulted in significantly greater retaliation. Fighting on the ground continues to be quite bad for ukraine and the fortress belt of the donbas is now in question.
- Russia and Ukraine are both taking on the order of 30k injured or killed per month (with very large error bars).
- Yes the western discourse on ukraime continues to be bloodthirsty sadism and blind moralistic "support muh democracy" nonsense even as they turn a blind eye to (or tacitly encourage) brutal conscription tactics against ukrainians who dont want to fight for a doomed cause for a shit neolib state. Russians for what its worth are still free to flee the war.
>>2907692Due to Ukrainian drone bombings, Russia has been turned from certain oil and gas product exporter to importer.
The front hasn't moved an inch for the last year and a half yet there are tens of thousands of Russian casualties every month.
Nothing significant has happened for Ukraine except maybe Iran. With Iran war, there are less patriot for Ukraine and Russia might be able to hit something here and there, with however minimal effect.
Pro Ukrainian posters keep being high spirited and a bit smug knowing Putin managed to indeed help build Ukraine as a nation.
>>2907692>iv. Are the pro-ukrainian crowd still as stupid as ever or even worse?About the same. From day one to today it’s just about trying to present the conflict as funny for them, the only difference is it’s far less plausible that people in Ukraine are actually laughing with them.
And of course they would try to portray the conflict as funny. How many of these pro-Ukrainians were all “lol punch a Nazi!” back in 2015? How many ITT watched breadtubers chronicling all the fascist groups the CIA has successfully employed all over the globe and shook their fists at their laptops that nothing ever seems to stop them?
Now, we’re finally witnessing Nazis being punched and the CIA actually experiencing appreciable opposition to installing a fascist regime. But oh no, to suggest this is a good thing risks getting side eyes at the dinner table from friends and family, because it’s Russia who has finally made punching Nazis their policy.
So what is to be done? Well obviously puss out instantly, agree with the MSM herd that perhaps being a Nazi isn’t the worst thing in the world and doesn’t always warrant a punch after all. Then out of shame spend years trying to reconcile being a “leftist” running apologia for Nazi salutes, fail, and do the standard rightoid thing of thinking that performatively laughing proves the entire situation isn’t a big deal for yourself and that’s why you don’t need to be consistent with yourself, which has never convinced anyone ever.
And ultimately, the reason why anons like Ushanka and IntBrig no longer post ITT is surely because they also figured out that pro-Ukrainians “anti-campists” have already forgiven themselves for pussing out.
White people of both Ukraine and Russia should stop killing each other and instead work together to wipe out Turkey
>>2906712But it isn't as tightly enforced or universally taboo like drugs. Karaoke bars and massage parlors are usually just fronts for prostitution. The former also seems to be exclusively controlled by gangs.
>>2907799>Now, we’re finally witnessing Nazis being punched???? But you're always the one going on about how they shouldn't be targeted and should be left alone.
>>2907932Bombing children isn’t that, spurdo.
>>2907959The Soviets didn't agonize over shooting at the Hitler Youth.
>>2907960Yet here you are crying every time one of your precious Nazis gets blown up
>>2907960We’ve been over this already you forgetful retard
So explain this to me. Is it that Russia CANT mobilizie and escalate enough to rapidly achieve their objectives? Or they can and simply choose to fight in the slow paced high casualty way, including losing a lot of infrastructure at home from Ukr attacks, because that's the better strategy compared to Blitzkrieg?
Like is the current way Russia is fighting the optimal way according to them, or they have been weakened so much or are so afraid of escalation they can't fight any other way?
>>2907965I've been banned in the past for asking for Kiev to get nuked or at least the parliament and Zelensky's house and Nazi funerals to get targeted, either because champ himself is a mod and hates being BTFO in arguments or he has a mod friend in his pocket.
Case in point:
>>2907966He has no argument against me simply because he is incapable of admitting that he doesn't actually want to kill Nazis by hitting their funerals and award ceremonies. He uses the "think of the women and children" bullshit as an excuse to dodge the obvious question of why if Russia is waging an antifascist war, that fascist meeting places should not be targeted. It doesn't have to be funerals it could also be award ceremonies or when they do one of their shitty torchlight marches on the streets.
He LARPs as an anti-fascist but every time real anti fascists like myself drop by the thread we out him as a faker since he is always the first to weep over poor Banderites dying. And then he does ridiculous shit like repost tiktoks of ukrainian schoolchildren assembling drones. Well if hitting a school is then justified due to drone production then why isn't hitting a Nazi funeral?
This is why no one bothers posting in this thread anymore it's always champ making retarded/hypocritical arguments and pissing off everyone until they don't want to deal with his bullshit anymore. He probably gets paid by the post by Cucktin's friends I can't imagine anyone willing to do that for free.
>>2907856t. zioshit
Turkiye is a pain in the ass though given their ambitions however so is Erez Israel
>>2907989>I've been banned in the past for asking for Kiev to get nukedThat’s not the full story is it? You said nuking Kiev and Lvov would have saved lives
by now and it wouldn’t have. You got banned for being a concern troll.
>He has no argumentThere’s no point having the same argument over and over when you’re just going to pretend to forget again.
It’s disingenuous to equate bombing/nuking civilians with de-nazifying Ukraine. Especially when you suggest that’s what Stalin would have done, despite the existence of the DDR being a very obvious flaw in that claim.
>>2907496
what is this supposed to show? also not spoilered
Also at what point was any of that crying about being banned and my apparent Kremlin-paid salary was an argument relevant to
>>2907799You’re a fucking crybaby, no one likes you and if we’re getting into conspiracies then I think you’re thrillpill’s fursona since he fucked up and used the wrong flag with his name that just coincidentally happed to be spurdo.
>>2903073>I've been banned in the past for asking for Kiev to get nuked Good
>>2907772Just straight up lying
>>2907998>You said nuking Kiev and Lvov would have saved lives by nowYes. Russian soldier lives. Just like how America nuking Japan saved American soldier lives. That's the point of war. Protecting your soldiers. There is nothing "concern troll" about this statement it's merely a statement of fact.
>It’s disingenuous to equate bombing/nuking civilians with de-nazifying Ukraine. Especially when you suggest that’s what Stalin would have done, despite the existence of the DDR being a very obvious flaw in that claim.Was the DDR created before or after the Soviets and Allied forces had leveled Germany to the ground? You call me disingenuous but you constantly lie and then go on to post retarded shit arguments like pretending the DDR was formed out of Stalin banning all Soviet air strikes on German "civilian" targets.
>>2908001On the contrary it's you crying every single day in this fucking thread over Ukraine not surrendering yet and then getting mad at everyone pointing out everything the Russian government or military is doing wrong, as if your personal honor is on the line as soon as either institution get criticized. Notice how no one in this thread gives a single fuck about Zelensky or the Ukrainian government being criticized for being reactionary but as soon as it's Russia suddenly they Cucktin is holy pure and can never be questioned. It's disingenuous and everyone sees through you because you are so hopped up on gargling Cucktin's dick that if anything you just make all Russian supporters look retarded.
Just to set the record straight, because despite trying to minimize my time in /ukr/ I have still noticed this glaring double standard:
THINGS CHAMP HAS AVOIDED GETTING BANNED OVER ON THIS OSTENSIBLY "LEFTIST" FORUM
<Defending Cucktin banning nationalization of privatized enterprises from perestroika
<Defending Cucktin arresting or detaining Russian Communists affiliated with the CPRF on the basis of made up legal technicalities
<Defending Dugin inviting outright fascists to St. Petersburg and hosting them
<Constant arguments to spare Nazi funerals or award ceremonies from being targeted by the Russian military, and then goalpost shifting to argue that such targeted strikes actually entail the mass loss of civilian life
<Posting tiktok videos of Ukrainian schoolchildren assembling drones, justifying Russian strikes on schools, and then turning on a dime to start trolling other people by accusing other people of being "Zionists" when Russia's military strategy is questioned
<Deliberate falseflag impersonation of other people
If I had done any of this crap I would have been banned 10x over already but champ gets away with all of it because he has a mod in his pocket. What a joke. Anyways enjoy your lone circlejerk champ every time I drop by I try to stay clear of the latest crap you're posting but congrats you successfully ragebaited me into replying back to you again.
>>2908009>Just like how America nuking Japan saved American soldier lives.Lmao an anti-fascist spitting out pro-American narratives.
>That's the point of war. Protecting your soldiers.No that’s the point of diplomacy, the decision to go to war is when diplomacy fails and there’s no other choice left than to risk the lives of your men.
>Was the DDR created before or after the Soviets and Allied forces had leveled Germany to the ground? You’re making the point that
everyone within a fascist state is a card-carrying fascist until killed with no innocents held hostage by the state, so you also need to explain why that stops being the case for the DDR being made up of civilians of former Nazi Germany? Because that’s quite a wide line between them
all being fascists deserving of a nuke if Stalin had one, to then all being capable of enjoying socialist fraternity with the USSR soon after the conflict concludes.
>On the contrary it's you crying every single day<No u! >:’^(
>Notice how no one in this thread gives a single fuck about Zelensky or the Ukrainian government being criticized for being reactionaryLmao what are you talking about? You should consider “dropping in” when thrillpill is claiming Ukraine’s Nazi problem is merely Russian propaganda and actually he has a lot of fun living there.
>you are so hopped up on gargling Cucktin's dickAgain with the homoeroticism lmao
Like I always say, my aim is to analyse the choices that Russia does or doesn’t make, because that’s what I find more interesting than trying to convince a thread on the internet that I’m a real tough guy and oh man if I had access to nukes man you would believe how fucking hardcore I’d be with them.
Fuck off you pathetic pansy, you were destined to punch a tear soaked pillow and not much else.
>>2908015Wow you are really delusional because I’ve done none of that
So as an epilogue to his edgy conspiracy-ridden crash out, I’d just point out that Spurdo demonstrates perfectly the self-forgiveness I’ve described. It’s not his fault that he’s found himself against those who punch Nazis for realsies, ackshually it’s the great man Putin’s fault for not nuking about 4 million civilians on day one! A real great man like Spurdo would have done that day one hypothetically and thus no choice but to oppose Z-gang literally.
>>2908000Russians gloriously advancing
fertilizing Ukrainian fields
>>2908024>punch Nazis for realsiesnsdap disbanded in 1945 which means nazis are 95+ years old, good luck punching them
>>2907811In my case it's because there's one mod that apparently have a personal beef with this flag.
It's fun that I get banned in an altercation with another user, and the person I know is a reactionary ends up posting reactionary shit.
See the meta thread. Fun stuff, eh.
>>2908093 (me)
Just in case, the ban was 4 days ago, and the ban was 3-days long.
>>2908093Lmao to be fair to Spurdo I don’t actually recall the last time I was banned due to this thread, perhaps someone on the mod team does enjoy my posts!
I’m kinda close to touching grass, simply because news about the conflict just isn’t discussed anymore (surprise surprise it’s as, short of nooking le lvovov, little is off the table for Russia now). It really has just become the ChampSoc thread most days, but only because there’s like three or four anons that I’ve really fucked off over the years by never buying into Ukraine’s hype and now in the absence of Ukrainian hype, they’ve really nothing else to say but how much I’ve indeed fucked them off over the years.
At some point you gotta accept the sunk cost in trying to keep the general on-topic/up to date. Spurdo going full tinhat about mods and rubles in my pocket being the reason why he is constantly fucking raging ITT, rather than simply Ukraine (and by extension NATO) has humiliated itself in the long-term more than Russia or any other country, is probably it.
>>2908144They are eating shit with Iran but not so much with Gaza, Syria, Lebanon, Venezuela and Ukraine
>>2908150>the West isn't eating shit in Ukraineok, retard
>>2908154Bro, Ukraine was part of Russia like forever, everyone laughed at Ukrainian identity, everyone thought Ukraine would collapse Afghanistan style, and yet here we are with Russians bogged down having lost everything west of Dnieper forever…
Congrats on your 12 trillions of coal lol
>>2908144>I feel no obligation to "correct the record" or "control the narrative".That’s not what’s really being done, anons complaining that criticisms of Russia/Putin “aren’t allowed” are making the same complaint rightoids are when decrying the death of free speech.
If they want to signal boost Ukraine’s self-hype ITT then they have every right to, but in a public forum they have to expect it to be challenged and thus far it appears to be rightly so. For how much they may cling on to “Kiev in three days” or some variant of that phrase, Pro-Ukrainian hype has provided dozens of similar lofty predictions about their imminent victory.
Like I wouldn’t presume to think so highly of myself that I’d agree with them that I’m the No. 1 killjoy on the internet. They’re just projecting their frustrations over constantly being taken for a ride on to me, because I’m probably the only voice calling them gullible fucks while “everyone” agrees it’s ogre for Russia with whatever the latest peremoga is.
Perhaps the most ironic factor for pro-Ukrainians is just how in a handful of years that went from opposing le dick-tator Pootin and “supporting democracy” to just asking
>Is Zelensky still leader of Ukraine?
and “winning” revolves around the answer being Yes no matter the cost. Surely it has to make anyone feel a little bit sick to see the contrast between civilians being kidnapped off the street with publicity shots of Zelensky smiling warmly with his NATO financiers suggesting that indeed we can expect Zelensky to be leader indefinitely?
>>2908119I'll be posting more news tomorrow. Apparently doing commentary, like I do, per each news post I do it's
talking to myself, and not a two-step-ahead mechanism to avoid a violation of rule 11, a just-in-case decision.
>>2908008Advocating for and downplaying the effects of nuclear war or the risks of nuclear escalation should be bannable.
Well, apparently the cdu in germany lost to the afd.
and that's the general european news these hours:
>"German Chancellor Merz supported Ukraine, but it wasn't enough to win the election," said Lithuanian President Nausėda, commenting on the voting results in Saxony-Anhalt.>picrel>>2909082You get +1 mobilization ticket for each photography of empty shells.
>n Poland, 180 ethnically motivated crimes against Ukrainians were recorded in the first half of 2026—a 30% increase from the previous year.
>This was reported by Politico, citing Polish police data.
>The prosecutor's office reports that more than 80% of hate crime cases brought to court from February to June involved Ukrainians.
>Meanwhile, the share of Poles with a positive attitude toward Ukrainians decreased from 51% in 2023 to 29% in January 2026.
The feud keeps on rolling, and growing.
>The Wall Street Journal: Ukraine is considering legalizing the porn industry to supplement its military budget.
This won't backfire into a massive network of child and women trafficking.
>Ukraine is unlikely to obtain the necessary number of Patriot missiles to protect against attacks this winter, Sergey Beskrestnov, adviser to the Ukrainian president on defense technology, told The Guardian.
>According to NASA FIRMS data, the number of fires in the Kiev region in August 2026 was ten times higher than the previous year.
>The Ukrainian government should have warned Ukrainian businesses about the planned campaign of attacks against Wildberries and other Russian online marketplaces, giving them time to prepare for retaliatory actions.
