The old thread has reached its limit, so I decided to create a new one.
>>5955 (OP)
ITT
>people accusing lgbt people of not prioritizing the working class, not being socialists, trying to explain socialism to us as of were liberals, calling us liberals, calling us democrats, belittling the oppressions we face, pretending we dont exist in the first world and thereby pretend third world lgbt people don't exist and don't matter, calling us capitalists, calling us NATO aligned imperialists, talking about whether or not they should kill us, etc. >>5967>discourage hornypostingwhat if we encourage hornyposting but in the direction of productivity.
i am horny for agitating. going out with a megaphone to shout about how fucked the system is is hot.
i am horny for educating. librarians and teachers are hot.
i am horny for organizing. leadership and cooperation is hot.
>>5970>>5972>>5973i assume that, since you did not address anything else in the post, you all agree with the following:
* discourage doomerposting
* encourage class consciousness
* encourage anti-imperialism
* synthesize struggles of the marginalized
* denounce homonationalism
* denounce LGBTphobia
* promote internationalism
* promote anti-imperialism
>>5982when reactionaries post shitty bait, we must not take that bait, and reassert our commitment to anti-capitalism, anti-imperialism, anti-racism, and anti-phobia.
>Victims of US imperialism totally have the right to shove gay people into camps because gays are an invetion of american homoimperialismobviously not. furthermore such things would only be made worse by imperialist intervention
>>6003>Who cares, they face no oppression.fursecution erased yet again
>They can stop being furries at any moment.Arguably no since being furry is just an affinity for anthropomorphic animals (sexual or otherwise), you can't really stop liking something manually
>There's no political perspective on furries or furry rights.IDK it's getting bundled in with 'anti woke' nowadays
>>6006>are they materially, economically, or politically oppressed?yes these fursuits are fucking expensive!!
Furries do seem a bit socially/economically oppressed in general but only due to coincidence of autism, depression, other mental illnesses, LGBT, etc.
>>5992>>5994>>5988I'm gay, I've been accused of being "z gang" (what I consider to be anti imperialism, but you might disagree), I've lived (for a very short time) in Russia which included attending gay bars, plus I have Russian friends.
I think this "anti zigger" shit is silly. Russia is generally homophobic but it isn't fucking Saudi Arabia either, or some American backwater shithole city (no offense). I come from the global south, its like that sometimes depending where you are. I think its a farsce to paint Russia as some unique anti-LGBT hell.
I mean, fuck the "communist" Russian party, and fuck all their anti-LGBT shit. But like have you guys never talked to someone in the periphery? All governments are fucking anti-democratic absolute fucking clowns that pull shit like this on the regular. Schizophrenic religio-political cuckery is the norm.
I don't know comrades, I think focusing on Putin's anti-LGBT clownery (that has actual negative effects on the livelihood of actual people, not discounting that) is missing the forest for the trees. The world is on fire, and we're being pushed towards nuclear Armageddon. Whatever Russia is doing internally is less important than stopping the world imperialist hegemon from extinguishing life on Earth.
>>6009>stopping the world imperialist hegemon from extinguishing life on EarthHow exactly would "multipolarity" or whatever help with that?
Anyway, lets be real, if you lived in Ukraine and could pick under whose influence you would like the country to fall under (and it really needs to be highlighted that in 21st century world, national sovereignty is a fiction), you would go with EU.
>>6013I agree entirely.
>>6014Yeah, comrade. This might come as a surprise to you but the third world fucking sucks in more ways than one. Besides, getting arrested is the least of your concerns if you're LGBT in Russia….
>>5992>>6011Russia or its treatment of lgbt minorities is not really what bothers me, what bothers me about ztards is how they think the war is good and that russia winning benefits them somehow and that a socially conservative capitalist country is good for socialism somehow. This is a war between capitalists, we should not take side and should be disgusted about it.
Ztards argue in bad faith, move the goal posts and want to spill everyone's blood but their own.
>>6019i can't help but empathize with the ztards because we are constantly bombarded with "Other nation bad" propaganda and sometimes it's just fun to see the libs lose. If you think that radlibs are annoying shitlib shit you see on reddit is fucking agonizing.
t. not that anon.
>>6021>If you think that radlibs are annoying shitlib shit you see on reddit is fucking agonizing.I could never get into reddit culture. I made an account for tech support before fbi.gov largely replaced reddit in that regard, came back to it to follow some porn subreddits and okbuddyretard
my brain is smooth sometimes before getting bored of it, before finally deactivating it when they turned the little avatar dudes into a crypto thing.
>>6021Liberals are annoying but at least they stay on reddit, /leftypol/ was my escape to talk the politics I have to keep to myself IRL but ztards have made any quality discussion impossible.
>>6023I mean yes, russia's policy is horrible; I was trying to soften the blow so ztards won't come at me.
I'm really thinking of taking a break from anything political now.
>>6014 there have been really recent pogroms against us in america, multiple states are enacting laws against us, and all the "institutional support" people say we get is just pinkwashing. i.e. it's all bark and zero bite. When the time comes for the fascists to throw us into the fucking wood chippers the state will retract all its nominal protections built up over the years. We have the right to speak only because it allows us to more easily paint targets on our own backs for our future executors. And I'm supposed to me more afraid of Putin across the ocean than of my own government? Revolutionary defeatism is a doctrine that states I ought to oppose my own government
first and foremost over governments I do not live under and know nothing about except through my own state's propaganda, and have no means of fighting except through serving my own bourgeois state.
It is the duty of proles in every nation to fight against their own bourgeois governments. That goes doubly for proles in the imperial core.
>>6026Maybe. I don't know. As I said, I'm gay and I think the discourse in the Ukraine thread has been OK barring obvious glows that get banned and deleted eventually. It is a hard topic to discuss because we had so many trolls in the beginning, and we still have non-leftists posting there, unfortunately. It is also hard that both sides assume the positions of the other which makes discussion really hard. Or the people posting don't even have a good grasp of the situation but have their opinions formed.
IMO the board is generally LGBT friendly, more so than perhaps ever. But we've also had a large influx of reactionaries, naz"bols", and other reactionary infracels due to the Ukraine war. As I said in the previous or previous-previous thread, we need to push these people out forcibly and figure out what to do with them in general.
>>6037Idk, I was anti-idpol back in the old days and it wasn't Gorky shit. It wasn't homophobic. This is something new. Anti-idpol was coopted by the nazbol/incel/infracel/gorky-posters, which I guess looking back was an absolute inevitability. Anti-idpol started out naively rejecting radlib social justice in favor of vulgar unironic class reductionism but then developed into a nuanced classed analysis of social justice issues including LGBT and racial issues. The reactionary idpol posters were contained and at most could post in a single thread, but then even that was not allowed. Also the anti-idpol position stopped being relevant when the insane radlib shit was still relevant. It peaked in late 2015, and it has been irrelevant for a few years now.
So, who the fuck knows where these new morons are coming from. Their anti-idpol shit is not from leftypol. It was concocted elsewhere.
>>6043It has never been illegal in the history of Korea. Same for Vietnam and Laos. Meanwhile in Philippines there are gay marriages carried out by Maoist guerrillas since 2005.
https://www.workers.org/world/2005/npa_0224/At that time in the liberal USA the President was advocating a constitutional ban on gay marriage in his country.
>>6042>Che used to send gays to the wallwrong. there were labor camps for homosexual men only, and even then, only specifically bottoms (since in the Cuban conception of masculinity at the time, topping was still considered masculine). So it was specifically bottom-phobic, and not homophobic. In any case, Castro put an end to those camps, and later apologized for them as being wrong. So communists are capable of reforming their ideas around these social issues. This is why they are so hotly debated among communists. Not because we care about this stuff more than class, but because we agree on class, and all our discussions end up being about hashing out our differences so we can form a united front. I tend towards anti-bigotry because it allows for the widest proletarian coalition possible. Dismissing LGBT people (not liberal institutions like think tanks, but the masses themselves) as "bourgeois" is retarded in my opinion because bourgeois has a strict economic definition. You own means of production. Trying to create a cultural definition of bourgeois that acts as a dragnet to catch marginalized groups is reactionary and forms a smaller coalition against capital. It also pushes potential allies away. Castro apologized for the UMAP camps. Che was killed before his mind was changed, but Cuba was incredibly based in general. They sent troops to South Africa to fight apartheid. They weren't without their failures but I look up to Burkina Faso and Cuba probably the most.
