No.2654[Last 50 Posts]
When I was a wee lad I read Katawa Shoujo and ended up really liking Emi. She hit all the right spots for me personality wise. I finished her route with the impression that she was supposed to be the token tomboy among the main girls. To my astonishment, when I went on the Katawa Shoujo forum I found out that other people did not consider her a tomboy. How? She's the athletic, bold, energetic girl who likes to play rough. Did I not just describe a tomboy? Is it because she doesn't "look" like a tomboy? Ridiculous. It was as if at some point I had been transported to bizarro world where the word tomboy had been hijacked by pathetic fetishists who now tied the word tomboy to physical appearance.
As the years went by I found myself highly attracted to 2D girls with varying types of what are culturally seen as masculine qualities. Like the aforementioned athletic, bold, energetic, likes to play rough but also aggressive, assertive, emotionally reserved, brash, vulgar, messy, short-tempered, rhetorical, analytical, philosophical, gluttonous, as lustful as a man and so on. In other words, women who behave like the worst and best of male cultural stereotypes. Do they "look" like tomboys? Some do. But even then I have nothing in common with the pathetic fetishists, the most egregious and possibly loudest of which circlejerk over 2D girls who only "look" like tomboys and otherwise do not deviate much from the assumed average girl who on top of that unironically fantasize about turning said "tomboy" into a traditional 1950s cooking, breeding and raising servant (read: wife).
Don't believe me? Give a definition for the word tomboy. Then objectively think of all the fictional girls who come to your mind that fit that definition. How many have you never thought of as tomboys?
It's not just the word tomboy that is being systematically destroyed by pathetic fetishists. The word gyaru did not simply refer to physical appearance alone, but a whole subculture. To be a gyaru it's not enough to dress the part, you also have to act the part else you're a poser right? That's how subcultures work. Gals are stereotypically vain, airheaded, trendy, extroverted, socially intelligent, gold diggers, Americaboos and so on. Today? Shy gyaru. Awkward gyaru. Recluse gyaru. Tomboy gyaru. Normal girl gyaru. Otaku gyaru. Of course a character turning out to be different from expectation is funny on the occasion, but when every gyaru is effectively a poser gyaru that's when you start getting mad. Hell, I've seen people start calling characters "gyaru" for simply having a shallow physical resemblance to gals (makeup, dark skin, blonde or pink hair, etc.) which is the very height of this fetish madness.
As the capitalist world crumbles, as escapism rapidly turns into fetishism, as words become nothing more than visual pornographic descriptors, voices like mine will remain to scream and shout at the dying light.
Congratulations, you've discovered the consumerist waifuism that has been a staple of weebs for at least a decade.
I don't think it's correct to say I've discovered it just now, I just never articulated it this thoroughly. Katawa Shoujo came out in 2012 after all.
Is this a copypasta? "Tomboy" is just an umbrella term. In Japan, it means a girl who is brash and noisy, so even the Japanese will not consider if a character is a tomboy like you do.
you're entitled to an opinion, but you sound as much a fetishist as the ones you criticized
Tomboy as a definition is a girl who behaves like a boy. Toph Bei Fong is an example of a tomboy character.
Yes, although it's strange that she hangs out with girls all day.
There is a distinction between liking girls with stereotypical male qualities and being obsessed over "tomboys". I don't post in "tomboy" threads on 4chan circlejerking with my reactionary buddies how I want to turn a "tomboy" into a traditional housewife.
>>2678>"tomboy" threads on 4chan circlejerking with my reactionary buddies how I want to turn a "tomboy" into a traditional housewife.
Golly I've this pal of mine that's all about this stupid shit via secondhand 4chan through Insta.
"uHhHH uhhh I wanna biG MOMMY MILKY TOMBOY GF at the GYM bro,
because girly girls aren't for me yaeah I prefer her to act more MANLY (uhh but not in a gay way though).
BUT SHE HAS TO BE SUBMISSIVE IN BED THOUGH.
Also I wanna IMPREGNATE her with my SEED to carry on the race.
And she'd better have long hair."
This recent fetishistic conception of "tomboyism" has lost quite literally all of its meaning,
this sublimely fetishistic object of absolute desire no longer bears any semblance of resemblance to neither the physical traits nor the characteristic traits of what one would consider to be a "tomboy."
A bigtiddy girl who acts otherwise girly but stays in shape and goes to the gym is just that, a bigtiddy girl who acts otherwise girly but stays in shape and goes to the gym.
I think its a side effect of these things being reinforced by online echo chambers instead of actual reality. Instead of the fetishes being tempered by encounters with real people we instead of them being reinforced with other peoples fetishistic ramblings which causes them to further degenerate into a version that is further and further divorced from reality.
I don't think it necessarily has to do with sexual fetishism. It became a fad and like everything that becomes a fad it has been reduced to its most superficial qualities. In reality "tomboy" is a broad idea with many potential variations but for the sake of marketing there must be an easily applied "stock tomboy" formula. All the same, this formula can't be too different from standard tastes or it becomes too niche and thus sells less. Because of this the "tomboy" becomes just another way to dress up the generic female character, and must not deviate from the standard functions that character is expected to serve even if the appeal of the trope lies precisely in those deviations. The end result is characters who look like tomboys but cannot act too much like tomboys.
Finally, people like us who want purer forms of the content have it increasingly hard because it gets buried under an avalanche of fakes.