>"Without businesses, there will be no taxes, which, among other things, are used to produce the drones that are attacking Wildberries," Davidenko concludes.
Chief Editor of the Ukranian Forbes posted the editorial analysis in facebook, then he deleted it. The screenshots, unlike the ukrainian warehouses, survived.
>>29090896 tens of eggs, or 6 pieces or kgs of shown goods per customer at most
>>2905725Quick: what's more reactionary:
>a state fully controlled by private bourgeoisieor
>a state with strategic state owned enterprises. >>2909102Neither? Or did you forget what Marx wrote about states and class dictatorship?? Either way Ukraine also has state owned enterprises. (Ukrenergo, Energoatom, Privatbank, Ukrainian Railways, etc.)
>>2908154Other than energy prices (which are hitting the global south too) how is the west eating shit in Ukraine? Are western refineries being bombed? Are Amazon warehouses being struck by Geraniums? How many NATO soldiers have died in Ukraine? Is the airspace above the Baltics and Poland closed regularly? Are the RAF regularly sinking western ships and forcing port closures?
>>2909192>how is the west eating shit in Ukraine?Well…
>Their ambitions to integrate Ukraine into NATO is a bust>The narrative went from merely giving Ukraine shit from the NATO scrapyard to funding Kiev by any means necessary>Funding Ukraine has to depend on promising to break international law and essentially steal money from Russia which will destroy confidence in European banks if actually done>If one of Europe’s goals was getting themselves even more favourable energy prices after sanctions collapsing the Russian economy, then that’s backfired wildly>All currently standing Lib parties have associated themselves with Ukraine since 2022 at least, economic uncertainty has made that now a black mark since all anyone hears out of Ukraine now is GIVAS!>Ukraine munched through much of NATO’s anti-air missiles which surely explains why Iran is able to hit US bases with unsophisticated drones>An unbelievable amount of precedent has been provided by Ukraine for just doing away with the concept of “war crimes” all together>The recklessness of NATO enabling and encouraging strikes that kill Russian civilians on Russian soil is the final straw for “le defensive pact”>Once the conflict ends and the embargo on information is lifted, Michael Moore-like documentaries are likely to make this the most unpopular conflict in western history, there is just too much about Ukraine’s lawlessness to ignoreThe problem with with your take is that Ukraine was a strategic choice for NATO, it’s not going to be measured by metrics like “erm how many NATO troops died?” when it’s a conflict they didn’t show up for in person. It’s going to be judged by whether the conflict improved NATO’s strategic position in the world or if it harmed it, and that’s not something that will solely be judged through the lens of NATO vs Russia, but also NATO vs China and NATO’s apparent desire to expand throughout Asia.
>>2909219>>Their ambitions to integrate Ukraine into NATO is a bustbefore the conflict no one wanted ukraine in nato: neither did nato members nor did ukrainians themselves
if anything ambition to join nato was created as a result of russian actions
>>The narrativestopped reading right here
>>If one of Europe’s goals was getting themselves even more favourable energy prices after sanctions collapsing the Russian economy, then that’s backfired wildlyit wasn't. we don't need russia for energy or anything else for that matter. it's russia that needs us else it gets a single trading partner in china and uneven treaties as a result (which i for one am perfectly fine with)
>>Once the conflict ends and the embargo on information is lifted, Michael Moore-like documentaries are likely to make this the most unpopular conflict in western history, there is just too much about Ukraine’s lawlessness to ignorezigger propaganda's been unsuccessfully trying to do this for years now. almost everyone and anyone already knows ukraine is corrupt, russia is even more corrupt and dnr/lnr bantustans are the most corrupt. it comes with the turf. doersn't change the fact that siding with ukraine defending itself from an invasion is the right thing to do.
And exactly how many dragged out and essentially unresolved conflicts does the West want this century?
>Left Afghanistan after 20 years, falling immediately back into Al Qaeda control
>Leaving Iraq saw the rise of ISIS and other Islamist groups
>Libya was basically the start of mass migration to Europe
>Deposing Assad took years, failed to find a coalition for direct action and “victory” means leaders both Western, Southern and Eastern all now need to shake hands with someone who cut off heads
>North Korea sees military action for the first time since the 1950s against western-trained troops and demonstrates contrary to popular narrative for 70 years, they’ve got functioning missile systems and competent soldiers.
>Africa is a whole list of lesser known conflicts the West are involved in and seemingly failing to enforce their influence
Trying to jump the Cold War’s final boss and not jumping high enough to win but enough to endanger world peace may very well prove to be more damaging to NATO’s strategic position in the 21st century than losing face with the Minsk Agreements.
>>2909233>before the conflict no one wanted ukraine in nato<"these countries (Ukraine & Georgia) will become members of NATO" - NATO Summit 2008Bait.
>>2909235I wouldn’t be so dismissive of The Narrative given the foundations of NATO is just narrative.
Prior to this conflict, NATO was “successfully” threatening Russia out of military action against its increasingly hostile neighbours. Now it has to be a cope where all that’s actually important is that no NATO troops were harmed in the destruction of Ukraine.
>>2909192Authoritarian liberal states, neoliberal states share the same core principles of the italian fascist state.
When ᴉuᴉlossnW argued in the
Il primo discorso alla Camera https://www.adamoli.org/benito-ᴉuᴉlossnW/pag0145-20.htm that the thee State is Briareus, and ninety-five of its hundred arms must be amputated. What survives: police, courts, army, foreign policy and what goes: everything else; it sets what you can see is one programme, two methods.
Even if later on ᴉuᴉlossnW nationalized the IRI and INI, tactical move, the doctrine of serving the private interests as in neoliberalism, was preserved:
January 1933. Italy's three great universal banks are collapsing under industrial loans they cannot carry. IRI is created to absorb their holdings. Private losses land on the Treasury, and Beneduce's formula pairs state ownership with private minority shareholders and private management, explicitly designed not to nationalize.
In fact, since you asked about Marx:
>Engels, Anti-Dühring, Notes:>"Certainly, if the taking over by the state of the tobacco industry is socialistic, then Napoleon and Metternich must be numbered among the founders of socialism."And this is reinforced by the nature of a state, the fascist state where labor rights were dismantled and reduced to the interests of the state. Like the neoliberal states do:
Unions dissolved. Strikes criminalised. Bargaining replaced by corporations directed from above. Real wages falling through the period while top income shares rose.. Across the liberal phase and the statist phase alike, one policy never reverses: the destruction of labour's capacity to make a claim.
So the core principle in both ways of state is one programme, two methods. For both Von Misses, Carl Schmitt, Their formula, free economy, strong state is a justification for the most atrocious dictatorships of the time, the nazi and the fascist regimes.
Streeck states the structure exactly: strong as protector of the market against redistributive claims, to the point of deploying public power to suppress them and weak toward the market as the site of autonomous profit-seeking.
Or simply: Strong against the people, weak before capital, the shared architecture.
When I ask you:
>what's more reactionary.I know the answer already. No, Russia is not socialist for having a very effective, very large (30% to 50%) State Owned Enterprises, as I quoted Engels, but the state runs away from a fascist architecture,a more reactionary state, reflected in neoliberalism as ukrainian does.
You named a handful of industries:
>Ukrenergo, Energoatom, Privatbank, Ukrainian Railwaysbut they insignificantly provide to the GDP of ukraine, for one.
second, they are under continuous threat of being privatized, like ukrenergo. and the ones that ukraine has re-nationalized after 1990, are, like in ᴉuᴉlossnW's case where the economic interest was the underlaying reason, a tactical nationalization, to then privatize them again.
Thus the answer, in its economical structure, as Marx once quote:
>Right can never be higher than the economic structure of society and its cultural development conditioned therebyis obvious.
But I know you will don't acknowledge anything said, and you will run to defend the worst of the two states.
>>2909263>opinion pollslol, lmao even.
That’s not how the open door works for NATO, despite the implication of that phrasing.
>>2908934This looks like a happy ride.
I wonder, how long can a defensive line hold with people as motivated as these.
>>2909266anyone ever admitted against their own will or despite the protest of other members?
But obviously the key thing to remember here is that if Russia did indeed capture Kiev in three days or a deal was struck in Istanbul or even if Ukraine just abided by Minsk, NAFOids would just be saying
>lol nice shithole you’re allied with
That was always the alternative for NATO here, they actually didn’t need to thrust a corrupt, fascist, fratricidal society into the limelight and present it as a model of all that is good and superior about Western Democracy that was worth spending billions on and risking nuclear war for.
>>2909273Depends if you count the ones that didn't ask their population at all and the government unilaterally decided to join
>>2909272Apparently Ukraine has some really forward thinking ideas on how to get them motivated.
>Move! Or I’ll shoot you anyway!Truly a symbol of how far European society as progressed.
>>2909282>NATO is democratic despite not a single membership being the direct result of a referendum on membership<Keep saying “>the population”Like most libs you love the word democracy but have contempt for its meaning
>>2909288that's the cornerstone of elective democracy. i get how the concept might seem foreign and abrasive but discrediting it reeks of third worldism. rise above, buddy.
>>2909322>third worldism Where the fuck did that come from lmao
>that's the cornerstone of elective democracy.That’s the swindle with bourgeois liberal democracy, you get asked to vote on minor amendments to taxes and spending, but in doing so you provide a mandate to hand over billions to another country while putting yourself at risk of nuclear war.
>>2909332>risk of nuclear wardyrbi?
>>2909322elective democracy is not actually democracy you retard. only sortition is. read Plato.
>>2909336Yes. At this point NATO has moved from “supporting” Ukraine to outright trying to win the conflict for them. It’s entirely arbitrary that people think nuclear war only becomes a possibility when NATO troops are actually (openly) fighting in Ukraine, whereas the reality is the only reason we’re not all dead is because Russia is winning and therefore aren’t going to destroy the entire world because that’d be a bit anticlimactic.
>>2909219>The narrative Irrelevant (Said "narrative" also had Russia run out of ammo within 2 weeks and Russia ColLapSing for years now) . I'm talking about material consequences, other than energy prices which have already been mentioned.
>Ukraine munched through much of NATO’s anti-air missiles which surely explains why Iran is able to hit US bases with unsophisticated dronesIran is to blame for this not Ukraine. They burned through more anti-air missiles within days than were used in Ukraine during the previous 4 years.
>It’s going to be judged by whether the conflict improved NATO’s strategic position in the world or if it harmed itVenezuela, Syria, Lebanon, Gaza, Nagorno-Karabakh (and Armenia on track to join the EU and freezing/suspending CSTO membership), Cuba liberalization, Russian firms losing their dominant position in central Asia, etc. Seems to me in hindsight it's Moscow who got bogged down, preventing them from backing the rest of the "Axis of multipolar resistance" and preserving their own "sphere of influence".
>>2909260What I was referring to FARCanon is that states do not exist above the classes (i.e. ᴉuᴉlossnW fash thought). So "private" vs "state owned" tells you very little about how "reactionary" (or alternatively 'fash') a state is.
>insignificantly provideUkrainian railways is "the world's sixth largest rail passenger transporter and world's seventh largest freight transporter." (as per wikipedia). They're not insignificant at all, neither are the enterprises providing electricity for the entire country, or much of its banking services. Without them much of the Ukrainian economy would grind to a halt overnight.
>Authoritarian liberal states, neoliberal states share the same core principles of the italian fascist state.What does this mean? Are there non-authoritarian liberal states?
As to the rest; I'm aware of the history of Fascist Italy. But
some of theses things you refer to are also shared by the modern Russian state; Wildberries recently is a good example of "Private losses land on the Treasury". Almost half of gazprom is privately owned. Etc. Neither Ukraine or Russia afaik have actual bourg as part of the national government nowadays. The only exception to this (that I know of) having been Poroshenko recently.
>Like the neoliberal states do: Unions dissolved. Strikes criminalised. Bargaining replaced by corporations directed from above. Real wages falling through the period while top income shares rose..You mean like modern Russia? Unauthorized/wildcat strikes were banned during Putin's first presidency. The FPNR has close ties to United Russia. There's been recent crackdown seeing Communist party candidates barred from running for the Duma elections. Contacts with some global trade unions have been prohibited. Child labor laws have been liberalized. About the only improvement here has been real wages since 2022, partially as a result of the labor exodus. After a stagnation from 2014-2022 (which saw real wages drop below the 2013 figure). You can make an argument for Ukraine still being more reactionary, but that isn't down to how many enterprises are state owned or privately owned. Unless you want to argue Saudi Arabia is less reactionary than Russia, because the first has a higher percentage of workers employed in state firms - on top of a higher percentage of state owned firms as percentage of GDP - than the latter.
>But I know you will don't acknowledge anything said, and you will run to defend the worst of the two states.Did you acknowledge the other stuff I wrote?
>>2909359>material consequencesYou’ve listed some recent events like they’re predicated by the conflict in Ukraine, but they’re not.
Do you really think that’s a good counter-argument to NATO harming its strategic position by blowing all this money, weaponry, energy security and diplomatic standing with much of the world on Ukraine? That if Russia just let NATO expand into Ukraine without a fight, somehow Venezuela, Gaza, Cuba, etc wouldn’t have happened despite all being projects decades in the making?
>>2909369>diplomatic standing with much of the worldwho in particular do you have in mind?
>>2909372Well, China for one.
>>2909369Ukraine is an own goal. Would Ukro far rightoids have behaved any different than they have in any other country (or the way they behaved in our world)? That is being grifting thieving incompetents or literal fascist bandits who eventually turn voters against themselves?
Imagine a world where the Crimea referendum and the Donbas war never happened. There are no "invaders" to rally around the flag for, so all the Nazi stuff happens in a vacuum. Leaving two options:
Either they (Kremlin) wait a year for far rightoids to (inevitably) fuck up and discredit themselves and lose the next elections, then make a better deal (the one Yanukovych wanted) with their successors. Similar to what had already happened under Yushchenko. Or #2 they issue an ultimatum stating that either the fash shit ends (language laws, bandera statues, nazi symbolism) or they're getting clapped like Iraq in 2004 and any western intervention will lead to energy being cut off (which was a much scarier prospect back then on top of then euro leaders wanting good relations with Russia).
Instead they managed to fuck it all up. By not going all in back in 2014, then waiting till 2022 (whilst letting an anti-Russian Ukraine reform and arm itself), then again not going all in. And now they're bogged down. Directly affecting their ability to back international allies.
>NATO harming its strategic position by blowing all this money, weaponry, energy security and diplomatic standing with much of the world on Ukraine?Where? What has NATO lost as a result of Ukraine? Except for old military gear and 600 patriot missiles? Afghanistan precedes the war so you can't point at that. Meanwhile Gaza, Cuba, Venezuela, Syria, second Nagorno-Karabakh war, Iran, and so on all happened afterwards.
>>2909238Anons also conveniently avoiding this post.