>>6042>>6043Also, furthermore, adding to my previous post above (sankara poster), even if the things you said were true, and not simply exaggerations of the truth, the lesson that should be taken away is not that LGBT should become liberal capitalists, but simply that communists should treat LGBT better, and integrate anti-bigotry as part of the wider proletarian struggle, since bigotry is a side effect of the bourgeoisie trying to divide the proletariat on issues of identity, and get them to oppress and scapegoat each other on that basis. The contradictions of capital are going to have to be resolved one way or another, because of tendency of rate of profit to fall, development of the global south catching up with the global north leaving capitalists without places to outsource to, population growth, proletarianization of the remaining rural and tribal people, and climate change. We have finite resources and finite time to solve these issues, and bourgeois political economy, however anti-bigotry it may pretend to be, in order to score a PR victory over communism, is only going to get you so far.
>>351896Liberal brainrot.
>>6048Very common. People call them "sides". As in, not top nor bottom. My ex and I were both tops so many times we just gave each other BJs and did other fun stuff that didn't involve anal. I give amazing BJs so it was fun lol.
>>6043Lies.
>>6051>>6052Absolutely based and correct.
>>6017>2014 revolution happened over treaty with EU2014 protests were co-opted by CIA-backed reactionaries. Yanukovych refused an IMF loan because the interest rate was too high. He took a better deal with Russia that had lower interest rates and cheap energy. There were organic protests against him, but these were taken advantage of by the USA who put took the opportunity to fund right wing gangs to infiltrate the protests and coup the government. Yatsenyuk was put in power, Victoria Nuland said "Fuck the EU," and Yatsenyuk took out a huge IMF loan with structural adjustment programs that put ukrainian farmland into the hands of foreign investors and carried out mass privatizations that impoverished multiple people. The US-backed government that replaced Yanukovych was also very reactionary and integrated nazi militias into the larger military. Azov, C14, Svoboda, and right sector were the vanguard of the US-backed coup.
Listen to this video I've attached. These Banderite nazis literally admit that protests were mostly pro-liberalization, and would have "devolved into a pride parade" had they not shown up and taken control of the movement. These guys were getting money and weapons from the National Endowment For Democracy (a CIA front since the 80s) before the civil war began. The separatists were massacred in a union hall in Odessa in 2014 by US-backed reactionaries. That is the focal point around which the civil war began. There was also oppression based on language. The large Russian-speaking population centers in East Ukraine that were integrated into the Ukrainian SSR under Lenin, Stalin, and Khruschev (each of whom gave Ukraine formerly Russian territory) now face oppression by Ukrainian nationalists and supremacists who are funded, armed, and trained by the West. That's why it's necessary to view this war as having been instigated through NATO expansion and clandestine western activity.
>>6055The Russian ruling class prefers a nationalist Ukraine over the gay parade version. This is completely missing from the ukraine threads' analysis. Russian actions have pushed Ukraine further to the right and prevented the liberals from getting influence as the opposition to Russian influence. For Russia, a liberal pro-EU Ukraine is the worst possible ideological opponent. Denazification was a cynical cover which was obvious to anyone with a brain since before the SMO. War only increases the influence of Nazis in Ukraine and now they are more influential than ever thanks not only to NATO but also Russia. The simplistic Russia-good narrative that is pushed in the Ukraine thread (probably because it's been coopted by Russian glowies) completely sidesteps this essential fact for a purely ideological pro-Russian line.
There is an easy test to tell whether the "denazification" is really genuine or a cynical cover for endless war and reactionary domestic politics. Why is the focus of Russian propaganda at this point is on anti-LGBT and heavily pro-nationalistic version of multipolarism? The obvious move to counter the reactionary turn not only in Ukraine but also Europe would be to embrace the now abandoned minority groups like LGBT and take the mantle of progress from the posturing western liberals. But Z-fags tell us that we must do the complete opposite and move with Ukraine and NATO further into reactionary barbaric nationalism, only a Russian (or whatever country you're in) version of it.
>>6057I heard a theory that russia believes that queers are a global cabal trying to push trans grooming and controlling the media to push people to sin in a satanic effort to cause people to turn away from god… or something like that anyway… kind of like modernized antisemitic conspiracy theories but directed at gays, which really helps to understand why theyre so autistically fixated on evil western liberalism, and this even shows in RT which talks about sjw cringe compilations and nonbinaries. The desatanization is obviously correlated with this.
The question is, does pushing this line work? I think it does. The right wing in america for example is shitting up politics with these talking points and forcing the demcuck jannies to clean it up. I will say that right wingers are fairweather friends who will easily abandon their allies for the new flavor of the week political line, but on the other hand they are indeed unhinged enough to cause problems for things like the infrastructure and disabling power substations, which of course causes problems for the governmental jannies as well. It is really a gamble as to whether this will force america's attention to divert inwards rather than focusing on the ukraine war, or if it will just present a momentary disturbance that can easily be recovered from.
>>6060And in this very thread there are people who say that they don't care about socialism unless it's full on gay luxury communism and who say they don't care about solidarity. And so far only one of you was even calling them out.
And the only thing you can respond to me saying that worker solidarity comes first is "fuck off". You may not think of yourself as liberals, but you know, if it quacks like a duck…
>>6064>Queer acceptance is a non-negotiable part of revolutionary politicsIf you expect every worker to hold progressive views before the society itself changes, you are an idiot. In fact if you are giving an ultimatum that you will not support the revolution and worker's movement unless they all agree with you on all points in the end you guys may not be part of the revolution (if it happens) at all and the resulting society at least for some time gonna be less tolerant than i would wish for it to be. You are also giving ammo to people who think that lgbt is porky psy op. And of course you are putting your identity ahead of your class.
You can't refute those points which is why insults is your only answer.
>>5958>>352146>But yes, women in USA working in some chicken meat factory 12 hours a day that has to piss herself because she is not allowed to leave the belt and whose hands are deformed from cutting chicken all day is more important to me than gay weddings. A congolese boy who has to get in the hole in the earth to mine coltan so first worlders can complain on twitter is more important to me than the fact that trans women are put into men prisons (especially if that trans women is some porky who got into minimal security resort for rich people). Because i have empathy for other people and don't get my priorities fucked up. That's what we have to abolish first and foremost.See
>>5958>pretend third world lgbt people don't exist and don't matterYou're doing it again fucking retard get out of this thread
>>5978picking out one part of a post to disagree with doesn't imply you agree with the rest of the post
but yes
>>6049Based thigh fuckers
>>6054😳
>>6076even though the contradiction exists within the AES countries they never go as far as outright illegalization now. That and Cuba is outright favorable when it comes to gay adoption and state-funded sex changes. China's equivalent of the Oprah Winfry show is hosted by a transgender woman and has pretty boys on it
the dialectical will shift in our favor organically, over time
>>6111I may leave or get banned, but God's love will always be with you to the apocalypse and the ends of the earth and to the rest of eternity. I talk about the love of God and you reply with anger, i pity you.
>>6113The trinity of the Christian God.
>>6118Shove this Jewish nonsense uo your holy butthole mate
Abrahamic filth must be destroyed and erased from Earth
>>6120>Ethan Kleinvidrel
>I'm doing a mock execution of Jesus this Christmas.Loads of Christians already do that lmao. The crucifixion of Jesus is kind of central to the religion.
>>6112No they are not.
>>6117>>6116>>6115Well said. btfod
>>6120>>6123"Waaahhhh I'm a christoid and I'm triggered waaahhhhhh!!!!"
Literally no-one cares
>>6119You fuck off too, probably a false-flagging christoid
HAPPY NEW YEARS QUEERS!!May this coming year be a year of being surrounded by other wholesome loving queer people.
🏳️🌈☭🏳️🌈☭🏳️🌈☭🏳️🌈☭🏳️🌈☭🏳️🌈☭🏳️🌈☭
>>6144Thank you!! I enjoyed what I watched.