That said >>2692>because girly girls aren't for me yaeah I prefer her to act more MANLY (uhh but not in a gay way though).
BUT SHE HAS TO BE SUBMISSIVE IN BED THOUGH.
I defend this. You can't control what your penis wants, it's independent from your romantic desires. In fact, isn't that part of the point of this thread? The character archetype should be separated from its sexual implications, or it just becomes another fetish.
Your friend still sounds like an autist though, who posts shit like this on Instagram? No offense.
Yeah I too am similarly guilty of liking big tits on tomboys but to be fair I don't associate big tits with tomboys like those people I just like big tits in general and I assume the same is for you, you don't associate tomboys with sexual submissiveness but rather you like sexual submissiveness in general which I think would exclude us from the kind of people that anon was talking about who specifically associate "tomboys" with these things.>>2690
I haven't watched her anime but from the wikia description I read, yes.
I have a friend who would never in a million years touch a tomboy with a ten feet pole yet his self-proclaimed waifu is Kyoko Kirigiri; my friend has a fetish (in the true sense of the word) for long hair. My friend fell into the similar trap as described in the OP but coming from the non-tomboy fetishism direction, "I like long hair and I don't like tomboys and long hair does not belong on a tomboy ergo Kyoko Kirigiri is not a tomboy." Let's examine the character of Kyoko Kirigiri.
Kyoko Kirigiri comes from a lineage of legendary detectives with a strict tradition. Her father refused to become a detective and was disowned by the family. Her mother died when she was young. She was raised by her grandfather who from her earliest days trained her to become a detective because he desired a successor which his son was not. He was very strict with her, keeping her socially sheltered, and as a result Kyoko became antisocial. He raised her to believe that her only worth was as a detective which caused her identity issues. So already at the start we have the trope of the (strict) father (or grandfather in this case) who treats his (grand)daughter as his (grand)son to compensate for the lack of a (worthy) (grand)son.
Kyoko is assertive, analytical, bold, emotionally reserved, antisocial and confused about her identity (the conflict between the metaphorically male way of life imposed on her vs her female self who is the spawn of a failed man).
About the only girly thing about Kyoko, ignoring her appearance, is that she has the old-fashioned preference for men doing physical work. That's it.
Tomboy, if we are not referring to some shallow usage? Absolutely.
>>2698>Your friend still sounds like an autist though, who posts shit like this on Instagram? No offense.
He doesn't post the stuff, he's just into accounts like 'fit_memes_and_greentexts' and 'barbells_and_anime_milkers,' and he'll share me shit like picsrel in dms.
And he'll also say shit like that irl.
AND he'll also unironically, wholly seriously say shit like "I want to have back muscles like baki's dad's bro."
Really shows me that the raw ideology of 4chan proliferates in its undiluted form with no need for someone to even touch the site.
But that's a bit of vent
These images make me want to vomit.
Reminder that being dorky/awkward is not something expected of men. I have no idea how dorky/awkward tomboys became a thing.
In what universe is being spergy a masculine quality? Not that it's a feminine quality either (but of course it's more tolerated in women). It's "third gender" material. Tomboys aren't girls who act like this hypothetical "third gender".
…dude, have you been on any corner of the internet that isn't a chan board lately?
where do you think that SMOL BEAN CINNAMON ROLL UWU shit comes from
Nowadays """tomboy""" = random anime girl with short hair.
People have types, anon.
Overbearingly heavy interest in niche things is a masculine interest which is also spergy but its not fetishised remotely.
Well that wasn't the way I was using spergy, more in the "mom's spaghetti" sense (awkward/dorky as mentioned).
Unrelated, have another tomboy that is never called one: Shirase Sakuya from Idolmaster. If you google "Shirase Sakuya tomboy" you will find precisely zero results.
>>2852>Shirase Sakuya tomboy
Huh… I tried that and its true sorta.
The only character listed as tomboy on TVTropes was Juri Saijo
No, go back to the Yuri thread you horny bitch
Excellent effortpost, we should strive to make all character more than cardboard cutouts of the trope they represent.
I imagine if she was a character in a shoujo yuri romance she would be the assertive reverse trap with a prince-like charm.>>2856
See, she counts as a tomboy but Shirase doesn't? Is it literally because one has short hair and the other doesn't like in the OP? That's insultingly superficial.
Those images >>2702
make me want to coom
It's pretty obvious, The Yuri-fag looking for Yuri in a relatively straight Tomboy thread ought to go back to their Yuri thread… that's pretty obvious yes?
and what's your shitty tired archetype of choice anon?
I always thought that tomboy had an association with being particularly sporty though? At least most tomboys in the west were generally speaking into sports in some capacity.
If there is one trope that I hate is making generally thin characters fatter.
No Patrick, Mayonnaise is not a tomboy
Horseradish is also not a tomboy either
>When I was a [b]wee lad[/b] I read Katawa Shoujo
I was 26 when that shit came out. The world hasn't been "normal" since 2000 everyhing has been devoid of meaning, substance, and honesty for 20 years. Zoomers grew up in the worst time and I regret that has happened, all you guys know is shit.
jfc I need to die.
>>4304>The world hasn't been "normal" since 2000
Fuck off, Shit in the 90s and 2000s was fucking great compared the past decade of sheer faggotry.