It’s only arrogance to think so many unresolved conflicts can have no effect on NATO’s strategic position, let alone thinking starting more conflicts and acting even more aggressively means ackshually NATO is stronger strategically than ever.
>>2909380>Imagine a world where the Crimea referendum and the Donbas war never happened.This depends on Nuland not showing up in Kiev with cookies and instructions for who’s going to be taking what positions in the new government.
>Where? What has NATO lost as a result of Ukraine? Taking it back to 2008, it wasn’t just Ukraine that was announced as a future NATO member, so was Georgia. How is that going?
>Afghanistan precedes the war so you can't point at that. Meanwhile Gaza, Cuba, Venezuela, Syria, second Nagorno-Karabakh war, Iran, and so on all happened afterwards.Genuinely a baffling statement. Cuba started after 2022 did it? So did Gaza?
>>2909382>>2909238>Saddam gone>Assad gone>Qaddafi gone>Sahel going down the shitter due to resurgent ISISThe only unequivocal "win" is Afghanistan, and it's reactionaries beating westoids which isn't much to cheer on.
>>2909384>This depends on NulandDoes it? Let's say everything stays the same. Nuland shows up. Maidan. Etc. But instead of a war in the east and Crimea, there is no war. The Bandera fan club is voted out after proving they're typical 'corrupt' infighting rightoid tards. And then (like Yushchenko before them) they make a better deal with the successors. Alternatively, they flatten the regime for good in 2015.
>Taking it back to 2008, it wasn’t just Ukraine that was announced as a future NATO member, so was Georgia. How is that going?Still looking to join. But the Georgia L (on part of NATO) precedes 2014, and it was played a lot better than Ukraine too.
> Cuba started after 2022 did it? So did Gaza?No. But much of Gaza looking like atomic bombs were dropped on it happened after 2022. And accelerated liberalization (and energy crisis) in Cuba is also a post-2022 thing.
>>2909387Child killing nafo shiller
>>2909387>Saddam gone>Assad gone>Qaddafi goneBasic bitch interpretation of strategic objectives.
>Does it? Let's say everything stays the same.No let’s not because you can invent alternative histories where the galactic federation of intelligence species comes to Earth and tells Nuland to knock it off because a vote of 15 Gagalgamecks to only 5 Anj’aarsians ruled in favour of Russia as most the intelligent people on Earth.
>Wot if no war tho?Can only be limited to removing whatever the cause of the conflict was, and for Ukraine it’s mass support for joining the EU, little support for joining NATO and that being a problem for both organisations which needed to be resolved via boosting Banderism to political power.
>But much of Gaza looking like atomic bombs were dropped on it happened after 2022.So what’s the claim you’re making? That a Ukraine in NATO would have prevented this? Not that its newest member would be shipping its own production missiles to Israel?
>Still looking to join.Right but as NATO is advertised, an open door for sovereign democracies. Which is precisely not what NATO wants and tried to coup the government but failed this time.
>>2909238>>Left Afghanistan after 20 years, falling immediately back into Al Qaeda control The Taliban is not Al Qaeda. Also Afghanistan is effectively a failed state: 3.7 million children in Afghanistan are starving. Afghanistan cannot take care of itself let alone do anything to hurt American overseas.
>Leaving Iraq saw the rise of ISIS and other Islamist groupsWhich is good for the West.
>Libya was basically the start of mass migration to EuropeSo?
>>Deposing Assad took years, failed to find a coalition for direct action and “victory” means leaders both Western, Southern and Eastern all now need to shake hands with someone who cut off headsOh no, they need to shake hands with someone who cuts off heads. The dignity.
>North Korea sees military action for the first time since the 1950s against western-trained troops and demonstrates contrary to popular narrative for 70 years, they’ve got functioning missile systems and competent soldiers.Oh no not the popular narrative.
>Africa is a whole list of lesser known conflicts the West are involved in and seemingly failing to enforce their influenceBy lesser known I assume you mean you don't know them and that is why you won't mention them.
>And exactly how many dragged out and essentially unresolved conflicts does the West want this century? I fail to see a point. There are always unresolved conflicts. Like you are trying to make the fact that there isn't world peace into a point against the West, when there was never world peace before. There have always been unresolved conflicts. This is really reaching.
>Trying to jump the Cold War’s final boss and not jumping high enough to win but enough to endanger world peace may very well prove to be more damaging to NATO’s strategic position in the 21st century than losing face with the Minsk Agreements.Nah you haven't shown that. The war in Ukraine has gotten more countries to join NATO, like Finland in 2023.
The West is in decline in a lot of ways but most of the reasons are domestic. There is no evidence the slow decline of the West has much of anything to do with Putin's misadventures. You certainly haven't shown that.
>>2909419>Oh no not the popular narrative. It’s really funny how many pearls are being clutched over the word “narrative” in a general about Ukraine.
The rest of your post can be summarised as
>Yeah? We blew into town, fucked everyone up and left. Problem?before agreeing that the West is suffering decline, but it’s not because of being in a state of perpetual war for a quarter century blowing billions on high tech weapons in the third world where nothing ever got resolved and required constant policing of whatever spoils those wars ought to have provided.
>>2909233>doersn't change the fact that siding with ukraine defending itself from an invasion is the right thing to do.spooky, r/neoliberal is the place you belong
Also don’t anons feel a little bit pathetic flaunting the deposing of various third world leaders as evidence of the West’s strength, while arguing the point that the Ukraine project failing to depose Putin doesn’t count because Russia isn’t omnipresent?
>we deposed Assad after more than a decade of trying, who of the Western-aligned third world has Russia deposed?
Is the “what colour is your Bugatti?” of geopolitics
>>2909431>Also don’t anons feel a little bit pathetic flaunting the deposing of various third world leaders as evidence of the West’s strength, while arguing the point that the Ukraine project failing to depose Putin doesn’t count because Russia isn’t omnipresent?Unfortunately I am not even sure that the Ukraine project won't overthrow Putin since its not over yet.
>>2909457>since its not over yet.Uh huh
No let’s not get too cocky, I’m sure Ukraine can still resolve
>chronic corruption
>infighting between security forces
>an almost completely undefended capital from air strikes
>horrific morale amongst troops
>bombed out industry
>wrecked national logistics
>blockaded naval ports
>dwindling reserves of men to conscript leading to female conscription being on the table
>an economy that’s measured in whatever financial aid they received that week
and turn this conflict around yet, so long as Zelensky remains the leader rather than some dead bitch like Saddam, then it’s all to play for.
>>2909486Meanwhile Russia is full employment, finding unemployed people jobs at the front
>>2909479it will be genuinely crazy if ukraine starts conscripting women.
if that happened i honestly wouldnt be suprised if there was a schism in western libs between those who support ukraine/nato unconditionally in their fight against putler, and the more feminist members who think "i support ukraine but conscripting women is too far"
>>2909590>Ukraine uber alles!!1>unless it's women who have to die…To be honest, I don't think it would be a dealbreaker for feminist natoids. They like/tolerate Israel, afterall
>>2909590>what part of "last ukrainian" did you not understandonce russia is faced with ukrainian girl power its over for putler
>>2909479How has russia still not won? Every time I hear about the ukranians its like they are about to completely collapse
>>2909628Ukraine has collapsed. Russia is accomplishing their military objectives and Ukraine has to rely on Western aid to mount any resistance.
>>2909091hohols are hohols where-ever they go.
>>2909445Alright, I was very tired when I wrote this post, so I'm remaking it, then erasing it:
>>2909359>is that states do not exist above the classes>therefore>very little about how "reactionary" >(or alternatively 'fash') a state is. I see.
So nazi germany, fascist italy weren't reactionary states.
How close was for nazi germany and fascist italy to achieving communism?
:^)
>Ukrainian railways is "the world's sixth largest rail passenger transporter and woare you being dense on purpose? contribution to the GDP.
Even if you want to run that metric to exempt ukraine of something, Russia is larger than ukraine in terms of net people transit, total length of tracks built for the metro and railroads, and investment in transportation $ per capita, since always.
>What does this mean? Are there non-authoritarian liberal states?I can guarantee you that people like videla in argentina was very different from say AMLO in Mexico.
>But some of theses things you refer to are also shared by the modern Russian stateNot in that extend, and more focused in the economic structure, than in Russia. You read, but your illiteracy makes it impossible for you to find the point in the previous text.
>"Private losses land on the Treasury"Wildberries asked credits to the state banks, they can't pay them, it's loss in the Russian treasury. That's very different from what's behind the state You are taking an accounting issue and jump into the largest stretched argument.
What's this insane cherrypicking, when I laid out the foundational argument 1 post before:
Russian re-nationalization: permanent, 30 to 50% of contribution of the GDP
Ukrainian privatization: extensive, puts public state at 10% of the GDP at best, some renationalizations are tactical: no plan to leave them public.
Then the link between neoliberalism and fascism is fucking clear as sun.
>You mean like modern Russia?Nor strikes nor unions are banned in Russia. That's a lie, and you know it. But again, if you want to set up that comparison. Where do you think ukraine stands? But when a state sets in its sight, like ukraine does, profits over people, it doesn't matter how the state operates, you are not in the common interest of the state, like fascists state, like neoliberal states. That's the sole point, and you are missing it.
Have to remind myself this shitshow is still going on. Like a smoker trying to quit. Utter faggy bullshit. Cucktinism and Zelencuckism should be mortal sins.
>>2909683>:^) Dunno what point you're trying to make. So I'll reiterate. "State ownership" says nothing about about reactionary a state is, because states do not exist above the classes. Unless you wanna go full ᴉuᴉlossnW and pretend they can be.
>are you being dense on purpose? contribution to the GDP.Didn't understand the point I'm making then. The industries I listed are close to the economic base. Aka the
commanding heights of the economy making other economic activity possible.
>Then the link between neoliberalism and fascism is fucking clear as sun.Do you think Saudi Arabia is less reactionary than Russia?
>That's the sole point, and you are missing it.No I get it. You want judge how reactionary a state is by examining "state" vs "private" ownership ignoring the part where this has never been a meaningful distinction because states are not class-neutral. I gave examples of "reactionary" policies in Russia beyond outright banning unions (which hasn't been done in Ukraine) and strikes. You can argue Ukraine is still more "reactionary" but this has nothing to do with "private" vs "public" ownership.
tl;dr: your argument is (Italian) fascist
>>2909628Because it’s “le drone war” and that’s a war NATO thinks it can still win. People getting kidnapped off the streets and sent to the front in handcuffs is merely a fig leaf over the fact
>Drones are manufactured by NATO>Drones are paid for by NATO>Targets are selected by NATO>Drones are guided by NATO>Drones fly through NATO airspaceSo it’s only still a proxy war by virtue of intentionally slaughtering Ukrainians concurrently with le drone war
Interimperialist conflict
If the translation is correct, there’s a video of a radio interview with Zelensky where he has essentially rejected the negotiations this recent US visit to Moscow and Kiev was supposed to arrange.
Not a big surprise there, almost certainly Russia has rejected them anyway and the terms offered by the US continues to get worse for Ukraine each time. But Zelensky claiming the tactic of telling Ukraine to “sit and listen” is unacceptable and stresses the need for “equality” is pretty ballsy considering their ever increasing appetite for Givas and the apparently dwindling amount of money that manages to avoid being stolen.
>>2909732>"State ownership"Read carefully, then:
>>2909260 (You)
>Didn't understand the point I'm making thenYour point is cherrypicking. Since point 1 I laid the argument as a general state of the state. In fact, I literally mentioned: >Italy's three great universal banks are collapsing under industrial loans they cannot carry. IRI is created to absorb their holdings. Private losses land on the Treasury, and Beneduce's formula pairs state ownership with private minority shareholders and private management, explicitly designed not to nationalize.
Do you understand this?
In neoliberal cesspools, nationalize industries are continuously threatened of privatization, and their public ownership state is merely tactical, like it's expected in fascist states.
>ignoring the part where this has never been a meaningful distinction because states are not class-neutral.Not because you don't know about these analyses it doesn't mean they don't exist. My argument carries significant social studies behind.
Carl Schmitt described "Authoritarian liberalism" in 1933 (in favor of such a state), joins the NSDAP later. You can read
Scheuerman "The unholy alliance of Carl Schmitt and Friedrich Hayek", where Hayek was one of the founders of Neoliberalism, that with Milton Friedman. Then
Werner Bonefeld establishes in Critical Sociology that the founding ordoliberals shared Schmitt's arguments, he identified Weimar's democratic character as the root cause of the crisis, and held that mass democracy is tyrannical in its consequences. Then
Wolfgang Streeck describes neoliberalism, it must be strong as protector of the market from redistributive claims, to the point of deploying public power to suppress them, weak toward the market itself as the site of autonomous profit-seeking. And finally some
Richard G. Wilkinson to complement the devastating effects of neoliberalism.
You wanna discredit the argument with a strawman saying it's based on thin air?
See, you came here… dunno, 6 months now? various months ago. You came here accusing the pro-Russian side of being vibes-and-feels, "Russian pesudo nationalists", with a full strawman argument.
Now that I am laying a very deep theoretical argument in which each element has its own historical, sociological, and economical base behind, your answer is to say it's based on nothing. Instead of, of course, asking for source materials.
Problem is, you don't know who you are talking to. I eat a book a week since I was 18. I've read Marx magna opus, Das Kapital, twice. I have mastered economic and social fields through reading and research on my own. You? I can't wait for your counter-argument.
Now, the results of my approach:
>>2905274 (You)
Are slowly turning your presence obvious.
You were close to condemn the bourgeoise revolutions, the English Civil War of 1640–1660, because the bourgeoisie isn't a progressive force or the French revolution's bourgeoisie
>>2905269 (You) and you were close to say that fascism and nazism aren't reactionary forces. And now you are strawmaning theory and analytical arguments.
In any case, your next tl;dr, and possible counter-argument: "Next step: 'Be stupid is the right choice, that's I how I pick the ukrainian side'."
Your move.
>>2909911>Quick: what's more reactionary: >a state fully controlled by private bourgeoisieor
>a state with strategic state owned enterprises.This was your original question. To which I answered with a "basic Marxism" that states are not class neutral, and therefore it cannot be determined whether "private" or "state" ownership makes a state "more reactionary". Was the NEP era USSR more or less reactionary than modern Saudi Arabia? Is there a meaningful distinction between the "state" and the "bourgeoisie" if the entire state is controlled by the bourgeoisie? Are you lolbert willing to pretend there would be distinction between these too?
>But neoliberalismNot relevant to the original question. Whether Ukraine or Russia is more neolib and to what degree profits are privatized and losses socialized is separate from whether one (of the options you mentioned) is more or less reactionary than the other.
They're also not mutually exclusive. There is no contradiction between a state fully controlled by the private bourgeoisie and a state with strategic state owned enterprises. If said enterprises are ran as capitalist firms.
>See, you came here… dunno, 6 months now? I've been posting almost since the beginning, both in these threads generally and the board.