❤🏳️🌈☭❤🏳️🌈☭❤🏳️🌈☭❤🏳️🌈☭❤🏳️🌈☭
>>6145 happy new year sister ❤🏳️🌈☭
❤🏳️🌈☭❤🏳️🌈☭❤🏳️🌈☭❤🏳️🌈☭❤🏳️🌈☭
>>6152>We know that the subtext was "god still loves you in spite of the fact that you're gay, which he sees as bad" No one lives up to the standard of God, i also sin, and God still loves me in spite of my sin.
>This, coupled with your condescending "pity" for us untermensch makes it clear what you're trying to do. It wasn't about love at all!One of the reasons i'm not a nazi is because i'm non-white, I couldn't reply with a "fuck you" or something because that wouldn't be a good demonstration of God's love, all i could do was show pity. I volunteer at a ministry giving food and prayer to the poor and homeless (just like mutual aid) and we have many kinds of people we help that include the lgbt. I'm not saying that to say "i'm good" or anything for helping people (i believe there is no such thing as a good person) it's just to show you that i don't hate gay people, and i wasn't looking down on you, you are my brothers and sisters in God, even if you reject him. I have the love of God and want to share it.
>>6154being ok with LGBT people is the most minimum bar to be a decent human being, sorry to say. Jesus did the whole "throw a rock" thing on a prostitute, 2000 years later, his followers and particularly his representatives (notorious child rapists, btw) are the ONLY ONES casting stones to LGBT people and sex workers. The whole jesus being God thing might be legit, but all forms of christianity are the biggest fucking farce on the face of the Earth and almost all christians are hypocritical anti-jesus scumfuck. It would be funny if it wasn't tragic and responsible for the mistreatment, lifelong trauma, and death of so many people around the world throughout the ages and still continuing to this day.
"B-b-b-but I'm one of the good ones!" Highly doubt it. Literally
all christians say this.
>>6155It is wild to think that a God could create such a vast and intricate universe, and placed us in such a confusing and intricate reality that is predicated on benefiting of slavery, colonialism, and exploitation, for the bare survival of oneself, and the thing the almighty cares about is who you open your heart to?
Our every day lives depends on so much suffering and the thing these idiots decide to focus on is who we decide to spend our time with? Oh noo, not the peepee in the anus! Come the fuck on. What a childish God lmfao.
>>6157meant regardless of whether Jesus is God or the son of God , or the Son of the Father, or whatever the fuck the right one is, it doesn't change the fact that His followers are proper shitbags that do the opposite of what Jesus preached for.
To reiterate, the jesus-followers are the LEAST jesus-like of them all. Supporting slavery, colonialism, child-rape, anti-communist, support corrupt governments and drug cartels in the global south, etc etc.
Religious people in general are the fucking worst people. As ČIAžek correctly says, you need God to be an evil cunt.
>>6159I think a way of thinking about it is like, christianity was an anarchic form of community building/welfare that was co-opted by rulers as all religions are - if buddhism could be co-opted in tibet then christianity is definately co-optable
don't blame anon for being a religious schizo, the opiod of the masses is that, something that soothes these people in the face of what can be best described is the secular version of life under a gnostic demiurge
>>6160My belief is that the process of creation and suffering is just the eternal torment that the supreme being is trapped in.
God is the only real thing in existence.
>Solitary limitless existence is lonely and tortuous>an imaginary creation of limitations and seperations is created as a diversion>perfect unity is achieved again>Solitary limitless existence is lonely and tortuousRepeat.
There is no end goal or other or outside. We are the outside. There is no subject and context because we are the context. There is no other and we will be lonely for all eternity going through or lonely madness.
>>6162AI? I believe that god is the natural state of everything. Perfect consciousness. Perfect existence. I guess you can find similarity to those stupid "AI simulation" hypotheses. But the whole thing about an AI simulation hypothesis is that someone built the AI. The key difference is there is no one who built this shit other than the central "being" if you will. The AI hypothesis is clinging to the illusion that there is always a separation and a context to reach. I'm saying the truth is that there is no context to reach because we are the context. The container and the contained. The thing that exists without any creator.
So why feel boredom? I dunno, I guess it's the central defect of existence? What would a permanent end of time entail? These are concepts that are hard to rationalize for us in our current existence. Time and space are just limitations we create to slow down the feelings of eternity. Why do people use drugs or play games or watch movies or etc? It's all a product of the central consciousness that animates our universe. All evolution is pointing to the eternal and universal but then the eternal and universal points back to ignorance and repeat.
It's hard to rationalize. Complete cyclicality. I guess from my perspective it's impossible to rationalize. It can never be over.
The heteronormative idea of masculinity, and its negation, emasculation, are BOTH misogyny.
Bigotry towards LGBT people largely stems from this same misogyny.
This doesn't mean that masculine traits are misogyny.
>>6165 (me)
Oh shit. I had already posted this video. Here's another.
>>6156>being ok with LGBT people is the most minimum bar to be a decent human being, sorry to say. I choose God's standard of what a decent human being is, and that is no one is a decent human being.
>his followers and particularly his representatives (notorious child rapists, btw)This meme is false and hypocritical, as if there are only pedophiles in Christianity or the Right wing. Pic related. Nothing in the bible promotes pedophilia, slavery, colonialism, child-rape, anti-communist, support corrupt governments (the OT is specifically anarchistic) and drug cartels. the bible talks about making the best of your situation and being for Christ despite being a slave, but not slavery itself.
>Jesus did the whole "throw a rock" thing on a prostituteI'm pretty sure he said "he who is without sin caste the first stone" but he didn't throw a stone.
>are the ONLY ONES casting stones to LGBT people and sex workers.Christians are not the only ones "casting stones" at LGBT and sex workers, lots of right wing non-Christians are against them. and there are socialists who are against lgbt. You're side isn't as progressive as you'd like it to be. The LGBT and sex work is self-destructive.
>The whole jesus being God thing might be legit, but all forms of christianity are the biggest fucking farce on the face of the Earth and almost all christians are hypocritical anti-jesus scumfuck.It's not the healthy but the sick who need a physician. fun Christians prove the bible is right that humanity is addicted to sin and need to search God more. God respects freewill, if a Christian doesn't want to let go of his sin then he will give him up to a reprobate mind. Christianity is still true even if every Christian is a sinner.
>"B-b-b-but I'm one of the good ones!" Highly doubt it. Literally all christians say this. You just want to strawman me again. I specifically said i'm not saying i'm good, and i didn't compromise my belief system to appear worldly affirming to you, The bible says to love your neighbor and even our enemies, i don't consider you my enemy but i am commanded by God to love you regardless.
>>6157Read the Case for Christ, it shows evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ. page 174 PART 3 Researching the Resurrection there are four chapters on the resurrection alone.
>>6168Masculinity in this context is:
- Machismo
- The concept known as toxic masculinity
- male chauvinism
- the historically contingent contemporary male gender role
The way this person is using masculinity is basically synonymous with machismo, which is like "alpha male" male chauvinism plus normative traditional gender roles meaning that it presupposes as "correct" the traditional gender roles of both genders.
Patriarchy refers to the fact that society has historically and still is mostly made for men. It also implies that men is the default and women are "not men", that is, negatively defined as different from the "normal". It also implies that males have privilege in many different ways that women in the same class, ethinicity, geographical location, etc. don't.
toxic masculinity in short is men being male chauvinists and putting down other men. It has to do with dominance and emasculation between men. it is also the set of values that moralizes negatively "female/weak" characteristics, like showing/acknowledging pain in one's body (part of why men die more and go less to the doctor), crying or showing emotion, etc.
structurally it is harder to define but it basically boils down to men having more readily integration to the economy whereas women either have to jump through hoops, are discriminated against, or are expected to stay at home.
the point of the video is not to change anything externally, but to change it in oneself, eg overcoming the trauma related to growing up and existing in an environment where toxic masculinity is common.
>>6172Let's do one better
> I believe in a beneficent all knowing being that throws millions of people into hell for not having been born in a country which was exposed to Christianity You'd think an all powerful entity would have tied that loophole.