>>4304>35 y.o. boomer
Are you Jerma?
oh no that sucks
Speaking of Gyaru, thread >>639
No, she is just extroverted and unaware of her surroundings. Tard confidence/charm if you will
Because I like this thread
Is there any character archetype theory I could read that's a bit more serious than TVTropes? I find this sort of stuff fascinating
>>8187While that woman is overly sexualized, I'd say she's still kind of a tomboy because she seems to act and dress like a guy except for the sexy top. So Coomer's kinda right.
Coomer's friend is pretty hot, he reminds me of Kaneoya Sachiko's guy(s).
>>8187> Boobs too big
That's not Cockshott by there.bolshevikBolshevik
Been Wo jackin it looks like lol
Being passionate about physical activity isn't really being a tomboy. She didn't come off like a tomboy to me
God, I hate this new fad of "big milker lifter tomboy for trad men". It seems like they didn't like the original tradwife thing because it was too "unreachable", so they butchered another concept so they could have something to circlejerk and fantasize about.
That account is the one I hate the most, though. It feels like watching Japanese host TV; an overdose of visual and written stimulus, begging you to get engaged and to do what the account wants you to do.
Do they lace their posts with some new virtual drug or something? Wait, that drug is called hornyness. I could keep venting about how much I hate this surface-level "tomboy" fad, but I'd prefer to prevent other character types from becoming fads, like the "introverted aspie girl" that seems to be gaining traction thanks to those Youtube meme comps.>>2693
basically this. the worst part is that some women are also playing on these online-fueled shallow fetishes, so it gives the new hoards of newcorners "hope", only spreading this shit even further. I like manly girls and lifting, but I despise this nu-tomboy and /fit/ culture mix.yugoslaviaYugoslavia
based. Most artists that draw tomboys nowadays seem to only do it to get attention, and well, the only kind of tomboy people seem to know is the one that is being beaten like a dead horse, like >>2702
. The worst part is that this isn't just an anglo-exclusive fad, as it's rapidly spreading into the third world, and you know how easy (reactionary) third worlders will swallow whatever trend comes from the US and then beat it even more. Also, more cumbrain and thought-dead reactionary Latino shad clones will appear to join the fad, looking for those sweet reactions and anglo fame.
One used to have a type thanks to the people you had met and the experiences you had with them, nowadays most teens (and not so teens) seem to get their types from internet overdose, going from a gold rush into another gold rush. What will happen when these "(nu)tomboy"/"catboy"/"egirl"/"tradwife"/whatever fads die? Will they develop actual tastes and likes, or will they just join another circlejerk that inundates the rest of the internet?yugoslaviaYugoslavia
Based anon, I totally agree with you. I feel that Latin American artists also eat the scraps of Anglo internet fads because it's profitable, whether they do it consciously or not.
Also, aren't tomboys supposed to be girls who do things or have a personality that is unexpected of girls, including an aversion or disinterest in romance. The appeal used to be that they're "not like the other girls", so why would a fit girl with massive, partially exposed tits who is willing to become a sweet tradwife to the first coomer that crosses their path be a tomboy? Jesus, the tits alone are a massive contradiction, because it's obvious that such feminine body is the main appeal to these people, not the boyishness. So, ok, you like fit girls who are feminine on the inside, and that's all you need to fall in love with such a character. But that's like the opposite of a tomboy, who by definition must be masculine on the inside.>>2779>its not fetishised remotely.
Besides what should be the well-known fact that everything and everyone is someone's fetish, both "spergy, overbearingly heavy interest in niche things" and "awkward/dorky" are massively popular traits.
>>8677>I'd prefer to prevent other character types from becoming fads
Respectable, but ultimately even those archetypes that don't become trends will fall prey to universal moefication. All anime women will eventually be reduced to easily embarrassed, subservient, barely functional, childish autists, distinguished only by superficial traits dedicated to fetishistic appeal. Terrifying collages of huge eyes, melon-sized tits and childlike shrieking will roam the land and to great applause, because Miyazaki's much memed-about point was ultimately correct: anime fans and creators hate reality and can take nothing from it; with a few exceptions, anime has no path forward but to exaggerate itself.
And then we'll be forced to get real girlfriends.
The average weeb lives in constant contradiction not only about his superficial likes, but also about his identity. So you can expect them to not know what they really want. No amount of Barbells or reps will make you actually think why you love telling everyone that you have this cool new fetish, or what it might be reflecting from yourself. Do they want a gender role non-conforming girl, or they just want someone to love them that isn't "like the rest of thots" and more like a mail bride?
Also, how 3rd world (specially SEA/Latino) artists are the ones that fuel these stupid Anglo/USian fetish gold rushes could be another post on itself. Have you heard of "I'm not like the other girls?" Then well, this is what happens on most art communities from developing countries.
Thousands of loner boys and girls fed with no-context badly translated reactionary BS from the west, get bashed or banned from bigger and more liberal leaning artist groups because of their shallow art that rides on the latest trend from those videos (like """"cancelled""" characters), and then they join communities (or better said, circlejerks) where they can post their "cool" art and be rewarded with praises, and how they're so counterculture for drawing degen shit. They're all no-substance copies of Shadman or whatever the cool artist of the year is, and the only reason they do "art" is because they're looking for reactions. And when they learn english… Oh boy.