But cut to the chase. What is your argument here, Ukraine is more neoliberal therefore this war is progressive? Therefore some nazis on the other side (Rusisch) are okay, as is bombing shopping malls, and food warehouses and power plants, but not funerals full of nazis? Is it also progressive when Zionists kill anti-communists albeit whilst massacring tens of thousands of civilians?
>You were close to condemn the bourgeoise revolutionsNo I wasn't. I was nuanced in that some things are defensible and others aren't. Or do you insist that if you think the French Revolution was good it follows you also think slavery in Haiti was good. And if you oppose absolutism you should be okay with genociding the Irish? Do you have autism? Can you grasp nuance?
> you were close to say that fascism and nazism aren't reactionary forces.Dumbstruck you interpreted anything I said as that
>>2909932>but not funerals full of nazis?Just knock it off with the different personas dude.
>>2909932>"basic Marxism" that states are not class neutral, and therefore it cannot be determined whether "private" or "state" ownership makes a state "more reactionary".And the state is not class neutral, which is exactly why the question is determinable rather than not. Engels settles it in Anti-Dühring, the quote I made above (
>>2909260): state ownership isn't socialism, or Napoleon and Metternich would be founders of socialism, and nationalization is an advance once specific conditions hold, even under the state of today. He names conditions and reaches verdicts. Marx does the same in the Manifesto, where the State receiving the instruments of production means the proletariat organized as ruling class.
In private versus public, the question is: which class holds power, and who receives the surplus. As in the fascist states, as in the neoliberal states, private shareholders drew dividends from firms the treasury rescued, finance ministry bail out, under managers from the class that had failed, in a state that had dissolved every workers' organization, actively or passively, in the country. Not ambiguous. Not undeterminable. Just not answerable from the ownership column alone.
And you failed to understand Marx. His entire work of Capital is subtitled A Critique of Political Economy, is an entire critique of Smith, Ricardo, Say, Malthus, Bastiat, the
laissez-faire canon, and I am sorry to inform you, but neoliberalism is a succession of laissez-faire he heavily criticized. The only difference being that in the room where neoliberalism was created: the term néo-libéralisme was coined at the Colloque Walter Lippmann, Paris, 1938, in a meeting convened precisely to declare that laissez-faire had failed and required replacement. Rüstow, Lippmann, Röpke and Hayek were in the room. So Marx would have agreed that neoliberalism is reactionary, but, unlike laissez-faire he vouched for
Marx: But, in general, the protective system of our day is conservative, while the free trade system is destructive. It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point. In a word, the free trade system hastens the social revolution. It is in this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, that I vote in favor of free trade Source: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/01/09ft.htm, neoliberalism uses state violence, under the fascism's conceptual framework, to perpetuate the interest of the bourgeoise and stop any revolutionary potential that Marx saw in the laissez-faire economy. Marx voted for free trade because it drove the antagonism to breaking point. Neoliberalism was designed so that breaking point can never be reached, not by abolishing the vote, but by removing everything that matters from its reach. That is the fascist inheritance: not the small state, which its founders abandoned in Paris in 1938, but the strong state standing between capital and the people who might vote to constrain it.
You can't reclaim Marxist, not even basic Marxist analyses for any argument, you chuddy moron. Not because Marx doesn't like you specifically or I am better than you. You can't reclaim him because you are skipping massive historical events and elements when you try to appeal to his reasonings.
You wanted to deflect a Marxism you didn't study, while you skipped a whole ass historical framework to justify your banderite apologetics.
>Not relevant to the original questionSays who? you?
You have been spending god knows how many time here trying to put Russia at the same level as ukraine, and now it's irrelevant all of the sudden?
> If said enterprises are ran as capitalist firms.The difference is that profits are redistributed, GINI stats reflect this in comparisons between full neoliberal states and countries with actual functioning governments.
<Me: you were close to say that fascism and nazism aren't reactionary forces.>you: Dumbstruck you interpreted anything I said as thatYour line of attack is:
basic Marxism" that states are not class neutral, and therefore it cannot be determined whether "private" or "state" ownership makes a state "more reactionary"If it cannot be determined which state form is more reactionary, then you cannot call fascism and nazism reactionary either.
Let's work with Georgi Dimitrov. He defines fascism in power as:
>the open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinistic and most imperialist elements of finance capitalThree superlatives. A superlative presupposes gradation, you cannot select the most reactionary elements of finance capital unless reactionary-ness comes in degrees and is determinable. On your premise that sentence is gibberish.
Dimitrov then choses an escape route:
>The accession to power of fascism is not an ordinary succession of one bourgeois government by another, but a substitution of one state form of class domination of the bourgeoisie, bourgeois democracy, by another form, open terrorist dictatorship. It would be a serious mistake to ignore this distinction.Both are class domination by the bourgeoisie. The distinction between them is real, determinable, and ignoring it is a serious mistake. Dimitrov is doing precisely what you say cannot be done.
And he says it in the same breath as the other half you'll want to skip: that it is no less serious a mistake to underrate the reactionary measures increasingly developing in bourgeois-democratic countries, measures curtailing the rights of parliament and suppressing democratic liberties. Gradation runs in both directions. That is the point. Your position is the social fascism line. It was held from 1928 to 1934, it prevented a united front in Germany, and the Comintern abandoned it in 1935 precisely because of what it cost.
So it's very easy to interpret that you are considering fascism and nazism not as a reactionary forces. So which one is it?
>basic Marxism" that states are not class neutral, and therefore it cannot be determined whether "private" or "state" ownership makes a state "more reactionary"Or
>fascism and nazism aren't reactionary forces.
>What is your argument here, Ukraine is more neoliberal therefore this war is progressive? Therefore some nazis on the other side (Rusisch) are okay, as is bombing shopping malls, and food warehouses and power plants, but not funerals full of nazis? Is it also progressive when Zionists kill anti-communists albeit whilst massacring tens of thousands of civilians? Ikyk what I am doing here. They are not the same. Now it's time for you to either step up revealing yourself as a nazi apologist, or say loud and clear who's the less reactionary side.
Neither money nor corn
The largest budget deficit since 2022. Ukraine has already burned through much of what the Europeans so painstakingly agreed to give at the start of the year. And now, after spending inordinate amounts of EU aid on firework shows over Russian cities, Zelensky has had enough. Now that the Ukrainian economy is collapsing due to Russia’s air blockade of Black Sea ports, Kiev is demanding an air ceasefire. The outcome, or lack thereof, is rather obvious.
In short, the western aid is being spent on drone strikes on Russia which fail to do much other than invite even more intense Russian drone strikes on Ukraine. The remaining western aid is then spent even faster to buy more air defense systems. Meanwhile, Ukraine’s rapidly tanking economy means less revenues, and hence more need for aid. Tax revenues have already halved over the past month because of Russian strikes on Ukraine’s ports and industrial assets.
Particularly hard hit is agriculture, Ukraine’s main export sector. With Ukraine’s ports empty since late July, August saw agricultural exports drop by more than 40%. 2.7 times less grain was exported in August than July, which was already a bad month. Strikes on warehouses mean that there is less and less space to store the new harvest, which is currently being gathered, though with much less gusto than usual. The minister of agriculture worries that storage space will run out by December, though farmers believe October is more likely.
Farmers have already seen prices for their goods fall by half compared to the start of the harvest. Many are unsure if it’s even worth sowing, with this year’s harvest likely to be at least a third smaller than the last. Finally, attempts to replace the Black Sea ports with overland or Danube transport routes have utterly failed, for quite objective reasons. Due to export bottlenecks, farmers are increasingly switching from grains to more expensive oilseed crops. This is set to accelerate the long-existing trend towards the concentration of agriculture in the hands of large corporations, as well as further degrade soil quality.
Neither money nor corn.
September is when the government completes the next year’s budget and submits the corresponding Bill to parliament. For the past few years, parliamentarians have also spent the month making changes to the current year’s budget. This year is no exception. The government wants to increase defense spending by at least 300 billion hryvnia ($6.7 billion USD), while the military wants 1.1 trillion hryvnia ($24.8 billion USD) for the last four months of the year. Already in June, parliament approved a record 1.5 trillion hryvnia ($33.8 billion USD) addition to the budget, mostly for military needs.
The current situation is rather fragile. This year’s budget expenditures amount to over $143 billion, while the total planned revenue collected within Ukraine amounts to only $64 billion. The difference ($79 billion) is meant to be covered by foreign aid. In fact, the budget depends on external assistance much more than the $64 billion figure shows. Much of domestic tax revenue depends on foreign aid, since income and military taxes are largely collected from the public sector and firms operating on government contracts.
On August 30, Ukraine’s ministry of defense confirmed Zelensky’s recent claim of a 27 billion dollar deficit. Zelensky complained that Europe has been too busy holidaying to pay attention. Zelensky has recently tried to blame the unexpectedly large military deficit on former defense minister Mikhailo Fedorov and the massive drone strikes on Russia throughout this year. There’s certainly some truth to that, although blaming Fedorov for what was clearly Zelensky’s attempt to delight the western partners is a bit much.
Михаил Федоров - ищет западные инвестиции для оборонного фонда - новости политики - ZN.ua
The grifter GOAT Fedorov has left Ukraine with a heap of problems and decamped to sunny Italy.
According to Ukraine’s parliamentary budget committee, military expenditures in the first half of 2026 rose by 17% compared to the previous year. MP Roksolana Pidlasa said that she’d been warned at the start of the year that a deficit of ‘only’ $7.5 billion deficit was likely. Pidlasa also complained that Russian strikes on Ukraine’s ports and industry meant that tax revenues were halved in August alone.
In short, Zelensky seems to have burnt through much of the funds Ukraine was given as part of Europe’s 90 billion euro Ukraine Support Loan (USL). This loan was finally agreed upon back in late April of this year, and is meant to be dripped out over the course of 2026 and 2027. So far, only 8.35 billion euros has been actually disbursed to Ukraine, though Ukraine will supposedly receive 45 billion from the loan over the course of 2026.
The latest news is that the EU will let Ukraine spend some more from the USL on buying more air defense systems.
In other words, it seems like most of this loan is being spent on drones to strike Russia with little effect other than provoking increased Russian attacks on Ukraine — which then requires the rest of the USL to be spent on air defenses. Doesn’t seem like a winning strategy, but let the winter show.
Though it seems that billions of euros have been spent on Ukraine’s endless stream of drones against Russia, this has not exactly crippled Moscow. Even Crimea, the region worst-hit by Ukrainian drones, has seen far fewer power blackouts in September as compared to August and July. Ukraine’s drone forces haven’t reported any strikes on Crimea since August 28. Maybe Ukraine has decided that the cost of making life inconvenient for Russians isn’t worth it.
The minister of finances declared that Ukraine’s 2027 budget is already suffering a deficit of 32.6 billion euros ($37.9 billion USD). This is the difference between what the western partners have promised and the size of the budget. This is apparently the biggest deficit since 2022. The minister noted that more austerity measures for non-military spending may be necessary.
Ukraine's Marchenko to Travel to Finance Chiefs' G-7 Summit - Bloomberg
Minister of finances Serhii Marchenko
All this means that soldiers will continue complaining about their meagre salaries. Shortly before he was fired in the summer, Fedorov announced a rather extravagant new contract system, which supposedly involved payments of up to $10,000 USD a month for assault troopers. It seemed absurd at the time, and with the current fiscal situation, it is sure to remain another of Fedorov’s many unfulfilled promises.
Indeed, an MP complained last week that there is nothing in the budget for military salaries until the end of the year. Yesterday, MP Bohdan Kytsak from Zelensky’s party told state television the following after stating that he has yet to encounter a single soldier who received Fedorov’s fabulous salaries:
In June, a new system for providing financial support to our servicemen was announced, but it never got off the ground. Either no money was allocated for this system, or the funding requirements weren’t properly calculated, as they should have been. And as of September, the system still isn’t working.
What’s more, there is a shortfall of almost one trillion hryvnias [$22.5 billion USD] that needs to be covered now in order to pay what is already stipulated. We’re not even talking about increasing the rate of payments. The existing obligations simply need to be covered.
The Ukrainian media notes that most of the 90 billion EU loan to Ukraine is spent on weapons purchases, and hence does not help the salary problem. In short, soldiers will be lucky to be paid their usual wages of around $500 USD a month.
So what will happen? The NYT cites a number of EU diplomats who believe the only option is simply to pay out more of the USL this year. But this means less military spending next year, in conditions when Ukraine is already not exactly winning.
Despite Zelensky’s demands that the EU speed up the disbursement of the USL, the the EU reiterated its refusal to do so on September 1. It will continue to be slowly dripped out over the next 2 years. The EU spokesperson highlighted that it was extremely difficult to get member states to even agree to this ‘ambitious’ loan to begin with.
Not only are the imperious Europeans unmoved by Zelensky’s complaints, but they are actively prioritizing their financial reputation over Kiev’s appetites. This week, it emerged that the Belgian government is once again blocking the use of the 200 billion euros of frozen Russian assets to aid Ukraine.
The world is not enough. According to the western-owned publication Ukrainska Pravda, the 200 billion euros Ukraine has received since 2022 is still insufficient to cover its needs. This, despite the fact this amounts to the entirety of Ukraine’s pre-2022 GDP.
As of August 27, 2026 also seems set to see less western aid (billions of USD) than previous years.
And Ukraine’s public debt keeps growing, with the ministry of finance stating it amounts to $214.18 billion. At the end of 2021, domestic debt accounted for 42% of public debt, and external debt was 58% — now, the share of domestic debt has fallen to 22%, with 78% of public debt going to foreign creditors. This puts Ukraine’s financial stability at the mercy of exchange rates and the goodwill of creditor countries. Despite fairly favorable debt restructuring, Ukraine will still spend more than a trillion hryvnia this year repaying and servicing its stated debt. Much of this will be financed with new loans.
The situation is such that even publications financed by the EU and owned by George Soros’s Czech business partner are expressing their frustration. Ukrainska Pravda, for instance, is now putting out think pieces castigating the despicable Europeans.
The article begins by noting a rather interesting contradiction — right as the Russian airwar has made Ukrainian cities more dangerous than ever, the EU has decided to significantly increase restrictions on Ukrainian men seeking refuge in the EU. On the one hand, the UP journalist is happy that the EU is helping Ukraine mobilize more troops. But on the other, it doesn’t send a particularly good message about Europe’s designs on Ukraine:
“Ukrainians are not us. If we want to live without the horrors of war, then now the citizens of Ukraine must steadfastly endure these horrors instead of us and restrain the Russian military machine so that it does not reach Europe. And it does not matter that some of them do not want to fight.”
For today’s European Union, Ukrainians are no longer just people who are in trouble; they are people who are called upon to protect Europeans themselves from trouble. And we can hardly condemn the EU for departing from its previous attitude.