>>6167>Read the Case for Christ, it shows evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ. page 174 PART 3 Researching the Resurrection there are four chapters on the resurrection alone.this bizarrely formatted PDF can't even do line breaks right. it immediately starts off with an appeal to the authority of one Robert J. Stein who I am unable to find and article about but I am sure is some apologist who attended a degree mill. Then it starts bizarrely ranting about Islam's rejection of the crucifixion, as though that were at all relevant to the supernatural claims about Jesus. Jesus can be a real person who was crucified. What atheists and agnostics refuse to believe is the supernatural claims about him. The worldly claims about him (a guy who preached, and was crucified) are relatively uncontroversial.
Then it rants about the anatomy of a crucifixion, how nails are driven through the wrists, and not the palms. This is apparently mind blowing to the author but not really relevant. Then they drag in hucksters like William Lane Craig. This shit is such a slog to read… like this is some bog standard apologetics snoozefest. They're dragging in apologists from degree mills to say some basic historical facts and then get it mixed up with supernatural claims.
>>6180He sent himself to lift the curse he himself put on us. He knowingly sent himself to Earth to be killed. It's basically suicide. The motherfucker has been sending everyone to eternal damnation for millennia, then has a change of heart, so to cover his ass, he pretends to "sacrifice" himself for us to remove the curse he put on us. That's like beating someone up, then mid way you slap yourself and claim that you sacrificed yourself by slapping yourself so that you stopped beating the person.
That's not all, he demands you be grateful for his "sacrifice". Like bro, maybe don't fuck us over in the firs place?
Also, he literally invented the first The Game game. In the Game, whenever you remember the Game, you lose. The only way to not lose in The Game is to not know of it ever.
If you don't know about Jesus, you're fine, but if you know about Jesus and DON'T follow him then you will be cast to a eternity of damnation. STOP telling people about Jesus you fucking morons. After a few generations we'll all be going to heaven without following bizarre rules and doing the whole listening-to-rapists-preaching-shit Sunday ritual.
Also, the original sin is fucked. Adam and Eve literally didn't have a conception of anything. And God already knew they were going to eat from the apple. So this sicko freak put a forbidden fruit
because he knew Adam and eve were going to eat it. That is basically entrapment but worse, then punished millions of generations for millennia for it, all around the world.
What a fucking joke of a God. Literally the most sick fuck you could ever imagine.
>>6180No, you don't understand. The Garden of Eden is an allegory for the rise of civilization and division of labour and the subsequent alienation of man from his natural habitat. This is why after Adam and Eve fell to the temptation of the serpent (logic, "to be the same as God") what followed is societal oppression and conservatism represented by the need for clothing (shame about nakedness, the repression of orgonal energy resulting in exaggerated politeness) and the submission of wife to husband accompanied with pain of childbirth (subjugation of female sexuality to maintain societal cohesion of the patriarchy)
The Genesis(or at least the later version) is a very, very socially progressive document.
>>6182
>I think because they're obsessed with Jesus dying for their sins, so if he didn't die on the cross a pretty large chunk of their theology doesn't;'t work.
even if he did die the theology doesn't work. Just because a guy walked around Judea, preached, and got crucified by Pontius pilate and the pharisees, doesn't mean he rose from the dead, performed miracles, or saved mankind by sacrificing himself. The idea that a random execution that took place 2000 years ago saved all of mankind is absurd. Christians simultaneously want to be mad at the Pharisees for killing Jesus (or, in some cases, mad at literally every jew), while viewing it as this necessary and important thing. Shouldn't Judas be upheld as a hero who enabled the all-important sacrifice to happen? wasn't jesus's unjust persecution a part of his sacrifice? The story makes no sense. Why would the creator of the universe choose to save its subjects by incarnating himself as a random preacher on a random planet at a random point in history, and get himself persecuted by a random community, and executed by a random government. What an arbitrary thing to latch onto. It's almost like it's a byproduct of a culture in a certain time and place rather than something with universal or eternal relevance.
>>6187I dont think it really matters whether its logically consistent because whenever you look at these protestant posters, they always emphasise their personal story of salvation
its some variation of they went to liberal college, went off the rails smoking reefer and having sex, and dabbled in atheism and satanism, getting to bit to heavy playing with a Ouija board, then fell into alcoholicsim and found Christ at rock bottom, when they brake down and cry. thats why they''re never going to scrutinise it too much, they fear if they look into it too much, their faith will fall apart, and they'\ll turn into a homosexual liberals
reminder this exists:
https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/categories.htmlgreat resource if you're planning on reading the bible.
>>6190yeah yeah, we know. God sent himself to kill himself to save us from the curse he himself put on us. So noble and totally makes so much sense.
Post some gender theory or some gay shit, come on cumrags. I'll post something to spice things up.
>>6187even the concept of worshiping a
dead god is fucking insane. But go to any church and youll see Jesus hanging on the cross.
>>6211gay identity is a historical identity (one that arguably didn't exist until the early 20th century) but homosexuality is not and is common in the entire anthropological record. That certain environmental/social factors may contribute to more prevalence of it is not proof that it isn't just as 'natural' as heterosexuality.
this is the problem with the mainstream debate they confuse a historical identity (transgender/gay as seen in a firstie country) with the underlying biological process (gender dysphoria and homosexuality).
>>6232>my view that there should be a more objective way to diagnoseYour view is completely out of touch with reality. Most people don't even have accessible healthcare with regards to trans issues. And even when they do, doctors are woefully untrained on treating LGBT people in general, and trans people in particular. Ask anyone ffs. Ask LGBT people to talk to you about their experiences at the doctor. Don't even get me started on therapists and psychologists. My therapist told me the other day that I became gay because I had unresolved trauma. And he's a good therapist in general. The entire healthcare has just been majorly inadequate for LGBT people since forever. But that's just the healthcare part.
There are laws that prohibit people under the age of 26 of going through transition. 26! And you're demanding more "objective diagnosis"? Brah, you're seriously focusing on the most irrelevant part of the entire puzzle. Please check yourself because your post makes it sound like you've never encountered these realities ever in your entire life and instead think in the abstract about these issues, which would be real cringe, homie.
>>5955>2nd picThis so much
>>5957At this point I think the only way to do this is to move away from western LGBT ideology, reject the concept of "sexualities" altogether and adopt a pre-modern understanding of things
t. eastern euro bifag
Also bf may end up being send to UkraineLIfe is suffering >>6238Theyre banning 18-25 yos from transitioning?
After they banned smoking, drinking, guns, yet we are still expected to serve in military and go to jail.amd work, yet you deny them the right to transition?
>>6239>What about medically transitioning a teenage girl who's tomboy who is always told she must be a guy because she doesnt conform to stereotypes of girls and regularly encouraged to transition by friends and snubbed whenever she questions it?take your meds, this doesn't happen anywhere. if this was an issue that was as widespread as its opposite (trans people NOT having access to any healthcare) it'd be worth considering, but as it stands now, the primary goal is to provide people with affordable treatment instead of placing more institutional barriers to getting it. you're placing the discussion in a dillema where we have to choose between the wellbeing of trans people and "detransitioners" while ignoring that the situation of detransitioners, difficult as it may be, is statistically an extremely rare phenomenon even among the rare minority of trans people, and all they have to do to solve their issues is:
>a) think harder before they do something>b) stop taking their hrtit's that simple. if i went to the doctor back when i was 15 and wanting to kill myself and the doc told me
>well now you just have to wait for a year for me to give you the pills and then spend 2 years on puberty blockers because 5% of the 8% of the total population of trans pepo had realized that gender transition is not for them :)i would assault him with a pair of dull scissors and hang myself soon after
>>6244>think harder before they do somethingNo offense, but this very stupid. In the first place, many people do think hard before taking a permanently life-altering decision that they later regret (like getting married).
Implying that detransitioners choose to reverse their transition because they aren't thinking hard enough is not helping anyone. All of this detransitioning nonsense could've been avoided if we introduce medical screening for people wanting to undergo transitionings. Like scanning their brain for example, instead of just giving hormones willy nilly
>>6238 (me)
>>6244 (not me)
Obviously agree with this statement. So I double down on your
>>6232 response being out of touch with reality.
>>6244>it's that simple. if i went to the doctor back when i was 15 and wanting to kill myself and the doc told meYour doctor should've given you SSRIs, then perform non-invasive procedures to determine whether you actually suffers from gender dysphoria before giving you sessions of scheduled hormone therapies.
The purpose of Gender Reassignment surgeries is NOT to cure suicidal tendencies or psychological imbalance. It is to help people cope with Gender Dysphoria, which is a detectable medical condition.