Many of them have zero sense of identity too, and usually think of their local art scene as "leftist/commie/liberal/sjw trash", never even try to learn a thing about their country's artistic history, so the only thing they know is their own interpretation of how Japanese art is supposed to be, and that's what they wanna do. No thoughts behind it. They can't reason, they can't accept criticism, as they've lived on a circlejerk their whole lives, so they'll be doing the same shit every single day until their safe space "falls down" (or just gets people that are into drawing what they like but aren't into the circlejerk)yugoslaviaYugoslavia
Sadly. It's hard to look at most anime communities when you're growing up mentally, as it seems like most of them try to push you downwards, going trend after trend "with the boys", telling on how you're not able to get any puss or female affection not because you're an insufferable twat but because you prefer not to talk to "normies", etcetera. I think Dragon Maid's new season, for example, is a good example of >with a few exceptions, anime has no path forward but to exaggerate itself
and how braindead anime fans will defend this because they have no critical thought but rather a shared malfunctioning braincell. A 6yo with a bland design and two melons? Why do you think that it's cool? Because it "offends sjws"?
Thank God I got to know this website. If I kept roaming around on reactionary anime circles (IB and non-IB specific), I'd be probably repeating their same nonsense.yugoslaviaYugoslavia
Why single out third world artists?>>8722>never even try to learn a thing about their country's artistic history, so the only thing they know is their own interpretation of how Japanese art is supposed to be
Why would they learn their country's artistic history? Anime artists aren't known for being into 'high' art
>>9148>Why single out third world artists?
They might live in the third world (like me) so they probably know what they're talking about when they say that third world porn artists are just disgusting Shadman clones (for some reason they can't copy objectively better artists).
>>9149>be less skilled>"lol shadclone"
guess every less skilled porn artist is now a shadclone
They're actually better than Shadman in many cases but it's all wasted on trying to copy his disgusting style (facial expressions, colors, lines, even shading and those greyish shadows that make skin look dirty) and on drawing random meme porn waifu of the week like him. They're clearly not "less skilled", just intentionally trying to copy his success, because Shadman's shit is popular in Latin America as you can see in the comments on his site.
t. artist>>8723>Thank God I got to know this website. If I kept roaming around on reactionary anime circles (IB and non-IB specific), I'd be probably repeating their same nonsense.
Don't get too excited, this site has been getting shittier due to reactionaries and other dumbasses raiding and then staying on /b/ and /leftypol/.
>>9166>staying on /b/ and /leftypol/
Haven't seen much of that, mods keep on the less offensive ones around to shit on them. >shadman copying
He's easy to copy and porn makes money in this degenerate capitalist system.
Holy kek how did I miss this shit? >>7440
I feel like these images are basically sexualizing and fetishizing to the maximum ]the relationship concept of characters like Carl and Ellie in "Up", where the roughhousing tomboy of a girl and a boy who play as children, grow up, fall in love and continue to enjoy their active somewhat odd life while also having a comfortable loving household as well. The difference is that these people's brains have wires crossed, between their want for "big mommy milkers" and "wholesome relationship" and in between that is a want for a friend who can also be like "one of the boys" on top of that.
>>8692>And then we'll be forced to get real girlfriends.
Big implication. The entire premise to otaku culture and the sole reason why it is the beacon of creativity catered to males is the fact that these men aren't bounded at all by females, or even their existence. Essentially, they are the furthest things for simps you could feasibly become in the modern world.
A startling percentage of indie webcomics have been ruined from female involvement, usually through meddling wives. This happens even to a lesser extent with certain manga authors who couldn't take the heat, and I can only assume that this is the same exact mechanism that leads to the ruin of male pandering comics and cartoons.
The artfags of old in japan have long since been dead (metaphorically and literally), the decades long recessions brought about by US legislators bought by automobile companies are to blame. Otaku culture is the sole reason your beloved medium has survived past the 90s and for as long as it has. Miyazaki and whipped westerners can whine all they want, but they have never been relevant for as long as it mattered.
I do agree with OP in the sense that certain fetishists, along with OP himself, are cancerous individuals that are ignorant of the medium and the ecosystem that it fosters, and sustains it. Women have always been objectified, sexualized and reduced to tropes in the medium, despite any plot and narratives it may incidentally provide. There are shows that by some fluke get made without such women (much fewer than you'd think), but make no mistake these shows only existed with the help of sexualized women, perhaps indirectly through other shows that aren't niche/flops that help to sustain the industry it calls home.
The act of reducing women to mere tropes is not a recent fad, it is a staple of the culture and the medium as we know it, although much more brazen and done with decreasing subtlety over time. This could be little girls, piss, foreigners/halfs, animal ears, little sisters, *dere, moe traits or any other trope you fervently dislike.
I'd say the shallowness of the execution of this trope in the past few years is twofold, one is the lack of plot and meaningful message in most shows that aren't sol (due to the lack of fucks given to sugarcoating their fetish stories as mentioned), and the invasion of normals both in the west and more crucially in japan, brought about by the increasing adoption of twitter and the culture war with boomers that the otakus "won" not too long ago.
The fetishes they bring along blur the lines of reality even more, with tropes like gyaru, eceleb, whatever a normal would prefer, and the shift from mix of sexual and romantic interest to purely sexual. I'd say this is also the reason weeaboo culture has exploded internationally, but that's a different issue. These new fetishes would, being much more grounded in reality, more easily confuse normals, who already lack the proper ability to distinguish fact from fiction. Naturally, this also makes the elephant in the room harder for the "failed normalfags" to ignore.