The article then ends with the beloved Ukrainian pastime of fantasizing about a Russian attack on the EU:
But the story of sympathy is a two-way street. If Russian military aggression does affect Europe directly in the near future, a surge of empathy in Ukraine is also unlikely.
Most likely, some of our compatriots will feel gloating over the fact that the Europeans failed to stay out of the war. Others will consider this a manifestation of the highest justice. And still others will hope that the new European front will draw a significant part of the enemy’s resources. And it is unlikely that Ukrainians can be condemned for such sentiments.
Speaking of European sentiments, the aforementioned article also touches on the ever-increasing number of violent attacks on Ukrainians in Poland. Personally, I’m inclined to see little objective cause here other than the eternal Polish desire to identify diabolical enemies. One August 2 attack symbolizes just how pointless this violence is. According to the Polish site Onet, a drunk 34 year-old Pole came up to three Ukrainian 20 year-olds and asked them about their involvement in the Ukrainain massacre of Poles in Volhynia — which took place in 1943. 7 other Poles soon appeared to help him beat the unfortunate Ukrainians. They received serious trauma to the head.
The lack of western aid isn’t the only thing contracting revenues. Russia’s shutdown of Ukrainian exports by constantly hitting ports and trading ships has already cost Ukraine billions over the past two months. Particularly badly hit is agriculture, the main generator of export revenues for this once highly-industrialized country.
Kernel plant in western Ukraine shut down due to Russian drone attack | RBC- Ukraine
A grain plant belonging to Kernel, Ukraine’s largest agroholding. It was shut down in 2024 following a Russian drone attack
In August, the country was only able to export 2.15 million tons of agricultural goods. That’s 41.5% less than in July, and the lowest level this year.
Grain exports were hit the worst. The Ukrainian Club of Agrarian Business reported that 2.7 times less grain was exported in August than in the previous month — 0.98 million tons. In July, 2.67 tons of grains were exported, which was already lower than the ordinary wartime level of around 3.5 million.
Certain types of grain suffered particularly badly in August. Corn and barley exports fell more than fourfold, and wheat exports declined by 70%. The situation was exacerbated by Turkey’s ban on wheat imports until October 15, aimed to support local farmers.
Meanwhile, Russian airstrikes mean there is less and less storage space for the harvest. According to the government, even the low current export levels will exhaust all remaining warehouse space by December. Minister of agriculture Taras Vysotsky hopes that grain sleeves placed directly in fields will be able to preserve produce. Ukraine has already appealed for EU aid.
Farmers are more pessimistic, predicting that storage will run out by late October.
This is what makes the current situation quite different to that of spring 2022. Back then, Russia also blockaded Ukrainian sea exports. However, most of Ukraine’s harvest had already been sold. Furthermore, the Europeans had also already sold their harvest, which left plenty of space in European ports to increase shipments of Ukrainian grain.
But the current Russian blockade has come right as the harvest finishes. This means that Ukrainian farmers haven’t sold most of their produce, and European ports are full shipping their own grain.
Ivan Tomich, owner of a farm in the Kirovograd oblast and head of the Union of Ukrainian Peasants, told the media that many farmers are forced to sell their grain ‘at any price’. Sometimes it doesn’t even cover the production costs.
The cost of wheat is 6,000-7,000 hryvnias per ton. And the market price is currently 4,000-6,000 hryvnias, with 4,000 hryvnias more often than 6,000 (the price quoted at elevators, including VAT). Compared to the start of the harvest, prices have fallen by half.
Oleksandr Barsuk, owner of assets including the Kyiv Pasta Factor, confirmed Tomich’s claims. He also noted that the price of wheat has already fallen by 10% due to the domestic oversupply of grain.
The situation is so unclear that many farmers are unsure whether to sow crops. Winter crop sowing should have begun by this time, but the already-cited farmer Tomich told the media that he hasn’t heard of anyone going to the fields yet.
Farmers simply don’t know what to do or whether it’s worth sowing at all. The area earmarked for fall sowing will be reduced by at least a third, and perhaps even more.
Of course, some farmers have begun sowing crops in certain regions. But the volume will clearly be much lower than usual. Minister of Agriculture Taras Vysotsky confirmed such a reduction, particularly for winter wheat. A farmer from the Kherson oblast told Ukrainian media about his doubts:
The situation ahead of the fall harvest is probably the worst since the war began. There’s a catastrophic shortage of money, and even government loans at reduced rates aren’t helping—they’ll still have to be repaid. What’s the point of sowing if you’ll end up working for the banks or in the red?
One interesting result of the grain blockade is an increase of exports in oilseeds. They have a higher price per ton than grains, useful in conditions where export capacities are the bottleneck. The Europeans are also much more willing to import oilseeds than grain, given that the latter so enrage many European farmers. In August, Ukrainian oilseed exports increased by 3.7 times, reaching 329,500 tons. Rapeseed exports increased 15-fold.
This isn’t necessarily a good thing. The cultivation of these crops is highly destructive for Ukraine’s famously fertile soil. A few years ago, I wrote in detail about the negative effects of Ukraine’s post-2014 agricultural specializations. As usual, the post-2022 period has merely intensified the previous trends. And apart from an increased reliance on vegetable oils, the likelihood that many small and medium farms won’t survive the current blockade will bolster the domination of massive agroholdings.
Now that about two months has passed since Russia began its campaign against Ukrainian ports, we can also measure just how dependent Ukraine was on its Black Sea ports. Back when the blockade began, there was speculation about how much the country could replace its Black Sea exports with overland rail and road exports, as well as the smaller ports on the Danube river.
It turns out Ukraine depended on the Black Sea a great deal. The consulting firm Spike Brokers reports that shipments of grain by rail to locations such as the Izmail port on the Danube amounted to only 230,600 tons from August 1 to 26, compared to nearly 1.3 million tons in July — an 82% drop. Rail shipments to Ukraine’s land borders doubled, reaching around 174 railcars a day. However, this has led to a queue of 1,500 railcars loaded with grain.
Port of Izmail handled more than 6 million tons of cargo in January-April 2023 – Infrastructure of Ukraine
Road transport only increased by 11.3% over the past month. Only 280,000 tons were transported by trucks that month.
The already-cited farmer Tomich notes that the alternative export routes are problematic for several reasons. For one, overland routes by truck and rail are limited by EU restrictions on Ukrainian grain exports. Meanwhile, the Danube has run dry, meaning that Romania’s Constanta port is overloaded. Put together, all the non-Black Sea export routes can only transport a third of Ukraine’s regular agricultural exports.
Ukraine, after all, only has the Black Sea. The destruction of the country’s retail sector will also be very costly for the budget. As I mentioned two days ago, close to 80% of state revenues come from trade and services.
Given such tensions, perhaps it isn’t so surprising that Ukraine isn’t rushing to obey all of Brussels’ onerous demands. On September 1, the president was angered that the parliament failed to ratify two laws demanded by the west. This would have supposedly unlocked four billion dollars in aid.
Of course, this sounds somewhat like a case of friendly fire. The parliament is under Zelensky’s control whenever he really needs something passed, like when he got parliament to shut down the anti-corruption organs in 2025, or when they voted through his dismissal of defense minister Fedorov last month.
Nor will the EU’s appetite to fund Ukraine be piqued by the current super-scandal: Zelensky’s ultra-loyal prosecutor general made money off the call centres terrorizing gullible Europeans. But that’s the topic for the next article.
https://eventsinukraine.substack.com/p/neither-money-nor-corn>>2910016>If it cannot be determined which state form is more reactionary, then you cannot call fascism and nazism reactionary either.The state form of fascism isn't solely determined by "private" vs "state" ownership. nor is that which determines it's reactionary nature. What determines the fascist (and reactionary) character of the state is the
structural form it takes at the behest of the interests of a particular class (the bourgeoisie) towards a particular end. Something something
the definition of fascism as according to Comintern. (I.e. the one you're already referring to)
You can keep plastering paragraphs all you want in some (apparent) attempt to make me look like a "chuddy moron" who believes that "If it cannot be determined which state form is more reactionary, then you cannot call fascism and nazism reactionary either." but this is all shit I've never argued. I concerned myself chiefly with.
>Quick: what's more reactionary: >a state fully controlled by private bourgeoisie>a state with strategic state owned enterprises.To which the answer is;
neither.And
both can apply to a particular state at the same time. History has had many states seemingly "fully controlled by private bourgeoisie" and only a few of them committed atrocities comparable to holocaust and the nazi occupation of eastern Europe or the kind of rabid anti-communism that ends with death camps and half a continent ravaged. There's a bit more to Fascism as a phenomenon than bourgeois class dictatorship in itself.
this is the issue with obsessing with "winning" the "debate"; you lose track of the original question and what I was responding to. Which wasn't whether nazism/fascism are reactionary, whether Ukraine is more or less reactionary than Russia, how similar neoliberalism and Fascism are or any of that stuff. But as to whether the reactionary nature of a state is (solely?) down to whether it is "fully controlled by private bourgeoisie" or whether it has "strategic state owned enterprises". To which the answer is is 'no
and also these two options aren't mutually exclusive.''
God damn, imagine trying to twist yourself into a pretzel trying to paint your "opponent" as someone who thinks "fascism isn't reactionary" instead of I dunno, maybe considering the original question wasn't phrased very well/the way you intended or alternatively just letting it go and changing the subject.
>>2910017>>2910018>Our devastating strikes their smokey fires>We're retaliating hard by doing something we were already but now we're doing a lot more of it because of their insignificant attacks which only leave smokey firesThis aside, Any plans for what happens if the strikes don't cease and ukros keep launching drones and cruise missiles from the west bank of the Dnepr?
<inb4 wait for Le Pen/Wiesel Okay but what if other Euro states keep supporting Ukraine and Congress/Presidency flips in the US?
>>2910106>Any plans for what happens if the strikes don't cease and ukros keep launching drones and cruise missiles from the west bank of the Dnepr?Targeting the warehouses where such drones are stored, even if they’ve been tactically placed next to people’s homes.
There was a video doing the rounds on Xitter that depicted a Geran-4 strike on a FP-2 launch site and the site this time is literally a civilian van with a collapsible drone and launcher stowed in the back of it.
So it’s correct to say that Russia probably can’t prevent Ukraine from illegally stowing a suicide drone in the back of a civilian vehicle and launching it from some random field that may or may not be in Ukraine. But that’s neither going to win a war, nor is it likely to encourage diplomacy at which ever point Kiev decides it does want to pinky promise that the conflict is over for them.
It’s a tactic for holding the population of Ukraine hostage. It doesn’t really matter if they want to accept Russia’s terms (even if they actually had the democratic capacity to express that desire) because they don’t have the agency to ensure that NATO and Banderite loyalists stop loading up trucks and vans with drones to take potshots at Russia from literally anywhere that borders Russia (or potentially even from within like a true terrorist cell) in the name of Slava Ukraini.
But of course Thrillpill finds this based! based! based! because as they’ve mentioned before, they’re in Ukraine for fun, not because they’ve any particular attachment to Ukraine nor apparently self-awareness.
>>2910130>But of course Thrillpill finds this based! based! based! No. It's just a matter of fact.
>they’re in Ukraine for fun, I left Ukraine a while ago but I''ll be back soon.
Ukraine collapse status? Surely it must be close any week now.
>>2910139It collapsed during the second week of the SMO, as has been repeated and proven to you trolls time and time again
>>2910087>The state form of fascism isn't solely determined by "private" vs "state" ownership. nor is that which determines it's reactionary nature. What determines the fascist (and reactionary) character of the state is the structural form it takes at the behest of the interests of a particular class (the bourgeoisie) towards a particular end. Something something the definition of fascism as according to Comintern. (I.e. the one you're already referring to)The state not being class neutral is what makes its form readable, not unreadable.
Nicos Poulantzas takes your exact premise, the state as a condensation of class forces, and builds a taxonomy: normal forms, exceptional forms, fascism as one of the latter, authoritarian statism as the post-1970s normal one. That taxonomy is a determination. However, your inference from the same premise is the one that doesn't follow.
And I'm not claiming neoliberalism is fascism. I'm claiming it's a rung, that's why I set chaining events that shows historical associations between neoliberalism and fascism. That's Dimitrov's framing on fascism and the different steps for the superlatives, not mine, he warns it is a serious mistake to underrate the reactionary measures developing inside bourgeois-democratic countries, and calls them the preparatory stages of fascist dictatorship.
When you answer "neither", because "it cannot be determined whether "private" or "state" ownership makes a state "more reactionary", you are making the same mistakes that the Comintern's Third Period position, 1928–1934, had because "all bourgeois state forms are equally reactionary, distinctions between them cannot be determined". That shit that destroyed the possibility for the KPD and SPD to form a united from, and the reason why Trotsky spent 1931–33 attacking it for exactly the reason you've sided: that a worker's fate under bourgeois democracy and under fascist dictatorship differs enormously, even though both are forms of bourgeois rule, and that pretending otherwise disarms the working class.
A ladder needs rungs. Rungs need gradation. Gradation needs determinability. Your position removes all three, and with them any capacity to say a state is becoming fascist, more than others, which is the only thing worth saying before it has.
For you, the only framework in which fascism can be discussed as something that arrives rather than something that is simply present or absent. It is, again, the social fascism error in its precise form: if every bourgeois state is equally reactionary, there is nothing to warn about and no united front to build, because there is no rung above the one you're on.
In the same passage that I gave you about Napoleon and Metternich, Engels continues:
once the means of production have outgrown direction by joint-stock companies, nationalization becomes an economic advance, and even when carried out by the state of today, it constitutes an advance and a preliminary step toward the seizure of all productive forces by society.See how this is part of a ladder, and this sits below neoliberalism?
>this is the issue with obsessing with "winning" the "debate"I haven't lost track.
In fact, I preemptively mentioned IRI in fascist taxonomy to precisely prevent you using that as an argument. That you can't coherently follow through complex ideas reinforces me that eventually you'll do the
>your next tl;dr, and possible counter-argument: "Next step: 'Be stupid is the right choice, that's I how I pick the ukrainian side'."I laid out here
>>2909911
>But as to whether the reactionary nature of a state is (solely?) down to whether it is "fully controlled by private bourgeoisie" or whether it has "strategic state owned enterprises".And every time you answer no, I present solid theoretical evidence and arguments where you can see a >no< it's a stupid answer. Because
a) You don't have Marxism at your side.
b) You are a reactionary on your own account.
>>2910097The difference between you and I is that I don't entrench myself in empty and hollow theoretic-less 'nos' and 'neithers', only backed up with a
>basic Marxism" that states are not class neutral, and therefore it cannot be determined whether "private" or "state" ownership makes a state "more reactionary".That historically was proven wrong, since the end of the Comintern Third Period.
You can't formulate something more elegant, more well-thought, and your screech reeks as cowardice and anti-intellectual.
I guess you prefer me when I called you rarted or simply bandero-lover. Problem is, you are the one coming here.