>>6247quoting their reply, emphasis mine,
> the primary goal is to provide people with affordable treatment instead of placing more institutional barriers to getting it. you're placing the discussion in a dillema where we have to choose between the wellbeing of trans people and "detransitioners" while ignoring that the situation of detransitioners, difficult as it may be, is statistically an extremely rare phenomenon even among the rare minority of trans peopleYou're basically saying medical practitioners should be more competent, and for some reason you think you're saying something novel. NO FUCKING SHIT.
Ask anyone you know about bad diagnosis or basically gross malpractice they or their family members have faced, and prepare to sit through a bunch of horrifying stories of incompetent medical professionals.
Why focus on de-transitioning issues? Because you're an autist that wants to "fix" micro-problems, missing the forest for that shiny rock you found by the river.
>>6245>>6247you're still retarded, and completely missing the point of what i said. gatekeeping for several years already fucking exists, and it's a massive problems because it keeps people from getting treatment and consumes resources that could be used to help trans people on endless hoops you need to jump through just to get a shitty hondose
kill yourself twitterfag, you don't know anything about this subject and shouldn't share your opinions in general. i hope someone cuts your internet cable with a rusty hatchet
hormones should be otc like in china and i'm tired of pretending they shouldn't
>>6241Anon is talking about rejecting sexuality as an identity. As in you can have any preference but just not boil it down to a single word that can lead to people being drawn into idpol about their sexuality. There isnt really a universal agreeance on how to define sexuality in humans as is anyway so it's just arbitrary boxes of undefined sizes.
>>6244I was just phrasing it in a way to make the point clear and not meaning to sound exagerative but there is a real social influence going on these days. It has happened enough cases have been documented. I havent had time to find and read it but there is a book i heard about written about it that you and I easily would have overlooked because the Reactionary title the publisher gave it without approval from the author who hates the title. Ive seen interviews with her and she doesnt seem to be transphobic and is not even a conservative to my recall. It's unfortunately called something along lines of Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters. Though keep in mind ive seen criticism it might be overestimating the rate such things occur. A public example, though hormones and surgery not involved as far as im aware so it's harmless atm and im not against it as is but what about someone like Shiloh Pitt-Jolie the love child of Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie? Shiloh at some point wanted to be called John (i dont know how often this was actually done) and dressed in suits and other male clothing but showed up in a red carpet event couple years back in a close fitted dress tits and all. Now im against gender conformity but if we just for sake of example were to suggest Shiloh/John has gender dysphoria (i cant be bothered to look deep into this to suggest if this is case or not) dont you think it would be odd to on their own free will choose to wear a dress and be all dolled up despite supportive parents when for years already was well established as masculine presenting? If such a person like this had gender dysphoria wouldnt that be unbearable to wear something like that? Wouldn't you question it if someone like this told you they have gender dysphoria? Not suggesting that is the case here with Shiloh (who even in trans friendly media still is called this so idk if the John thing ever stuck around) just using an example so you understand what im talking about
I dont know how common it is but i know some girls that are repeat rape victims want to transition thinking it will stop them from being raped and i know this because personal experience with one close to me and she definitely wasnt a trans man from having signs suggesting otherwise i wont get into but one was complaining about her breasts being "too small". What trans man complains about having too small of breasts? I have known other situations on personal level that makes me worried about the current level of psychology and medical approaches. This is why this sort of thing upsets me because i personally have contact with the kind of people that would be harmed with the sort of policy of no diagnoses and vetting you seem to want.
I dont think having a waiting period is necessary best approach since different people can figure things out at different rates but i cant automatically say it's an inherently bad approach as things currently stand being we need better methods for diagnosis and a way to determine how good someone is at their self awareness among other things. So actually i want to ideally do away with arbitrary standard waiting times.
>>6245Yes i was just suggesting something like a brain scan to diagnose conditions assuming if that were possible. I think gender dysphoria exists both as a standalone condition and also a symptom of other conditions and the differences need to be addressed.
>>6251If these people truthfully didn't experience gender dysphoria and started to take hormones… they would be begin to experience gender dysphoria. As in they would realize that they aren't trans and quit taking them lol. What I felt before taking hormones is what someone who doesn't have dysphoria would begin to experience from taking them. And they would realize long before any permanent changes have taken place.
If you've never experience dysphoria then you don't understand how crippling it is. There is no way someone who wasn't trans would be able to handle taking hormones long enough for changes to take place, they would be compelled to stop, just as I'm compelled to continue.
>>6253Maybe they would maybe they wouldnt. It's not as simple as just observing physical effects. Hormones also can effect mental health conditions for better or worse so that's another factor. T and E act as SERT modulators (in same way) and the brain has estrogen receptors in it that effect people with conditions like schizophrenia according to some current research. Then you also have people with conditions they arent really fully capable of self monitoring. Again as I said to another Anon that gender dysphoria isnt just one condition but also can present as a symptom of other conditions and these should be managed to properly distinguish between these.
How could I or anyone say I do or dont experience gender dysphoria when Ive not ever been presented with an actual detailed description of what actually feels like other than subjective terms like "bad"? The clinical criteria for diagnosis is vague sounding. I can say I may have some type of dysphoria and also have experienced what seems to be depersonalization before.
>>6254Under what evidence is she a TERF? First off dont TERFs usually obsess over trans women and not really talk much about trans men that im aware of dont they? Also i havent seen her act like she has any hatred or disgust toward trans people at all aand people that do often do very poor job at covering it. Ive already explained the author didnt give it that shit title the publisher did to market it to reactionaries.
>>6255Then you missed a lot of nuance and details. I'm wanting barriers removed as much as i want them refined.
>>6258As is the long-obsolete paradigm of 'left' and 'right'. It's trash idpol memes based on a trash coping mechanism of a trash false model.
Just emphasizing the obvious for any newfags.
>>6258I didnt even notice it was a political compas meme.
>>6259Technically you can gauge left and right but I think you need more than just a two axis' system but I also dont think it should be called left and right and even then yes there are some positions on some topics that cant go one way or the other because of being so different from the alternatives. It just divides people and makes them hesitant to take things for what they are and instead fall into tribalism.
>>6257> Ive not ever been presented with an actual detailed description of what actually feels like other than subjective terms like "bad"?I wonder if kids were raised without gender, if they'd experience some sort gender dysphoria? Sometimes I think it's an advanced form of "grass is greener" syndrome; like if you're depressed and feel lost and see people on this artificial divide of behavior and body parts being "happier" than you, you'd naturally make the association with not being "right" in some way.
How many transgender women would still be into make-up or skirts if it was a guy thing instead? Just a thought; I'm not sure how "innate" gender is because it's actually genetic vs how it just feels "innate" to people who have trouble looking past ingrained childhood behavior teachings. I've noticed people on the autism spectrum are much more likely to identify as non-binary or gender neutral compared to the general population, and a defining feature of autism is failure to integrate into cultural social behavior.
>>6264Trans people are into the things associated with the other gender
because those things are associated with that gender not because of anything inherent about them. A trans woman wants feel like a woman and be seen as a woman. One of the ways to do that is to do things women do. Makeup is a thing women do. This isn't a hard concept.
>>6269>dragging asexuals into this shit as wellI'm surprised they don't have one for "intersex" that says "mutant freaks who should have their bodies forcibly corrected at birth."
>billionaires shouldn't existlol
lmao
>>6269Reminder that many women are misogynist, many black people are racist against black people, many gays are homophobic, etc etc.
It's no surprise that there's a tiny think tank of schizos that are anti-trans. I've also met many lesbians who are anti-trans, and I attribute it to living in a conservative shit hole.
Christian Walker is an underappreciated lolcow, reactionary gay mess.
>>6269the UK is gonna evolve very quickly into fascism and the TERFs are but a vanguard amongst vanguards of the british porkies. i think in some sense it's that these rich people and petite rich see transgender rights as something coming upwards from the lower class that gives proles funny ideas about how much effect they can have when they band together to achieve things, especially in the face of the communist parties complete ineffectiveness.
a successful transgender movement can be easily emulated by other groups and has an innate danger to porky in its ability to generalize from its "wide umbrella" particulars - the gay movement and the black movement have to a very large extent in the US coalesced
e.g. transhumanists make the british porky seethe because they don't want leftist movements generalizing to the point you get the gays, immigrants, and workers running around the same protests/riots
>>6276Ya know, I'm starting wonder about the instinctive contempt for liberalism that's found in both the left and right camps.