>>9273 >these men aren't bounded at all by females
Unless you're talking about pre-90s era Otakus you're lying. Otaku's since the mid-90s have generally been (correctly) associated with loser Hikki-NEET waifu-fag people, with very few Otaku (mostly oldfags) having any sense of class and culture. It's not even like Nerds or Geeks in the West, but straight up social rejects. >indie webcomics have been ruined from female involvement
Sounds more like WN artists being retards who can't handle their wives/girlfriends and cowtow to them >they are the furthest things for simps <[Waifu-fags] are the furthest thing from simps
In a way, given how they seem to loathe and fear real life women, due to the impractical and often bland expectations that have been set by most modern anime. And no, wanting a "big tiddy /fit/ goth tomboy gf" is not any less shallow, since it's just throwing together vague/simplistic cultural and sexual preferences. >exact mechanism that leads to the ruin of male pandering comics and cartoons
Comics and cartoons in the West are fucked over because of liberal idpol dominating the social sphere and so the market, it has nothing to do with "women ruining it" but ideological faggotry, because unlike in the old days, the new 'bosses' don't just hand a project to the creators to make a cultural work for sale (thus allowing both profitable and creative works to come out, but constantly meddle in the process as well. >Otaku culture is the sole reason your beloved medium has survived past the 90s
Anime survived the 90s because of shonen and seinen shows like One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, Inuyasha, Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball Z becoming popular in the West and bringing in a new market along side more esoteric but popular things like GiTS, Akira, Fist of the North Star etc. >Miyazaki is whining
When you spend your life creating something (let alone cultural benchmarks) I think you have a right to complain about the lifestyle you've lived and about how it's degenerated, especially when he's absolutely correct about it. >they have never been relevant for as long as it mattered<Miyazaki, Osshi etc. have never been relevant<the people who essentially created the best anime of their time and in general "were never relevant" <The Western Market, which saved the collapsing Japanese economy in general and anime studios in particular isn't relevant
You have the socio-economic comprehension of a gnat. >Women have always been objectified, sexualized and reduced to tropes in the medium
This is applicable to every character in anime male or female, it is not endemic to females, but merely more obvious, Tropes exist in every bit of culture and society, to the point where even defying a trope, is a trope in itself.
The difference being made is that in the past, besides the beauty and femininity of women being 'objectified' characters at least had some depth and weren't paper cut-outs, that 90% of anime today tend to be because they're shitty, 1 season SoL Moeshit. That's a changed trend in comparison to the 90s and 2000s, heck you even point that out yourself.
>>9274>Unless you're talking about pre-90s era Otakus you're lying.
Well I thought it was obvious I was referring to IRL females, not 2D. Not sure how them being social rejects has anything to do with this either.>WN artists being retards who can't handle their wives/girlfriends and cowtow to them
Basically. Not that I follow the WN scene or anything>And no, wanting a "big tiddy /fit/ goth tomboy gf" is not any less shallow, since it's just throwing together vague/simplistic cultural and sexual preferences.
I agree, weeaboos are a cancer. On top of what you said, wanting a gf that conforms to 2D standards is conflating fantasy with reality.>Comics and cartoons in the West … has nothing to do with "women ruining it" but ideological faggotry, because unlike in the old days, the new 'bosses' don't just hand a project to the creators to make a cultural work for sale (thus allowing both profitable and creative works to come out, but constantly meddle in the process as well.
I'd say that the bosses are way more lenient than they used to be with regards to censorship/etc. Sure there's a preference towards certain profitable ideologies nowadays, but before that (around 5-10 years ago) there has already been rampant nepotism (the calarts meme) and a general perversion of works that didn't fit the politics they were going for.>Anime survived the 90s because of shonen and seinen shows like One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, Inuyasha, Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball Z becoming popular in the West and bringing in a new market along side more esoteric but popular things like GiTS, Akira, Fist of the North Star etc.
I'm not convinced that the international market especially the ones back then were large enough to actually make an impact on spending and investment, let alone how authors write. Based on the data I've seen thrown around off-handedly, at least.>When you spend your life creating something (let alone cultural benchmarks) I think you have a right to complain about the lifestyle you've lived and about how it's degenerated, especially when he's absolutely correct about it.
He's not wrong and he has the right to bitch about it (like everybody does), I just don't think it's fair when you consider that the medium no longer has the freedom to produce animation as easily as they used to, considering factors like a higher bar for quality, recession and deflation and poorer purchasing power, market saturation and more. It's easy to dream and be idealistic when you ignore all the tiny cogs and details that make it all work.><Miyazaki, Osshi etc. have never been relevant><the people who essentially created the best anime of their time and in general "were never relevant" ><The Western Market, which saved the collapsing Japanese economy in general and anime studios in particular isn't relevant
"Best anime" as determined by award commitees and the western market aren't as relevant as you think it is. There is no doubt that the money they brought in helped to sustain certain studios that catered to such an audience, but this is not the same market as those who watch "anime", which itself largely overlaps with manga, LN, VN, franchising and not studios making blockbusters. So yeah, it's not relevant. I disagree that "The Western Market" saved japan's economy. Much of japan's superpower status could be attributed to their dominance in southeast asia, and I don't see how animation exports alone could save an economy either.>heck you even point that out yourself.
I did, my point was that the industry which has historically trended towards moving the overton window over to complete objectification of females might have gone a little too far when it began to sacrifice the elements needed for good storytelling like themes, character development and more.