>>2910142So 12 more years of grinding russians and ukrainians into fine paste to own the libs?
>>2910130That won't backfire at all, later on.
>>2910043yeah this guy is pretty great for ukrainian infos
I've paid for a month btw, so if anyone want a previous article I can copypaste it
>>2910106>ourthis guy is an ukrainian and do not like russia or approve the invasion. He just dont like nazis and nato either, but nafotards cant fathom such a thing.
>something we were already would be an argument if his articles werent backed by stats showing a significant change
but why am I even talking to a nafotard
>>2910186his previous article
not sure whats the best way to share them. Copy pasting loose all the images, screenshot of the webpage is too big for leftypol
https://imgur.com/a/HjpRy1W >>2910017I keep hearing this but Ukkkraine seems to find more money and corn every month somehow
>>2910136>No. It's just a matter of fact. Well I can only surmise that there was a smug tone behind your suggestion that Ukraine can't be stopped. But hopefully you realise now that, actually, perpetually firing warehouse-manufactured retaliation bait from civilian vehicles puts the onus on Ukraine to plan how they could possibly guarantee that ends with a negotiated conclusion to the conflict.
>I left Ukraine a while ago but I''ll be back soon.People weren't in a partying mood anymore?
>>2910236Not really, in times of conflict the bar for what's considered acceptable money/food is constantly lowered to match what is actually available.
>>2910136>I left Ukraine a while ago but I''ll be back soon.With conditions the way they are a sex tourist lot it can't afford not to
>>2910186>I've paid for a month btw, so if anyone want a previous article I can copypaste itThanks! I'm happy to read the articles.
>>2910186Would you be willing to scrape them all from this year's updates? This guy is great,
>>2910048Russia gets its current soldiers per contract, you do know that? They havent mobilized for years now. Ukrops since 2022 have constantly been fearmongering about a huge new mobilization that never comes. You can check their history for their claims. I think the main reason for this is that the Ukrop leadership, including western countries, are being fed wrong information about russian casualities, otherwise it wouldnt make sense.
>>2910077
>The decision underscores a brutal reality: struggling to replace staggering losses of over 40,000 men a month, the Russian military is now turning to the sick and handicapped to sustain its ranks.
that sentence isnt in the article neither is there any mention about cripples or handicapped, kill yourself
>>2910077>>2910048samefag report
>>2910153>I don't entrench myself in empty and hollow theoretic-less 'nos' and 'neithers', only backed up with a Can you grasp the issue with the original question? And why it is neither (or alternatively both can apply at the same time)? Do you think there is a meaningful distinction between "state ownership" and "state controlled by the bourgeoisie" when the bourgeoisie has captured the state? Was the NEP USSR more reactionary than modern Saudi Arabia? Was the Gilded Age US more reactionary than Absolutist France? Can you see the issue here?
>>2910144>And I'm not claiming neoliberalism is fascism. I'm claiming it's a rungCan't say I disagree.
>all bourgeois state forms are equally reactionary, distinctions between them cannot be determinedThis however isn't my argument. It's that state ownership in itself does not tell a lot about what's going on in regards to the class character of the state itself. Modern Saudi Arabia, the USSR and pre-revolutionary France and Russia all had a substantial degree of "state" ownership.
>and that pretending otherwise disarms the working class.But I don't? I don't think all states are equally reactionary. Only that "state ownership" and "capture by the bourgeoisie" isn't mutually exclusive.
If your question had been "In the current historical epoch is a state fully captured by the bourgeoisie more (likely to be) reactionary than one which isn't?" Then
I would have answered yes. I know what you're getting at and I know you think I'm being pedantic, but the distinction matters.
>>2910186There are Russians who write like NAFOids and Ukrainians who are z-gang. And doomers who end up sounding like both. It's difficult to tell at times.
>>2910240I don't think you have to be smug to recognize this isn't going to stop the flow of weapons or Russia getting hit. The supply chain is deep within NATO territory, which the RAF are refusing to strike aside from deniable acts of sabotage.
>People weren't in a partying mood anymore?Work related
>>2910256Wow. Historically progressive!
>>2910442>I don't think you have to be smug to recognize this isn't going to stop the flow of weapons or Russia getting hit. And you’ve absolutely no thoughts on what I’ve said?
>Work relatedAs yet unspecified work.
>>2910451>And you’ve absolutely no thoughts on what I’ve said? Some things just are. Bit like the weather. Disguised launch platforms aren't a surprising development. Am I supposed to call this evil and unfair?
>As yet unspecified work.Sex trafficking obviously
>>2910452>Am I supposed to call this evil and unfair?You’re missing the point entirely.
>>2910453I wasn’t part of that particular discussion. I can’t believe you drew a picture to self-victimise over an internet thread, very Tumblr.
>>2910412Today is the official 1.5 million casualties day. 1% of entire Russian population has now been killed or have both legs amputated.
>>2910461No shut up!
Fast comrades, post some anti zelensky memes. Include some info on how Ukraine is nazi.
Is ukraine fascist?
>>2910475Well the latest Zelensky meme is him claiming Russia tried to take him out with a drone, despite not being in the same country as where the drone struck.
>>2910412Rosencrantz and Guildenstern meeting with Hamlet is concluded.
>>2910442>Can you grasp the issue with the original question?Yeah. Unlike you, I decided to took a different approach ITT. I posted about it.
>>2904185>What do you want to hear to change your position about the war?What was your answer:
>>2904349You put the kremlin in a worse position than the banderite regime, layered with pseudo-Marxism. Afterwards, I set up a line of arguments in Marxist theory to deconstruct both the economic structures of Russia and Ukraine; given Marx's "
Right can never be higher than the economic structure of society and its cultural development conditioned thereby"; and your pseudo-Marxist arguments you covered the equivalence between them two.
The argumentation presented to you has
>Historical evidence>Marxist theoretical framework (not cherrypicking Marxism)>Evolution theory of fascism and neoliberalism in states and the latter as a succession of the former.The conversation stalled to, what I expected here:
>>2905274, an entrenched argument you decided to pick.
You were asked what do you want to hear to change your mind, you were given reasons to change your mind and you did a tim pool move, defending nazism and fascism, btw.
The only reason for you to do this is that:
>You are paid to do so>You are a reactionary person.All these:
"And why it is neither (or alternatively both can apply at the same time)? Do you think there is a meaningful distinction between "state ownership" and "state controlled by the bourgeoisie" when the bourgeoisie has captured the state? Was the NEP USSR more reactionary than modern Saudi Arabia? Was the Gilded Age US more reactionary than Absolutist France? Can you see the issue here?"
Has been answered. You are walking on circles over points that my replies:
>>2910144 >>2910016 >>2909911 >>2909683 have addressed. But let's walk all over again the arguments.
>I don't think all states are equally reactionary. Only that "state ownership" and "capture by the bourgeoisie" isn't mutually exclusive.I know this because I presented the IRI example in fascist Italy, the difference is that ukraine has little to none, and the little it has is threatened to be privatized, as past re-nationalizations showed. Comparing having nothing to having is typical bad faith argument, and I am doing a list of reactionary bad faith arguments you have present.
And the sad part is that you bring Bourbon France and Tsarist Russia as an example of state ownership enterprises behavior under capitalism. A list of states doing work the argument doesn't earn.
If state ownership is analytically empty everywhere, then IRI's state ownership is unremarkable, and October 1917's expropriations are analytically equivalent to Louis XIV's royal manufactories. Apparently, expropriating the Russian bourgeoisie in 1918 was a change of title equivalent to Louis XIV chartering Saint-Gobain.
You said the variable is capture. So run it: Saudi Aramco's surplus flows to a dynastic rentier class. Bourbon manufactories' surplus flowed to the crown and aristocracy. Soviet industry's surplus flowed to no private claimant, because the owning class had been expropriated, no shareholders, no dividends, no private residual.
You want to put them in the same bag, you've assembled four cases and called them alike on the one variable you say doesn't classify, while your own variable separates them cleanly. Engels doesn't hold that. He says state ownership isn't socialism, Napoleon and Metternich, and that nationalization constitutes a preliminary step toward social seizure, even when carried out by the state of today. Two claims, both in the same passage. You're using the first to erase the second.
So title alone doesn't classify. Agreed, and I've agreed twice already, thrice with this. Title plus appropriation classifies, and it sorts your four cases,
that's why I, as I said earlier, preemptively bring the IRI case, without any ambiguity at all.
Oh and by the way, and because I could run a test for the 4 cases you presented, this for "isn't mutually exclusive" argument you have recurrently used without evidence for various replies, then, you have been running that argument , you must now tell me they're equivalent, and on what evidence. For Russia and Ukraine that is. I know you haven't presented the evidence because it will be re-directed to you.
The neat part is that you dropped the "'basic Marxism' that states are not class neutral, and therefore it cannot be determined whether "private" or "state" ownership makes a state 'more reactionary'." line of argument explicitly.
>>2910451Probably ukraine ran out of money, so he has to leave. I saw.. richard woodrooff? I don't remember his name. The British banderite in kiev, leaving the capital.
Since ukraine now is fixated in Colombian mercs, I am sure that ukraine is getting too poor to pay 1st world accommodations. so the woodrooffs and our resident banderite leave en masse.
>>2910558Yeah that Woodruff character claims to be leaving Ukraine but he’s threatened that multiple times in the past, he’s pretty needy in terms of personal attention despite his supposed dedication to Ukraine’s defence.
I suppose for Thrillpill another question is did his lover join him to leave Ukraine “for work”? Supposedly they’re of an age and gender that isn’t allowed to leave. If not, that’s ice cold.
Is war over or no
>>2910557Look
>What do you want to hear to change your position about the war?Is different from "which is more reactionary"
I think what you're not grasping here is that I don't care if Russia is slightly "less reactionary" because it has more state owned enterprises or whatever. My issue has to do with things that have nothing to with
state ownership in itself. Similar to how I doubt Bankova nationalizing the entire Ukrainian economy and then appointing azovites to lead every ministry and state enterprise would convince you that Ukraine isn't "reactionary". (You've already raised an argument for why this wouldn't necessarily be "socialism")
I don't have this sterile mechanical view of history where reactionary movements in Ukraine are solely down to the bourg capturing the Ukrainian state if that's what's being implied. There are brainworms involved in the Ukronationalism (and likewise "traditionalism" on the other side) that wouldn't be cured by nationalizing every enterprise. Bourbon France except
everything is owned by the Church or the Crown would still be reactionary.
>>2910564Said lover isn't Ukrainian. Which helps.
>>2910256Racists don't understand that no matter how much money you give them, people will dislike you.
Reports of Ukrainian Chemical attacks in Crimea using domestically produced Nerve Agents
>>2910598>Said lover isn't Ukrainian. Which helps.I shouldn’t have jumped to such conclusion, perhaps Ukraine is currently a Mecca for sex tourism
>>2910598>Is different from "which is more reactionary"and
>I think what you're not grasping here is that I don't care if Russia is slightly "less reactionary"You accused Russia of things ukraine does on a daily basis. Don't act smug saying the two things aren't connected, now. And Russia not being that way is what you would use to
change your position about the war, that's the point I've been doing to change that view.
>My issue has to do with things that have nothing to with state ownership in itselfMarx:
>Right can never be higher than the economic structure of society and its cultural development conditioned therebyDo you want to do a course on identity politics now? Not in this discussion. And even less when you tried to slide in the
>"'basic Marxism' that states are not class neutral, and therefore it cannot be determined whether 'private' or 'state' ownership makes a state 'more reactionary'."walking away from the class analysis.
You either stick with it, or call yourself radlib.
>I don't have this sterile mechanical view of history where reactionary movements in Ukraine are solely down to the bourg capturing the Ukrainian state if that's what's being implied.
>who financed azov battalion>who financed operation aerodynamicAccording to you, you have been "years in this thread". Answer these simple questions/
>There are brainworms involved in the Ukronationalism (and likewise "traditionalism" on the other side) that wouldn't be cured by nationalizing every enterpriseThen why they were so hasty in neoliberalizing ukraine in the 90s and kept all of these things neoliberalized? Do you understand the economic reasons argued by Yanukovich on why he decided not to enter the EU?
>>2910647>You accused Russia of things ukraine does on a daily basis.Uhuh. But is it untrue?
>And Russia not being that way is what you would use to change your position about the warYes, and?
>Do you want to do a course on identity politics now? Not in this discussion. And even less when you tried to slide in the There's more to life and what drives behavior than class relations and public vs private ownership. There's categories of psychosexual pathologies which inform the worldviews of millions which might be exacerbated by class but aren't reducible to them. The USSR and its downfall is proof that "public ownership" and abolishing the bourgeoisie does not cure all levels of reactionary brainrot.
Not reducing the class character of a state to whether enterprises are "state owned" or not is still "basic Marxism" however.
>Then why they were so hasty in neoliberalizing ukraine in the 90s and kept all of these things neoliberalized? Do you understand the economic reasons argued by Yanukovich on why he decided not to enter the EU?Porky greed? But reversing this does not cure all the nationalist brainworms on both sides.
>Yanukovich on why he decided not to enter the EU?He was offered a better deal and the opposition threw a fit?
>>2910676>There's more to life and what drives behavior than class relations and public vs private ownership. DING.
We got a radlib.
Sad, he tried to use Marxism as a class tool to reject the analysis of state ownership b. neoliberalism, and now flips the argument he used to cultural wars.
>>2910676Also, note how the questions:
>who financed azov battalion>who financed operation aerodynamicWent unanswered.
Along with
>>2910557>Oh and by the way, and because I could run a test for the 4 cases you presented, this for "isn't mutually exclusive" argument you have recurrently used without evidence for various replies, then, you have been running that argument , you must now tell me they're equivalent, and on what evidence. For Russia and Ukraine that is.Apparently, reaction appears out of nowhere. It's a manifestation that burst out of peoples mind.
Possibly, genetically pre-disposition, right?
>Yes, and? You are not here to change your mind, and when you answered to this question
>>2904185 , when I try to engage in good faith.
>The USSR and its downfall is proof that "public ownership" and abolishing the bourgeoisie does not cure all levels of reactionary brainrot. The infiltration of the west through multiple fronts,
financing reactionaries (I asked you about oepration aerodynamic, you didn't answer), yeltsin obviously backed by the cia disobeying the 17 March 1991 referendum, and the USSR insistence in leaving the right to secede open is what caused the fall, not some vibes-and-feels analyses of "psychosis" and shit, you utter radlib shitlib.
>but reversing this does not cure all the nationalist brainworms on both sides. GINI proves this wrong immediately, but again:
>you have been running that argument , you must now tell me they're equivalent, and on what evidence. For Russia and Ukraine that is.x2.
See how this works? I present lines of arguments, with evidence, you continuously derive the conversation somewhere else without evidence.
>Porky greed?porky greed would've been siding with the eu, you absolute moron. Which one is richer, the EU or Russia. Fucking twat, but I know you won't answer the question that puts you in a difficult situation.