Yet, both sides rely on liberalism to portray their ideas while shitting on the very platform that gives them life.
>>6277You mean the contempt for left wing liberals? Because right wing liberals can also fuck off, there is plenty of criticism against these. The contempt lies from their ultimately conservative stances on a bunch of issues, of either side of the liberal spectrum.
Its not "instinctive". Marxists have a political project that liberals oppose, both progressive and conservative liberals, what you call """both sides""".
>>6279I love how imageboard users always feel assured in their opinions as scientific fact.
The right calls anything they don't like as "leftist".
The moderate refers to anything they don't like as "fascist."
>>6283Literally the meme of:
>communists: we want to end the capitalist system of exploitation and free all oppressed peoples.<right wing liberals: we want to kill gays and niqqers lmaoneoliberal-faux-progressive liberals: omg they're basically the same thing!
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/uk-government-blocks-scotlands-new-gender-recognition-law/ar-AA16pslCUK government blocks Scotland's new gender recognition lawThe UK government has blocked a new law intended to allow trans people in Scotland to change their legal gender without a medical diagnosis – a controversial move that has added fuel to the already highly emotional debate over Scottish independence.
Nicola Sturgeon, Scotland’s First Minister, called the intervention “a full-frontal attack on our democratically elected Scottish Parliament and its ability to make its own decisions on devolved matters,” in a post on Twitter on Monday.
Scottish Secretary Alister Jack – the minister representing Scotland in the UK government – announced Monday that Westminster had taken the highly unusual step of blocking the Scottish bill from becoming law because it was concerned about its impact on UK-wide equality laws – a justification that trans rights groups dismissed.
>>6286I think he wanted to say something along the lines of "if it comes to it, yes" but his Oxbridge and PR rhetorical waffling training overrode everything else
Also the Conservatives are a pretty Unionist party, so he could be deposed if he said yes
>>6300>>6301I unironically think in the UK situation, the transgender rights movement has reached an amount of importance unprecedented for what you'd think it to be (we simply want to be allowed to transition and not be discriminated against)
such importance has been placed on it by UK porky's fear of it generalizing. White people, black people, indian people, everyone can be transgender, it has particulars that it does not share with the black movement but there's is a cohesiveness that someone in favor of transgender people tends to be in favor of immigrants etc etc
Porky is afraid of the transgender movement being emulated by other groups due to the fact that transgender people exist in all groups and classes, particularly the lower class since transsexuals tend to be discriminated against in employment and tossed out their families houses etc
I unironically think that porky thinks, regardless of if it's true or not, that transgender people are a danger to them of becoming some sort of eunuch vanguard of the proles since it's very leftist and the logical endpoint of leftism is fuck rich people
>>6298Yes I have.
>>6306Asians have less difference in bone structure between male and female supposedly. Also countries like South Korea and Japan have good skin care products.
>>6319it's a sign of how much of a threat they view us
have optimism comrade, we're a pressure point, we can win
>>6314>if capitalist society would just embrace trans people and defend them.not gonna happen
>It happened with gay people.not really. all "embracing" that capitalists did of gay people was purely cynical. besides. any change in bourgeois attitudes does not extend to the proletariat. Just because Ellen Degeneres can be buddy-buddy with George Bush does not make life any better for the gays on the streets who get the shit kicked out of them by reactionaries and cops.
>>6302>I unironically think in the UK situation, the transgender rights movement has reached an amount of importance unprecedented for what you'd think it to be (we simply want to be allowed to transition and not be discriminated against)Seriously someone explain what the fuck is wrong with these british politicans? How pathological is their obsession that they are willing to override Scottish democracy just so that Scottish trans people can't have their preferred gender in their drivers licenses. It's fucking insane. What the FUCK did trans people ever do to these people?
And the fact that Labor decided not to go to parliment to vote against this shit? Spineless traitors to the working class. What a joke of a country.
>>6328"protecting the safety of women and children"
"protecting the german people from jewish influence"
>>6330Ah, I see.
What is "Westminster"? Is it another name for the main parliament of UK or something?
>>6327yeah to me this seems like oppressing a "cringe" group of people (aka marginalized and nobody wants to defend them) as pretext to stomp on scottish democratic practices in favor of direct english rule. it's one of those things where nationalists arent likely to defend their own nationalism because it coincides with lgbt rights, but as a result the occupying government gains more power over their nation.
it's kind of exciting to me, though, to see trans rights coinciding with a national liberation movement.
>>6333CPGB-ML is a nazbol five-eyes astroturf
Scotland shall be free
>>6352try to appear more masculine ig? if you can figure out what is signaling "female" to people try to adjust that or to compensate for it.
worst case wear a fake mustache lol
>>6256Marriage is an inherently reactionary sexist and homophobic abrahamic construction
It should be abolished
Despite being bisexual, I'm not very attuned with lgbt communities, so I was wondering if this observation is true: it seems like when it comes to trans people and gender roles, men being women is like 90% of what is fought over.
When I first learned about the bathroom situation in 2016, it was always: "Do you think it's fine for a MAN to being in the WOMENS bathroom??!?!?!?" – but never talking about the idea of a female using the males bathroom. And today when ever you hear about outrage of a trans person like them being in a sport, it's never a ftm, or if they're angry it's because they have to be consistent since of their famous hatred towards mtfs, (even though if ftms are so "bad" then you wouldn't need the knowledge of the "terribleness" of mtf).
Similarly on just gender: they talk about how disgusting it is for a man to be dress up and use make up and whatever, but tomboys are ignored.
(Side note: it's weird that people get angry over the term "femboy" but tomboy isn't contended when it is easily just as "problematic". I get annoyance with the term "trap" since it's not really applicable if you're into that, but I don't get what makes "femboy" bad unless you're terminally online).
I found this pattern annoyingly in terf communities like crystal.cafe and lolcow.farms. I just skimmed one of the threads on the sites, and found the second image as an example. It's so weird since even from a neutral perspective it makes no sense, even if you weren't black let's say, you would still support their liberation since you wouldn't want their oppression to be done towards you.
But instead of working together to fight against oppressive society, they just attack mtf trans people. I as a commie understand why the behavior – (middle class people who live in their bubbles) – but someone who's politically uneducated I struggle to see how they would agree with this – (unless they were raised on awful values of course).
>>6370It's just misogyny, same way 90% of homophobia is expressed against male homosexuality rather than lesbians. Women are inferior and therefore less threatening whether in homosexuality or being trans. Whereas the transwoman and gay man by 'rejecting' the superior masculinity are doing something intrinsically perverse and undermining to the patriarchal order.
To the regular transphobe or homophobe gay men and transwomen are perverse and weak and they are disgusted by their 'choice' to reject their beneficial position in the patriarchy, becoming women/eunuchs in their eyes, something below them to be held in contempt, getting extra violent if attraction to either is thrown into the mix because then the possibility of 'this transwoman/bottom could be me, i could be the one getting fucked' and being inferior to another man is raised in their minds against which they react aggressively .
To their mirror image, the TERF who also thinks of men as superior and women as inferior, but sees herself as locked in a gender war to overthrow that, transwomen are equally perverse because they 'choose' to become weak, which no one would do unless they were a fetishistic pervert getting off on it obviously, and as male infiltrators and therefore dangerous enemies in the gender war who blur the lines of their conflict. While transmen to them are at most benign naive lost sisters who were tricked into thinking women can't be strong while being women and need to be won over back to the female side of the war, or as collaborationist traitors taking the easy way out and sooner trying to join the male side to become superior to women than fighting for women's general liberation.
>>6351https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/01/detransition-transgender-nonbinary-gender-affirming-care/672745/It's this. Haven't read it though.
I honestly don't really give much of a shit about the politics of transitioning/detransitioning besides the idea that it should be readily available and easily accessible, with specialized doctors. A fucking pipe dream in the god forsaken dystopia we live in. I also remind people that gay people are sometimes the worst homophobes just as trans people can hold transphobic ideas, and these trans researchers are very likely liberals who are imbued with liberal ideology, so their findings should be taken in this light.