Skipping to the parts where I have something to say, since we're in agreement at this point>bosses are way more lenient than they used to be with regards to censorship
This is true, what I mean is that they're much more restrictive in terms of actual content in regards to plot and characters (in Western comics/cartoons) promoting liberal ideology and spamming idpol to the great dislike of /co/ and the average cartoon-viewer. It's more likely for a show to be low-brow and stuffed with memes, and retarded shit (like Steven Universe for example) than anything worth a damn (like the 2011 Thundercats) >efore that (around 5-10 years ago)
I mean that's what I'm referring to, but even in the early 2010s most cartoons and comics were largely apolitical or subtle and at least tried to have quality of some kind. This has less to do with women and more a general cancerous liberalism of the predominant porky-supported social sphere in the West. >not convinced that the international market
Oldfag here, it was. You're forgetting that Japan is a small country compared to the USA, and it's population and so market is limited, exporting to the USA suddenly brought a market of 200 million people to buy their products, especially since the Japanese companies were collapsing in the 90s due to their privatization failings and were snapped up into Western 'alliances'. That's also why Toyotas and Hondas began to supercede American cars in the US market during the 90s. Second only to Harry Potter (and maybe MLP), Naruto has the biggest fanbase on the internet even today, followed by DBZ and other shonen that quickly overtook the American Market. shit like Beyblade, Yu Gi Yoh and Pokemon/Digimon were massive fads of the mid 90s/early 2000s and the Japanese anime industry rose to meet the demand, and with how popular isekai and moe-blob things got in the late 2000s, the restored corporations capitalized on this weebtrap.
Also as a side note, Evangelion is a perfect example anime for this whole process - it arose in the mid 90s during the collapse and was essentially a cheap anime that was expected to be a mediocre success, like an extended OVA series, but because of how Anno and his crew's depression and projected thoughts and ideas turned it into a lament of human problems (including the spiralling cesspit of Otaku) it became a cultural phenomenon, ESPECIALLY since the Western Market blew up it's popularity, which later resulted in the shitty Rebuilds. >the medium no longer has the freedom to produce animation as easily as they used to
Are you referring to market pressures? Because animation wise, computer technology has only made it easier, even for 2d/hand-drawn stuff. Market wise, Miyazaki's view is based on the actions of his own time, when high-school/college protests and animators standing their ground against corporate big bosses, while today they just go with the trend and allow themselves to get worked to death and underpaid while also not getting to make anything worth a damn >determined by award commitees
I agree>Western market
It's a larger market and is relied upon. Why do you think Light Novels sold in the USA are priced at 12-15 bucks while in Japan they sell for 3-6 dollars (in Yen equivalent)>those who watch "anime", which itself largely overlaps with manga, LN, VN, franchising and not studios making blockbusters
/a/ is a more expansive market, but they also love high-brow movies and stuff from Ghibli and other productions, so it still matters. >japan's superpower status could be attributed to their dominance in southeast asia
Which was acquired through American Imperialism and their grip on their SE Asian vassal states. Remember Japan is essentially a US puppet. >ow animation exports alone could save an economy
No the Western Market in general saved the Japanese economy and anime was among those things that grew the economy, see the animators thread to see how much a CEO makes vs an animator. Also I should correct both of us, Japan technically didn't save itself, as on the over-all economic scale since 1995, Japan's economy has been stagnating and declining in terms of GDP, interest rates and other economic factors. While I loathe wikipedia, it does a decent job talking about the economic collapse it is in (just take some statements with salt) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decades_(Japan)>my point was that the industry which has historically trended towards moving the overton window over to complete objectification of females might have gone a little too far when it began to sacrifice the elements needed for good storytelling like themes, character development and more.
I agree, and in fact so does Miyazaki, which is why I'm confused as to why you dismissed him when his statements affirm your point.
Things like Ghibli and "normie" Japanese cartoons should be considered an entirely different kind of animation. Those aren't considered otaku shit by the general population.>>9273>The entire premise to otaku culture and the sole reason why it is the beacon of creativity catered to males is the fact that these men aren't bounded at all by females, or even their existence.>Well I thought it was obvious I was referring to IRL females, not 2D. Not sure how them being social rejects has anything to do with this either.
New anime is shittier because it's made by otaku to pander to other otaku who are detached from reality (and because that's how it is in the capitalist system, everything degenerates for the sake of maximum profit). So them not being "bounded at all by (real) females" does not result in higher quality or a "beacon of creativity". Yes, it is catered to males, but the dogshit that 3D-hating otaku make nowadays isn't exactly "creative".
Also no one ever mentioned "simps". What do you even mean by that? Being attracted to real women, as opposed to thinking about 2D women 24/7? Otaku social rejects are extremely alienated and don't successfully develop social skills which, most of the time, results in them being lonely and losing all hope of experiencing romance, so they retreat into their fantasies while rejecting reality as much as they can (which is a natural reaction). I don't get how this is supposed to have a positive impact on the quality of anime. Male-pandering works were better when the men creating them were in touch with reality and even had contact with real women, but then again the industry was also relatively new and allowed for more creativity.>>9277> exporting to the USA suddenly brought a market of 200 million people to buy their products,
Let's not forget that Japan has been exporting anime and video games to the whole world for decades but especially since the 90s like you said. Not just the US; anime is huge in other coutries too.
>>2712>gender isn't immune to cultural change.