And with this, we exemplify what nafoturds are all about
>idealisms>radlibery>arguing in bad faith. >>2910676mate, idk how to say this but.. you are losing this debate lmao
>>2910565Basically it's over.
Ukraine lost but the bombings of Kiev and other cities will drag until zelensky is ousted and replaced by someone else. It's in a similar state to Us-Iran-Israel conflict - the victor is obvious, the defeated party refuses to admit it lost.
>>2910718>>2910720jesse what the fuck are you talking about you're the one constantly sperging about muh russian clay, eurasian civilization and how the other nation ain't real!! you're trying to oppose state ownership and neoliberalism yet putin admitted to being a chicago boy while Engels pointed out an era ago that this argument was spurious otherwise we would have to recognize Napoleon as the founder of socialism, your stupid
In my opinion Russian Federation currently in this weird limbo. On one hand the State has a massive role in it's economy, basically all the major corporations are state owned. Almost the Universities are state owned, the best health clinics in Russia with top medicine are state owned. Big pharma is state owned. Only IT cluster is private but heavily regulated or forced to suffer under sanctions. As of right now Russian government is ass fucking remaining private owned fuel/oil providers. Basically only state owned gas stations have reliable gas supplies hence the lines at the gas stations.
Most social programs like healthcare, education (aside from housing which is a massive pain i assure you) were left mostly untouched and are kind of similar to the USSR.
Yet on paper there's freedom of entrepreneurship, but a lot of business avoid taxes when possible.
The government also used to or maybe still gives out grants/credits for new business owners in specific regions (mostly poor ones).
I'd say Russia is closer to China, than any of the western capitalist country but in the end it's neither, it's this weird thing in the middle that somehow works, nobody knows how.
>>2910732>>Porky greed?>porky greed would've been siding with the eu, you absolute moron. Which one is richer, the EU or Russia. Fucking twat, but I know you won't answer the question that puts you in a difficult situation.eu has veryb strict demands about rule of law etc which limits porky's power
in russian satrapies porky's got unlimited power (vide modern chechnya)
>>2910732>who financed azovI recall having a similar discussion to this before in a different thread ages ago. Turn it around; without rightoid psychosexual pathologies there would be no Azov no matter the funding. Not including orgs like those being well capable of funding themselves through the proceeds of crime. (which some of these nationalist militias including the infamous Tornado already did) Besides who was funding these nationalist orgs in the 1980s? Check who backed Pamyat («Память») at the time for example.
>b-but infiltrationDo you think anyone can be paid to do fascism? It doesn't work like that. (Male Fantasies by Klaus Theweleit is relevant here) Also how do you explain the Ukrainian independence referendum? Was that all CIA funding?
>GINI proves this wrong immediately, but again:Russia had higher income inequality than Ukraine according to the World bank back in 2020. Sorry to disappoint you but there's rightoidism in places like Norway too.
>Apparently, reaction appears out of nowhere. It's a manifestation that burst out of peoples mind.No, it is also due social structures and psychological traits which do not map neatly unto capitalist relations of production. E.g. misogyny, racism, homophobia, tribalism generally and so on all predate capitalism as the dominant mode of production.
>You are not here to change your mindMy mind would be changed by the Kremlin changing course, not by you typing paragraphs about neoliberalism's relation to fascism, and state owned enterprises. "Racism, xenophobia, homophobia, misogyny, mass surveillance, censorship, bible thumping, traditionalism with state capitalists characteristics" does not make either of these two sides more charming.
>>2910733What would make me change my mind about Russia is not up for "debate" or what some anonymous audience here thinks. Unless FARCAnon can convince me all the stuff I mentioned is not in fact happening over in Russia. There's an implicit argument here too Ukraine is more reactionary, yet I'm curious how FARCanon would explain all the reactionary shit I listed existing in Russia. And why is some of it worse in Russia compared to Ukraine?
>>2910720I agree with Marx regarding class dictatorship and the state. There's no flipping because this is not something I've ever disagreed with here. But I'm not reducing what I listed (reactionary stuff, psychosexual pathologies, etc) to class and private vs state ownership.
>, you must now tell me they're equivalentWhy? My point was that "state ownership" doesn't clarify the class character of the state or the degree to which it is (historically) reactionary. Why do I need to "prove" they're all equivalent?
>>2910462You can't guarantee it anymore you can guarantee Hezbollah not launching missiles at Israel. It could happen (as in, it's not physically impossible). But you gotta ask why? What's in it for ukronationalists to keep hitting Russia after they get their hands on Crimea and the Donbas?
Or maybe some Hezbollah kinda deal where a third party keeps the backing going? I can't look that far into the future so I dunno. But it's also possible for conflicts like these to simply end.
>The Ukrainian population have been, as the kids say, “locked in” against their will. What do you think about that?Bit like watching a parasite gnaw its way into a bug. Yeah it's pretty grim. But also fascinating.
>>2910793>There's an implicit argument here too Ukraine is more reactionaryI made the explicit argument that the Ukrainian government has intentionally put itself in the position where, even if somehow deposed by forces that wish to conditionally surrender to Russia, it can go full Operation Gladio and keep the conflict going regardless of what the population (much of which is not legally allowed to leave) wants.
Your takeaway was
>Some things just are. Bit like the weather.>Am I supposed to call this evil and unfair?as though THD being actually a possibility via fratricide within a prison state is a rhetorical appeal to emotion, rather than something literal.
so I'm going to call it, Ukraine is the most reactionary state since Nazi Germany and you being an aloof sex tourist there doesn't change that.
>>2910811>But you gotta ask why? What's in it for ukronationalists to keep hitting Russia after they get their hands on Crimea and the Donbas? You haven't answered my question of
>Why does that remove the ideological motivation of Banderites in Ukraine to strike Russia via illegal (yet NATO endorsed) means until Red Square is burning (as demonstrated in this photo), especially given the likely post-war situation for Ukraine? >>2910765you didnt adress his argument and lol at the "rule of law". its on a piece paper so it must mean its true, and corruption isnt a thing in the EU, because unlike in the USSR where it was shunned and illegal, here it is completely legalized and normalized. Any Anti-ziggers that show up in this thread are the worst kind of liberals who default to moralism the minute somebody question their integrity.
>>2910765>eu has veryb strict demands about rule of law etc which limits porky's powerLol
>>2910765>etc which limits porky's powerand not too mention that this could only have been written by somebody who never lived or set foot in the EU. imagine defending this thoroughly bourgeois institution which itself doesnt even pretent its anything else
>>2910819>Ukraine is the most reactionary state since Nazi GermanyMore reactionary than Afghanistan? No. (inb4 someone calls me a shitlib because I think the rights of women aren't irrelevant to how reactionary a state is)
>>2910836Yes. Because Banderites have engineered this conflict (including acting like hype men in the lead up to conflict with Russia) to act as a "dead man's hand" to prevent Ukraine ever progressing beyond the post-Soviet conditions they thrived in.
If you depose them from power, they have an Operation Gladio funded and supplied by NATO to ensure the conflict still can't end.
The "defensive" small smokey fires in Russia means de-industrialisation in Ukraine goes from the factories being under-utilised to simply becoming rubble.
The corruption and theft of whatever wealth exists within their economy even during such dire times is driven by more than greed, that exists everywhere, but any kind of growth is antithetical to their mission to freeze Ukraine in the 90s.
Etc, etc.
Unlike Islamists, they're not religious fanatics. They're just acutely aware that it's only in Ukraine that Neo-Nazi football hooligans could have ever come to political and military power and those unique conditions therefore must be exacerbated rather than remedied.
Yes a country like Afghanistan is going to remain backwards in terms of social liberalism due to their religious fundamentalism, but presumably that doesn't preclude
economic development along the lines of fellow Islamist states like Saudi Arabia. It is Ukraine uniquely that suppresses both social liberalism *and* economic development
on principle.
>>2910848>Don't careNever said this. I do care in that I find it interesting and it involves places I've seen and people I know in person. I don't care in the sense I don't think this is an eschatological Good vs Evil Hoomins vs Orcs conflict with existential larger than life stakes which will completely upend the lives of billions of people living thousands of miles from the frontline.
>Some refinery explodes in Russia and it takes at max one day before you chime in with a snarky comment which is never funny,No. I don't comment on every smokey fire, or most of them. I do poke fun at hysteria, fluffing and copium. I critique and poke fun at NAFOid bullshit too in other places, but there's barely any of that here because this thread has been a Z-gang circlejerk for ages.
Besides most of my comments in this particular edition have been part of some discussion about what makes a state reactionary, which isn't specifically about Russia (or Ukraine). And was prompted by FARCanon asking me what would change my mind (about Russia).
Might as well ask; why are
you here? Are you affected by the conflict? People you know? Do you live in Ukraine, Belarus or Russia? Lived there? Mentioned it months ago, but I have more of a proximity to this conflict than many of the regular posters here.
>>2910853I still don't see how this is more reactionary than Afghanistan taking into account the lives of people living in both countries.
>Ukraine uniquely that suppresses both social liberalismHaving been there. This wasn't my impression.
>why do you keep coming back to this thread about a conflict involving a country (and surrounding countries) you've lived in whose languages you speak and where you know the locals and experienced some of the consequences of said conflict on a board you've been posting on almost since ~2015
I dunno man you tell me
>>2910875Because you have to do something while waiting for the comeup on your discount boner pills before enjoying your trafficked women
>>2910256>we threw money at the problem, yet it persists, WTF?our best EU leaders, ladies and gentlemen
>>2910870>I still don't see how this is more reactionary than Afghanistan taking into account the lives of people living in both countries. Because you seemingly think "reactionary" means "couldn't be a sex tourist there", and yes I suspect Afghanistan would be much riskier in that regard.
>Having been there. This wasn't my impression.Oi oi, wink wink, nudge nudge! Say no more, say no more!
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-lgbt/constantly-pursued-ukraines-lgbt-activists-attacked-online-and-in-the-street-idUSKBN2F414J/ >>2910910Then russia is the progressive force in this historical context.
>>2911016Don't think "women" was the keyword there.
>>2911016Very funny but
I'm bi>>2910986Also very funny but not allowing women to leave their homes on their own is at least a tad bit more reactionary than Ukraine
>>2911020Well, we'll see what happens with that. If Cucktin just puts in a pro-Russian dictator who's just as bad as every other Nazoid Ukkkranian leader, only now on Russia's side, I wouldn't call that historically progressive. That's just Amerikkkan style imperialism. Ukkkraine is still a dictatorship that fucks over the prols. But if Ukkkraine just becomes part of Russia which crushes all extremely reactionary elements, that'd be nice.
>>2911043>pro-russian dictator is installed and spends the next 14 years shelling western ukraine while suppressing their language, religion, history and culture, while all media and state institutions explain that this is democracy and freedom actuallyfair timeline
>>2911043There is already something happening as a consequence of this war. A whole slew progressive developments. This war is not merely regional conflict, it has world historical significance.
>>2911073To dismiss it as "le interimperialist conflict" is wrong.
>>2910870>I don't care in the sense I don't think this is an eschatological Good vs Evil Hoomins vs Orcs conflict with existential larger than life stakes which will completely upend the lives of billions of people living thousands of miles from the frontline.you have been using the same strawman argument for months now, sorry but this just cope
>>2911073>A whole slew progressive developments. Such as? Russia has never been this weak. Their position was stronger on every single metric before this war and they blew it all away. Respect towards russian state is now pity. Why are they killign their own citizens like this? Why are they sacrificing their economy like this? What is achieved with this mass murder that makes it worth it?
>>2911085Progress was always painful.
>>2911086Okay but where is the progress? What makes this worth it?
>>2911087wait till you find out "historically progressive" just means "advanced the inevitable course of history" (and by history marx and engels mean class struggle) and you find that can apply to every single event that ever happened retroactively because eventually they advanced class warfare
>>2911087Collapse of the NATO's reputation happened. Russia has effectively shown that NATO cannot possibly prevent its main adversary from gaining ground, even when it's directly involved in the conflict.
Without this war - Iran/US/Israel thing wouldn't have happened nor would it have such a strong impact on the perception of the US military power in the world.
If NATO can't stop Russia, if US can't do shit to Iran's military program and protect it's assets in the middle east, what's the point of that massive military spending? What's the point of NATO? Where all that money went if in the end the result is weak af.
>>2911138>Russia has effectively shown that NATO cannot possibly prevent its main adversary from gaining groundcope city
>>2910909If real, the memes that will come out of this will rival the tunnels.
>>2911142Okay, will there be any proper arguments?
>>2910765>eu has veryb strict demands about rule of law etc which limits porky's powerDING DING DING
we reaching to another
>le superior race>le superior porky>le superior this and thatTalking point. This is what eurocentrism white supremacism looks like.
Next step: it's because Russia is an Asiatic horde.
>>2911083Coping about what?
>>2910732>porky greed would've been siding with the eu, you absolute moron. Which one is richer, the EU or Russia. Fucking twat, but I know you won't answer the question that puts you in a difficult situation.Missed this one because I was tired the other night. But lel what the hell are you on about. It was Ukro porkies and nationalists who gleefully participated in privatizing state firms. You think post-USSR porkies were innocent?
>>2910735The 90s were 27 to 36 years ago. Do you understand that or should I graph the % of GDP coming from the public owned industries growth since from the 90s to today in Russia and compare it with ukraine?
I can do that.
>jesse what the fuck are you talkingRead the question:
>>2904185 >>2911161>Napoleon is the founder of socialismretard alert retard alert
>>2911169Re-read the reply chain. You'll find that I preemptively touched the topic of Napoleon. In fact, I went beyond and covered IRIS in the fascist italian state.
Read, or stay pleb.
>>2910793>Turn it around; without rightoid psychosexual pathologies there would be no Azov no matter the fundingNo Marxists in these threads t argue this.
But that is not an answer to the question.
Why are you refusing to answer that simple question?
<WHO FINANCED AZOV.About Память, it wasn't the soviet state. You are using recounts of people leaving the USSR trying to sell a book in the west, like those talking about Molotov being senile as factual. That's like giving face of value to what gusanos say about Cuba, because they "had connections" lmao.
The actual records show that were individuals that funded the organization.
In any case, the only person who met them was BORIS FUCKING YELTSIN in May of 1897. The future-to-be cia-backed chud meets the reactionaries he needed for his plans, when gorby weakened the control of the Soviet state.
And even so, the USSR arrested, and sentenced to jail one of the main leaders, Konstantin Smirnov-Ostashvili. How many high ranking officials of the azov, kraken, right sektor, etc. have been arrested and sentenced to jail?
I know you won't answer the questions because that's how you operate, you don't want to change your mind since point:
>>2904185, you just simply hate Russia, for whatever reactionary position you have.
>Do you think anyone can be paid to do fascism?What part of
<Right can never be higher than the economic structure of society and its cultural development conditioned therebydon't you understand?