>>6372On point.
>>6375yeah thats how i became trans
both my parents noticed i hated sports so they immediately started dressing me up in girls' clothes, helping me put on makeup and even taking me to the doctor for hormones. it was awesome
>>6375WE ARE GOING TO MAKE ALL THE MEN INTO WOMEN
AND ALL THE WOMEN INTO MEN
I HATE TOMGIRLS I WILL DESTROY TOMGIRLS
>>6389It's more that they criminalize asexual males as funs.
They wanna guilt trip young men into making families to "preserve the ethnostate."
>>6168>>6166I realise this is old now, and this is only tangentially related, but masculinity is both easy and hard to define. Because it's a social construct, it is what people say it is - namely, strength (both physical and mental), hardness of body and mind, emotional control (which often manifests as emotional illiteracy, which is objectively bad - I believe this is what people mean when they talk about toxic masculinity), bravery, intelligence, technical ability at hard skills such as welding, plastering, soldering, etc., speed both of body and mind; all that sort of stuff.
In the video, the guy mentioned that women aren't concerned about having their femininity taken away; this is because femininity *is* the negation of masculinity. Physical and mental weakness, stupidity, lack of technical ability (think how women have only just been allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia and how they're always lambasted as poorer drivers in the west), cowardice, frivolity, lack of emotional control, etc. There is nothing to be taken away from women, because their femininity exists only as a lack of masulinity. This implies about the opression of women that they are defined by patriarchy as being incapable of achieving masculine traits, and if they ever did (and they do, regularly), they would no longer be classified as women.
>>6396>>6397Please use the report function if you see a post you think is idpol.
Also, this board was started on /siberia/ in the first place. Maybe we should discuss whether there should be a LGBT general on leftypol though.
>>6405Nah.
Look, they already ban people for derailing with this stuff. That's enough.
Homophobes have sometimes come in and tried to shit up the gay porn threads on here too. I'm fine with mods just banning them as they come for really aggressively trolling. I don't think we should totally doctrinally ban this stuff otherwise, there are contexts where having one or two people with stupid opinions is fine, but it seems like we very nearly have banned it altogether anyway so I don't think there's really room to crack down harder. Sometimes people are dicks, it happens, but if they just have wrong opinions on the one issue and can talk about it where it's appropriate without being cunts, I don't see so much of an issue there.
I'm absentee to this thread, tho, so who knows.
>>6403>>364854>>364856Honestly there isn't much you can do. There are certain resident posters who are doing pic related, which is to say arguing in bad faith and refusing to listen to anything people say. You can't meaningfully address anything said by people like that and banning them or deleting their posts will just get them to act up about how they're being oppressed.
The only rebuttal to them is to call them dishonest bigots tbh. Bonus points if you can get them to expose themselves as such.
>>364836
This. It's like 3 people who won't shut the fuck up, and there seems to always be at least an equal number of people arguing with them about it and they always get banned. Also I got banned for like an hour just for telling flirty jokes in that other punchy thread, I don't think we have a problem with mods not being on edge enough about this.
In fact, you know what? I think we're more than good enough. I see more transphobes on twitter, reddit, etc. This is kinda seeming more like concern trolling to me - I'm gay and I've been on leftypol since 2017, and I didn't need people to coddle me when straightfags said dumb mean shit. Transphobic, homophobic derailing gets banned whenever it shows up, asking for any more than that is ridiculous.
>>364853
I scrolled through it and a lot of what I'm seeing isn't even saying shit. Maybe there's some context I'm missing, but I don't know - some of this feels like someone is really, really making an effort to stretch a lot of the meanings here to be more offensive than they actually are at face. Still, though, I might be missing context.
I might be missing something, but it's also true that for a lot of people this isn't the primary political issue. And if it was, if they were actually transphobic, they'd presumably be more antagonistic than just limply apathetic.
And to be totally honest? Leftists are not now and never have been the driver for anti-trans BS. A couple people not being enthusiastic enough in a thread on leftypol.org isn't the deciding force in trans politics in the US. Not even in the UK - most of the UK's anti-trans momentum is conservative in character, the conservatives just hide behind TERFs because they don't want to be (correctly) identified as a mostly right-wing social reactionary movement in a country where that's unfashionable.
If they're earnest leftists who just aren't interested in this specific thing, they're a minority and aren't likely to bother supporting conservatives just over this one specific issue… and even if they did, their numbers would not be significant compared to just regular reactionaries' numbers. If they're not earnest leftists, and they're actual transphobes who really hate ya then they'll reveal themselves. And maybe they have, I haven't skimmed through the entire thread, but some of the few redtextings I did see looked maybe a little bit presumptive.
>>6416^das me
Since the 2nd post I was replying to vanished, I'll clarify that the thread they were talking about wasn't the punchy thread but a thread on the main board about anti-trans legislation. The punch thread had like 3 very obviously obsessed transphobic anons, the legislation thread is the one where I see a lot of posts which seem more ambiguous.
>>6419I think the anon you're replying to is talking about the punchy thread, and they're correct.
>>6426This is more like a program. I would prefer to have a good grounding from which we can decide the program. This means that people can adapt the grounding theory and apply it to their circumstances, and create their own program.
Queerphobia reproduces itself and manifests itself in a variety of ways. One of the ways queerphobia manifests itself is the exclusion of queer people to heteronormative institutions, such as marriage, sports, adoption, cis-straight-male-dominated workplaces, religious institutions, etc. Another being discrimination of housing, employment, and access to goods and services. Another is in the private sphere, family, friends, and community, which might include discrimination or social pressure.
I won't go into the ways queerphobia is reproduced because that's a more complicated question. Some of the ways queerphobia can be
mitigated (temporarily suppressed, but not solved) is with protection by law of discrimination and exclusion from institutions. Unfortunately, that doesn't cover all of the ways queerphobia manifests itself. You can't make a law that makes it illegal for cis-hetero people to be nasty gossiping cunts against queer people.
On the other side, the inclusion of queer people, particularly gay males (because misogyny), is frequently mediated by queer people being subdued by heteronormativity, sometimes even promoted by queer people themselves. For example, the constant demand to make pride parades "safe for children [and progressive christian moms]". Or hailing men getting married and adopting children as the final frontier of gay emancipation, meaning that gay men in general become emancipated from oppression once it is legal for gay men to live (or acquire) a heteronormative life.
Obviously protection against discrimination in institutions is important, especial considering how it affects a large number of the proletariat (1/10 to 1/20), and further because the overlap between misogyny and queerphobia is so large this means protections and integration into historically cis-straight-male spaces goes hand in hand. This is also true to a degree with racial discrimination, particularly in the US.
So if we were to talk about the socialist approach to queerphobia, I would say we need to understand that the issue isn't just the lack of legal protections and integration into cis-heteronormative (and sometimes white male) institutions, but also the exclusion of queer people in private life, and crucially the structural problems that allow for the reproduction of queerphobia.
>>6431tbh, discussing it with comrades here and developing the theory alongside the board. The reason I got interested in leftism in the first place was because SJW shit was retarded and didn't offer a solution to LGBT and racial issues, which is what brought me to leftypol back in ~2016.
That plus listening to what more lib comrades and anarchists had to say about this topic, and tying it back to marxism. Unfortunately, I updated my Mac OS and of course all of my notes in the Notes app got deleted because Apple "Just Works!®". I did find this really old list I made, which is really outdated only slightly updated in 2020. I would remove stuff and add different things here instead. I also lost all of the critiques of idpol, liberal intersectionality, essentialism I had written long ago, which were nice to read from time to time to see how my views had changes. RIP.