The fuck are you talking about, Tomboy isn't a gender you twit, that's like saying a Gyaru is a gender. It's a character defined by certain masculine behaviors by otherwise normal girls. You sound like those awful people who spam "egg" at any male interested in girly things.
I mean, yes, tomboys are defined by what's considered "masculine" and what's considered "normal" for girls at the time. Tomboy isn't a gender, but it's shaped by gender.
No it isn't Patrick. >>9373>isn't a gender>shaped by gender
Could the same be said for "tomgirls", or whatever boys who have "feminine", as defined under current hegemony, characteristics get called?
Tomgirl is a much more recent term than tomboy though, and so it's characteristics are by definition the reverse of Tomboy but for some reason feels a bit tasteless, probably because tomgirl tends to be used mostly in a sexual tone every time it's used, a fetishized termin for girly-boys that arose probably because "trap" has become a bit old and liberals get their panties in a twist over it and "Nancy" is too old for most Zoomers on the internet to even be aware of.
Speaking of Otakushit and their fetishisms I stumbled across this site (below) recently and I'm stuck nostalgic joy for early 2000s graphic design of the site - finally something that isn't the flat phone-oriented shit I see all the time - and disgust at it basically being yet another Otaku fetish sale site. Opinions?https://home.gamer.com.tw/creationDetail.php?sn=1509457
>I do agree with OP in the sense that certain fetishists, along with OP himself, are cancerous individuals that are ignorant of the medium and the ecosystem that it fosters, and sustains it.
states he agrees with OP
states OP has no clue
Sporty tomboys are just one kind of tomboy but they're the one type that represents the "tomboy" fetish. Sad.
>>9668>didn't even read the text<autistically focused on the passing sports mention
pathetic, and yeah sports is a pretty common part of Tomboy aesthetic.
I feel like you've said what I've thought of all this time. Can't agree more with you.
It's sad to see how (usually reactionary) weebs turned a nice archetype into a soulless cirlcejerk.
I'm so goddamn tired of those "I NEED LE TOMBOY LE GYM LE TRAD GF PLEASE SHE HAS TO BE MANLY BUT SUBMISSIVE WHEN I DARE TO SPEAK", gymcel-core weebs are no different than their Leddit "le cinnamon big booba booga milker fang" counterpart.
>>9702><autistically focused on the passing sports mention>passing mention
It's part of the whole pasta. Fights, sports, kung-fu, tanlines, toned body, etc…
There are other types of tomboys that don't involve any of these things. Like nerdy tomboys for example.
>>9713>It's part of the whole pasta
Yes, a PART. >There are other types of tomboys that don't involve any of these things
Did you read the OP about tomboy starting to mean nothing or are you actually this dumb? A tomboy is a girl who behaves and does things that are traditionally masculine. A nerdy girl is a nerdy girl, nothing tomboy about it.
>>9716>A nerdy girl is a nerdy girl,
There are feminine ones and masculine ones. Also being a nerd is traditionally seen as a boyish thing, just like being into sports. For a girl to be a tomboy she doesn't necessarily have to be into the latter.
Oh, and also, OP actually said this:>As the years went by I found myself highly attracted to 2D girls with varying types of what are culturally seen as masculine qualities. Like the aforementioned athletic, bold, energetic, likes to play rough but also aggressive, assertive, emotionally reserved, brash, vulgar, messy, short-tempered, rhetorical, analytical, philosophical, gluttonous, as lustful as a man and so on. In other words, women who behave like the worst and best of male cultural stereotypes. Do they "look" like tomboys? Some do. But even then I have nothing in common with the pathetic fetishists, the most egregious and possibly loudest of which circlejerk over 2D girls who only "look" like tomboys and otherwise do not deviate much from the assumed average girl who on top of that unironically fantasize about turning said "tomboy" into a traditional 1950s cooking, breeding and raising servant (read: wife).
>>9717>There are feminine ones and masculine ones
That's not how it works MFW. A Nerd by definition isn't masculine, they're literally the "brain over brawns" stereotype, and while you have nerds who are also sportive, that's not the same shit. A tomboy nerd doesn't exist. A Tomboy may engage in "nerdy" things, but that's not the main part of their behavior. >>9718
Nerdiness has never been seen as a masculine quality, it's been about brains vs brawn and utterly ungendered, a girl or boy can be a nerd. You can't be a macho and not be either a male or a female acting like a male (tomboy). Capiche?
It seems that you still think of "tomboys" as a fetish. When in fact what makes a girl a tomboy is her stereotypically masculine personality (as described by OP), which may or may not be reflected in her appearance. The pasta screencaps you posted describe a tomboy because of this, although the interest in physical activity like sports and combat could be replaced by any other traditionally masculine interest and it wouldn't change the fact that she's a tomboy.
And yes, being a hardcore nerd has been seen as a mostly male thing for decades. There are even fools who think that women cannot be nerds. Chances are that you've seen female anime characters who always act and look like a sterotypical male
otaku, those would also be tomboys since they're not feminine nor do they care about girly stuff; the old otaku stereotype in Japan is a young adult male with a plain and messy appearance who is a loser. You may not agree, and such characters might not count as tomboys because of that, but "tomboy" is relative, as you can see.
Of course, over time and across cultures, what's associated with masculinity and femininity changes, so the idea of what a tomboy is like also changes. For example, it is no longer considered weird for women to be interested in fitness or to wear jeans so those things alone aren't enough to call someone a tomboy anymore (a stronger indicator would be, for example, getting into a sport that is still viewed as exclusively male like hockey, or preferring shitty baggy jeans as opposed to sexy skinny jeans). More women are cutting their hair short like a boy, which is being normalized, so that's not enough by itself to tell, either. Thus, the lines begin to blur.