Individuals see other individuals driving expensive cars. Most individuals don't stop and say: I want to be communist. Most people will want to do what that person is doing. If the owner of the expensive car is doing fascism, that's what most people will want to do.
That's basic Marxism Structure-Supersturcture analysis.
Reactionary ideologies don't, can't survive without material support.
> Also how do you explain the Ukrainian independence referendum?After stupid yeltsin went on dissobeying the 17 March 1991 referendum? Why would ukrainians care about staying in a place where yeltsin was actively sabotagging it? and your "Was that all CIA funding?" do you understand that project aerodynamic exists since 1950?
>Russia had higher income inequality than Ukraine according to the World bank back in 2020. Sorry to disappoint you but there's rightoidism in places like Norway too. I am talking about Russia constant reduction of the GINI.
And if you want to put ukraine low GINI as a counter-argument, ukraine is extremely stagnated. No economic growth, no chances of wealth of inequality. The GDP cumulative 100 shows that it never went beyond the SSR era.
I, for any other reader, attached Russia, side by side with ukr.
>My mind would be changed by the Kremlin changing courseYour
idea of the Kremlin.
>I agree with Marx regarding class dictatorship and the stateSo you agree that fascists and nazism aren't reactionaries?
Incredible the lengths one person goes to just to avoid saying how Azov came into existence.
They manifested out of thin air.
yeltsin manifested out of thin air, not that gorby weakened the communist state.
>>2911043there's already a precedent in chechnya illustrating what falling into russian orbit looks like. spoiler: it's grim with a side of islamism.
>>2911223>how Azov came into existence.Step 1: The Russians decided Communism sucked and switched to capitalism
Step 2: Ukrainian diaspora living in the West came back to Ukraine now that Soviet power is gone and they won't get stopped by Soviet border guards
Step 3: Soviet education is abolished so nationalistoids got free reign over every country that used to be part of the Soviet bloc
Step 4: Ukrainians are now taught to value their freedom and independence and culture just like any other capitalist state
Step 5: This makes Russia really really really really really really really really mad for some reason (even though Putin and everyone else currently in the Russian government supported blowing up the USSR) and they begin covertly supplying arms to their sympathizers in the east after the pro-Western faction in Ukraine takes full control in 2014, creating a civil war
Step 6: Azov along with other far right nationalist groups get started with their raison d'etre to kick out the Russians from Ukraine
>>2911231A scenario like Chechnya would be an outright win for Russia at this point. In Chechnya the Russians at least replaced the government with sympathizers. This will not happen in Ukraine since Ukraine has resisted far harder and grinded them to a stalemate. Even Putin doesn't dare dream of a Chechnya scenario since the official military goal is still only the 4 oblasts.
>>2911267>This will not happen in Ukraine since Ukraine has resisted far harder and meat-grinded themselves into making Russian advances practically unnecessaryftfy
>>2911159>It was Ukro porkies and nationalists who gleefully participated in privatizing state firms.There's no such a thing as "nationalist porkie" in ukrainian politics. It's well known that their fortunes are all in Cyprus and other Europeans, where ukraine contributed roughly $166.8 billion to the global offshore industry. Take into account that it hovers near $180 to 200bn means exported wealth roughly equal to the entire annual output of the country. That's the ordoliberals shared dream of the reformed free-market laisse-fairez: a strong state using violence, fascism, to protect what the market decided: to convert ukraine into a neoliberal shithole place where the if the market decides that ukraine's wealth is in Cyprus, it'll be in Cyprus.
When Yanukovich decided not to go for the EU ascension, it was to prevent the entrenchment of the neoliberal state, because the IMF wanted to implement an austerity program:
>household gas tariff liberalisation above all (no gas subsidies on domestic gas)>pension reform>devaluation>The DCFTA would have opened those firms to European competition. >👆With no EU standards, those Donbas steel, coal and machinery would not have had chance to compete in ukraine's own market, and would have face bankruptcy.and worse:
With a signature of the EU acquis, the fate of ukraine would have been sealed forever. The EU project is in principle neoliberal project. The DCFTA, ukraine was required to sign, approximated Ukrainian law to the EU acquis across hundreds of regulatory areas.
If you want to argue that the EU isn't neoliberal, you'd be wrong at all fucking levels, you moron.
If your 6 steps program starts stepping on a lie, you'll end up drawing the wrong conclusions.
>>2911287It's fun how my renewed strategy has revealed the reactionaries elements of those self-proclaimed ultras.
the one using Marxist
>"'basic Marxism' that states are not class neutral, and therefore it cannot be determined whether "private" or "state" ownership makes a state "more reactionary".Now is self-expossed as someone who can't say if fascists and nazis are reactionaries, if he follows to the tee his own reasoning.
One who can't r>ead the whole thread and needs to put the
>eu has veryb strict demands about rule of law etc which limits porky's powerAnother who puts the
>Napoleon is the founder of socialismDespite I preemptively talked about that already….
and the funniest, the 6-step program in which is all Russian's fault. LMAO
I really thank this video and
>>2905274 the person who sent it to me. This is not the only place I am using the technique and is yielding results, in my party meetings, in other social media I participate in.
And the mod who banned me on the basis of "never met a contrarian bad faith argument" must be malding. I went from the usual bickering, to actually exposing who are the reactionaries.
>>2911294the country used to be young democracy. sure, it had problems but every young democracy does. you can watch their first (and only) free election on ap archive.
after the terror campaign of the first and second chechen wars russians set up a clan of turncoats as the region's satraps which turned the country into the worst despotism in the region no laws no nothing ̣
russia is a cancer and everything it touches it turns into an even worse cancer because that's the easiest way of enforcing control.
so if russia captures ukraine it's not going to turn it into a better state, it's going to degrade it to worst possible state
>>2911312>young democracy>free electionFake and Gay
>clan of turncoats as the region's satraps which turned the country into the worst despotism in the region no laws no nothing>easiest way of enforcing controlBased
You call this grim? What are you a liberal?
I love that shit. That's how you run an empire.
Read this. Locke sucks. Filmer is right.
>>2911312I hate laws. Screw your laws. Now I hope Russia wins even harder.
>>2911312>>2911315We’re just ignoring that NATO turned the entire country into its cannon fodder against Russia, then agitated for war?
>>2911315No, it will be a properly organized satrapy which is good. I support feudalism because communism is advanced feudalism.
>>2911327i appreciate your frankness
if only ziggers were as honest as you this thread would've been over in two posts
>>2911329You barely provided any cohesive argument ITT, in fact i've yet to see anything substantial from you besides
>RUSSIA BADIf someone asks why all you do is say
>JUST CAUSE IT IS ALRIGHT I READ IT IN THE NEWSTry again or something.
>>2911333i recounted the story of chechnya and assumed that russian ukraine would share the same fate since since it's the very same circumstance
how is this not a cohesive argument?
>>2911336>i recounted the story of chechnyaWhy does it matter? It's fucking irrelevant what happened to chechnya and nobody gives a shit what happens to ukraine or it's population.
If Russia captures Ukraine it will hit the EU/NATO hard and that's the only important outcome. I'd even say that Russia should bomb the baltics or poland just to speed up the collapse of both.
I don't think that EU can be reformed, so anything that destabilizes the EU from the outside is fine.
What's your take on this?
>>2911312wow, straight up state dpt invented history now. do you write for the nyt?
i can also
>>2911338>It's fucking irrelevant what happened to chechnyavery relevant to the topic of ukraine
>and nobody gives a shit what happens to ukraine or it's population. aparently some people care (even if not you)
>What's your take on this?i already posted why becoming isis is a terrible survival tactics for the russoidal race a couple days ago
long story short - you may not have as much to lose but it's far easier for you to lose it all
>>2911342>very relevant to the topic of ukraineWhat happens to ukrainians doesn't matter if you look at the bigger picture. The war fucks up the EU which is a good thing.
>becoming isis is a terrible survival tactics for the russoidal racewe got ourselves a race realist here.
Again my point is that it's irrelevant what happens to eastern european countries as long as it fucks up the EU.
If poles balts and ukrainians are so retarded and hopelessly brainwashed with MUH LOVELY NATION MUH CUNTRY they willing to die for their corrupt shitholes who gives a crap, it's their fault and their governemnt's fault who are willing to throw away lives needlessly.
From my perspective Russia is a useful tool to bring down the EU.
>>2911198>the only person who met them was BORIS FUCKING YELTSIN in May of 1897Who did Boris Yeltsin meet in 1897?
>>2911350>1897The ghost of kiev, obviously. LMAO
>>2911346>What happens to ukrainians doesn't matterto you.
>>2911353I don't see ukrainians actively protesting agains zelensky or doing anything to stop him. Instead they post nazi and fascist shit on twitter/instagram and call videos of other ukrainians getting forcefully drafted "fakes" or "cherry picking".
I mean alright, they're suicidal and there's no suicide prevention hotline that could save an entire country or a "nation" i dunno.
Giving them weapons or any form of aid is not an answer either, in fact i think it's a lot more cruel than whatever Russia's doing because it only extends their pain and suffering. Let ukraine die already.
>>2911354first result off google
crazy goalpost btw, when's the last time you've seen russians protesting anything?
>>2911359>last time you've seen russians protesting anythingRussians never protest because they know what's good for them. xaxaxa))))
Kill me plox.
>>2911359They are not protesting zelya's war, btw. They are protesting because federov promised them to replace soldiers for drones, and that would kill all the orcs without giving more ukrainian blood and zelya can't deliver that.
Surely federov will.
I think draft dodging up to even fleeing the country is pretty indicative of public sentiment towards Zelensky and/or the conflict.
>>2911375The 2025 ones? That was NABU-SAPO, literally pro and backed western-infiltrated institutions protests.
If anything, zelya was about to do the right thing for the wrong reasons.
>>2911359>first result off googleOk so where are the results of their protesting then? All i see on the pic is a fancy photo op. Zelensky is still in charge forced draft is still ongoing.
>>2911372>They are protesting because federov promised them to replace soldiers for drones, and that would kill all the orcs without giving more ukrainian blood and zelya can't deliver that.This, in that recent shootout between the SBU and the GUR it seems that public support was biased towards the latter, presumably (if I’m getting my acronyms correct) because the GUR as military intelligence predominantly plan suicide drone attacks, while the SBU as internal security probably gets associated with the ТЦК.
>>2911373> draft dodging up to even fleeing the country i'm sorry that i'm being an armchair revolutionary here but what they think doesn't matter if they don't act accordingly.
For every person that escapes there are hundreds who dont.
Let me do a strawman here:
>BUT THEY'RE VICTIMS, YOU'RE VICTIM BLAMINGthis take would nicely fit into the official ukrainian/european propaganda about evil bad russia attacking innocent ukrainian farmers who dindo nuffin.
According to Hitler, germans were also victims, in fact this whole mindset is what feeds chuddy narratives.
My point is that these ukrainians only escape ukraine not because they necessarily disagree with where their country is heading, but because they don't wish to bear responsibility. They still post on xitter under ukrainian flags about le ziggers except they do it from Poland or Germany. Tells you all you want to know about these refugees.
Also gotta add that while people on the left argue whether they should support Russia or Ukraine fucking AfD is winning elections in Germany and they openly say they are pro-Russia, want to drop sanctions and stuff.
I mean come on, these assholes don't give a shit about morals and all that crap they say whatever the fuck gives them points among the general public.
I say everyone should give up trying to convince Eastern European chuds let alone UKRAINIANS that Russia isn't their enemy - that region is pretty much lost, they're mentally cucked with right-wing propaganda and if nobody does anything the Germany will be lost then France and so on and so forth.
>>2911398the decline of the unipolar moment and the end of the end of history is the only thing that will convince or change them. East Euros are permanently trapped in a 1990s mindset where the goal of life and the road to salvation is being admitted into the West and getting a seat at the kids table of US empire. Hating Russia is required for entry and so is a necessary prerequisite for salvation.
US economic and military dominance is fading and to a large extent with Russia, Iran and elsewhere shown to be hollow and defeatable. Part of the unipolar mindset was the idea that the US were an overwhelming military force that would crush anyone defying them like they did Iraq or Afghanistan. Now they have been shown to not be able to defeat Russia, Iran or even Yemen, and are running out of weapons and can't produce more. Their economic power couldn't defeat Russia or Iran. This is why some places like Georgia refused to buckle. Europe is broke and out of weapons. They're heading toward collapse. The US can't impose its will as much as it used to. The spell of the end of history and Western dominance and exceptionalism is breaking and that's what will ultimately change the East Euros.
>>2911387Problem is, the GUR officials are the ones advocating for mass mobilizations.
See for instance chudanov:
>We must dare to say honestly: you cannot mobilise fewer than 30 thousand people a month. That is the minimum necessary to sustain what we have. (TWO WEEKS AGO)One could argue he's not GUR, but ex-GUR (LOL, LMAO, EVEN)
You also have, Valentyn Manko, commander of Assault Forces, said in late 2025 that fully manning all brigades would require up to 70,000 recruits a month. Though not GUR, it's a military officer.
You have also Oleksandr Pivnenko, National Guard commander, stating that "continuous mobilization is a necessary condition for holding the front and achieving victory" and noted that 70% of National Guard personnel arrived since 2022 through moblization, against a 20 to 30% through voluntary recruitment.
Meanwhile, from the SBU you have Nalyvaichenko (Valentyn Nalyvaichenko),
a guy, btw handed over the cia secret documents without "proper handling" (UA prosecution accusation, 2013 - yes under Yanukovich), in 2024 saying that washington needed to allow ukraine to use eestern weapons against targets inside Russian territory.
So I'd say there's no spat between the two about mobilizations.
The question would be, could federov plant dissidents inside the military forces?
>>2911404> East Euros are permanently trapped in a 1990s mindset where the goal of life and the road to salvation is being admitted into the West and getting a seat at the kids table of US empire. Hating Russia is required for entry and so is a necessary prerequisite for salvation.you're mistaking a cause for a symptom
>>2911415enlighten us without using a victim card
>>2911450all dislike for russia is a direct result of russian actions
and it certainly did not start in 1990s
>>2911415>>2911450>>2911462libs worshipping the west and hating russia was a thing in east euro before the 90s but it was a minority thing.
>>2911462You know it’s still a victim card just a rephrased one?
>>2911513ironically >we dindu, east euros hate us because west is a victim card
>>2911517it;s not
whataboutism passes blame by bringing up unrelated issue
<you're playing victim by bringing up our actions<you're full of aidsis an example of whataboutism
<you're playing victim by bringing up our actions<you're playing the victim by blaming the west for you actionsisn't
>>2911049Fair to whom? Ukranian porky wouldn't be screwed over, just the working class
>>2911534Yeah whatever Russian tv hosts are saying is an unrelated issue.
All you’re doing is switching the topic because the problem of the Eastern European victim complex and the fact that it is actively abused by the far right is a very inconvenient topic for you.
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