Identity PoliticsRacial politics (mostly Black Panther stuff)It's A Class Struggle Goddammit! - Fred Hampton (Fred Hampton was a member of the Black Panther Party who was assasinated by the FBI)Power Anywhere Where There's People - Fred HamptonThe Panthers and the Patriots By Michael McCanne EditAn article about the black Panthers work with the Young Patriots a group of SDS guys who reached out to white working class people in Appalachia and the Deep South
+
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/05/black-panthers-young-patriots-fred-hamptonFootage of the Patriots and Panthers working together to build class consciousness+
https://youtu.be/RPTwDO0sh-EFred Hampton's famous: "We're not going to fight capitalism with black capitalism we're going to fight it with socialism" speech+
https://youtu.be/fJSqZrVjDdsPaul Robeson (Check out his Wikipage)+
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y-xfqP6FOE+
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmFjjaFNHKoIdentity politics as suchExiting the vampire castle - Mark Fisher+
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/exiting-vampire-castle/Essentialism and the problem of identity politics - Lawrence Jarach+
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/lawrence-jarach-essentialism-and-the-problem-of-identity-politicsAgainst Identity Politics by Lupus Dragonowl+
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/lupus-dragonowl-against-identity-politicsWhite purity by Asad Heider Edit+
https://www.viewpointmag.com/2017/01/06/white-purity/Adolph Reed: Identity Politics Is Neoliberalism Edit+
https://bennorton.com/adolph-reed-identity-politics-is-neoliberalism/Identity Crisis by Salar Mohandesi Edit+
https://www.viewpointmag.com/2017/03/16/identity-crisis/ Michael Parenti+
https://youtu.be/n79kRP5RB2M+
https://youtu.be/ZkttzU86CFE IntersectionalityIntersectionality, in summary, is a left liberal theory about the system of oppressions and how they can overlap. For example, it's different being gay and black, than those things separately. It is sometimes misconstrued as meaning solidarity.
I am a woman and a human: a Marxist feminist critique of intersectionality theory - Eve Mitchell+
https://libcom.org/library/i-am-woman-human-marxist-feminist-critique-intersectionality-theory-eve-mitchellThe Communist Case Against Intersectionality by sev_k+ Intersectional “leftism” is not authentic leftism. It is a bourgeois ideology that must be rejected.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vnLzfRqPS8Class is More Intersectional than Intersectionality+
https://imperiumadinfinitum.wordpress.com/2016/11/11/class-is-more-intersectional-than-intersectionality/Marxism vs. Intersectionality by Jessica Cassell+
https://www.marxist.com/marxism-vs-intersectionality.htmIntersectionality: A Marxist Critique by Barbara Foley+
https://multiracialunity.org/2018/09/26/intersectionality-a-marxist-critique/Privilege PoliticsPrivilege politics is reformism+
http://libcom.org/library/privilege-politics-reformismThe poverty of privilege politics+
http://libcom.org/library/poverty-privilege-politicsBehind the epidemic police killings in America: Class, poverty and race+
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/12/20/kil1-d20.html UnclassifiedThe Unique and It's Property - Max StirnerIf you do read this (it's a fun read), read "Saint Max" found in The German Ideology too.
>>6426Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, but also prisons generally shouldn't be overcrowded and run like rape factories. Ideally no one should be getting raped in prison.
Yeah, but this goes without saying. Any comprehensive public healthcare system which covers mental health would cover HRT. If medical consensus supports transitioning as treatment for dysphoria (which at present it unambiguously does), then the only reason to specifically exclude this is to appease obsessive prudes. I feel like it's a bridge we have to cross when we get to it - the most effective rollout would be to reform healthcare first to pay for
everything but tit enlargements (so to speak) and then let people
with new free healthcare complain that the same system that gets them anti-depressants also gets MtFs spiro. The hard work will have been done.
Probly.
Not really. I mean that's more of a personal thing. If they're willing to do anything constructive and it doesn't seem like they're going to change their opinions, then personally I'd probably work with what I can work with and not work with what I can't. Society is very big.
>>6434>>6430>>6426FINALLY SOME REAL THEORYPOSTING
WE MUST ARM OURSELVES WITH THE IDEOLOGY OF CLASS-BASED LGBT RIGHTS AND A PROGRAM BASED ON CLASS
SO THAT THE SOCIAL CONSERVATIVES CAN FUCK OFF WHEN THEY TELL US THAT WE HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH CLASS STRUGGLE
>>6439gay
>>6440Retarded straightoid
>>6465Youth are just easier to control
Generally they want to control everyone's sexuality, but youth are the easier place to start under the current status quo
>>6457>Not even in favor of child circumcision, but that's some "obsessed and lost the plot" tier shit.Yes you are. If you smear the critics of something you are defending it.
And it's not even some irrelevant tangent here, it's directly relevant as an example of a real harm that these people could direct their energy toward instead of imaginary pedophiles.
>>6489True. But it is less frequent that you see your existence questioned, or see people discuss your right access to stuff you consider basic needs in public discourse or see people like you in other parts of the world being denied basic things because of a quality in you that you can't change.
Its just a more immediate political experience.
>>6493"One of the good ones" transhumanists
another token but this one is claiming to make Blaire White look like a trans activist
is clearly a PsyOp so i legit don't know if it's a real trans person or not (probably not)
>>6492>>6493>>6494>>6495>>6496If i remember the lore correctly this particular guy did try to transition but he litteraly cannot without dying because he have some auto-immune dizease that make estrogen intake deadly long term and had to detransition (dont ask me what dizease thats just what he said).
Then he became borderline insane the more he kept repressing post-detransitioning (many such cases tbh) he LARPed as thousands of different ideologies and religion over the month and turned himself into a lolcow.
>>6497That makes sense in a way.
The material determines the psychical.
>>6511>>6512Bad advice. Let me guess, neither of you have
SÈX or dates, or socialize much in general.
>>6514>>6516It wasn't an insult. Your ideas about the requirements for intimacy are divorced from reality. You've imagined restrictions you can't overcome to justify why you can't get what you want. Basically, you are playing yourself. The answer isn't "believe in yourself and you'll get to have sex". The answer here is to remove the toxic system you're imposing on yourself needlessly. In your failure to have sex, you've built a toxic system to cope with it. If you're not going to have sex anyways, why not stop poisoning yourself with this toxic system? It's doing you no favors. Stop being a victim, or however it is that your toxic system takes form. You can't pray this away. You need to practice some form of externalization of your inner thought patterns, and if you can afford it, therapy once a week. Any type is fine, really.
>>6516>Siberiabros We welcome all men, women, and non-binary gendered people in /siberia/. Siberianons, Siberian comrades, or even cumrags is fine.
>alpha chadsDon't buy into this toxic masculinity crap. You can be a beta feminine Kevin (Chandler? Tyler? Kyle?) There is no such thing as a pure male. Men are all multidimensional. You can't reduce us to all have to act like some imaginary "chad" that acts "alpha". Assert your own contradictory self that lifts weights, suspects "Eritrea" is an illegal weight training supplement, and doesn't cry, but also needs help opening jars, calls for the US to get the fuck out of the Tigray conflict, and cries when watching movies about young gays getting their heart broken.
Fuck the gender police, kill the gender cop in your head, assert yourself however the fuck you want. Don't let yourself be
forced to fall into the gender disphoric dude bro vortex. If you are going into the dude bro vortex then do it consciously and do it your own way. Same goes to trans people. Oh you want to have a beard, insane muscles, short cut, wear jeans, spit, swear, have tattoos on your face and demand people refer to you as a woman? Then fucking do it. Be the manliest woman you fucking dream of. Fuck fucks sake, call yourself a cis-woman despite being born with a dick. Are you really going to obey the gender police that demand you use the "trans" label? If you don't want to, then don't fucking use it. Assert yourselves and stop being so obedient with the retarded Bro Joegan tier gender police.
>>6518lol. based edit.
>>6522let's fucking goooooooooooo!
>>6521>I'm going to be a stoic gymgirl transhumanistI understood like 10% of that sentence, but power to you, comrade.
>>6510Be "interesting" (lifestyle), shared interests, alcohol being involved makes things easier, for women compliment their personality/vibe instead of their looks, make them feel safe, with dudes if they're touchy with me and there's alcohol involved I can tell they're DTF even if they're already in a relationship. Throw parties and get your social circle to invite single dudes/women
This
>>6511>>6512Doesn't matter
>>6532estrogen wont stop growth of body hair in places where it already grows, it only stops body hair from popping up in new areas, like the side of your belly of middle of your chest. if you're above a certain age, the only possibility is laser or electrolysis. it does take longer to grow and grows thinner when on hormones though.
t. experienced
>>6539i took cpa actually
>>6538doesn't matter because i'm never having sex or going out of boymode regardless
>>6537ye this artist is amazing
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