The problem with trying to define a tomboy is that gender roles and sterotypes are mostly bullshit. If you agree with this, and avoid associating preferences and personality traits with either gender accordingly, it becomes more difficult to think of tomboys (or yourself, if you're a tomboy) as "special" and not like just another woman. Think of the difference between "it's so cute when a tomboy wears girly clothes and gets all embarrassed and uncomfortable" (or, if you're a tomboy, "I hate wearing dresses because they're girly, and it's embarrassing when I feel girly") vs. "she doesn't really like wearing dresses, I guess everybody has their own clothing preferences". The concept of "tomboy" exists as long as you believe in gender stereotypes, and depends on what your idea of masculine and feminine is.
This lol. Don't get stuck with coomer brain.
>>9723>This fucking diatribe
Sheesh, dial back the amphetamines m8, having to reply to this is a headache… that might have been the intent though.
TL;DR: Tomboy's definition is based on inverting gender roles and their traditional Gender Roles are based on biological traits and material realities and so remain legitimate regardless of capitalism's trying to dilute them. Being a Nerd or Otaku is not a traditional or majority lifestyle of males and so doesn't apply to Tomboy unless you're just playing fetishist. Being an "Otaku" may involve more men than women but that's still a small portion of the population, most Otaku are men, but most men are not Otaku, capiche?
Longtext: >It seems that you still think of "tomboys" as a fetish
No, precisely the opposite. Tomboy has a set definition. A (straight) girl behaving like a traditionally masculine male. While the definition of masculine can vary somewhat, Nerdiness, which is ungendered does not apply to this definition.
Seriously the very fact that you have to say "Nerd Tomboy" already makes it nonsensical, when Tomboy is description, it's like saying "a Nerd Jock". >which may or may not be reflected in her appearance
Yes, BUT commonly a tomboy will dress as a guy too, mostly because doing sports or rough-housing in a dress/skirt is at minimum inconvenient. >the interest in physical activity like sports and combat could be replaced by any other traditionally masculine interest
Yes, no shit. Nerdiness is not a traditionally masculine interest, seriously, are we now twisting the meaning of Nerd too? >being a hardcore nerd has been seen as a mostly male thing for decades
The fuck it has. Have you watched any 80s and 90s movie (let alone lived in that time)? Nerds aren't all boys or girls, being a social group of their own, not a gendered behavioral type. >here are even fools who think that women cannot be nerds.
Modern day incels from /pol/ are not nerds, being a Nerd =/= being a Hikki-NEET.
Additionally even if your claim of Nerds being mostly male as true, that's not a masculine trait. Gender Roles are important part of the definition of Tomboys, but being a Nerd is not a gender role. there are very clear biological and behavioral differences between men and women, which determined the same basic gender roles in many unrelated cultures and civilizations. Being a Nerd remains a modern behavior with no relevance to gender, or do you imply girls aren't smart too? >seen female anime characters who always act and look like a stereotypical male otaku
Yes, but being an Otaku is not primarily a male trait. You cannot tell me that Tomoko is a Tomboy. >old otaku stereotype in Japan is a young adult male with a plain and messy appearance who is a loser.
That's a cultural stereotype, partially from how Japan's society treats women. Regardless, Otaku are not a majority or common male behavior over all, it's a niche, with little to do with masculinity. Nobody in their right mind would call them masculine. >what's associated with masculinity and femininity changes
True, but some basal traits of masculinity and femininity remain over time, arising in separate cultures repeatedly. >it is no longer considered weird for women to be interested in fitness
That hasn't been weird in a while, what has remained weird is female weight lifters and other heavy exercises; like it or not, women are biologically weaker than men physically, which matters especially as adults. >More women are cutting their hair short like a boy
Not a lot of girls cut their hair as short as men: there's a lot of difference between say a bob-cut and crew-cut. Most non-black women who cut their hair really short are often stereotypical dyke lesbians. It is not a common hair style even today outside of African cultures (which is dictated by their eternally curly hair and the phenotypical adaptations against the heat in Africa).
Regardless, the traditional idea of femininity that comes to mind remains fairly the same, regardless of most trends. >trying to define a tomboy is that gender roles and sterotypes are mostly bullshit
wrong>avoid associating preferences and personality traits with either gender
There are neutral traits, feminine traits and masculine traits, it's not that hard to accept, and there is no reason to dilute them by muddling and expanding set definitions for no reason. A character may not be a tomboy, and that's fine, no need to pigeonhole every character into a single over-stretched archetype.>"she doesn't really like wearing dresses, I guess everybody has their own clothing preferences"
Which is both boring and inaccurate. The point of that was simple - going out and fooling around and doing new things, that's what younger people do when they hang out - push boundaries and probe the uncomfortable. Also, most people dress according to social trends and what is popular, consciously or subconsciously following trends. It's rare for a person to wear clothes purely out of preference - thus we see the current obsession with wearing Yoga Pants everywhere, leaving little to the imagination of anyone who sees. >The concept of "tomboy" exists as long as you believe in gender stereotypes
Belief is irrelevant, Gender as a social construct remains legitimate because it reflects a material reality. Capitalism tries to muddy the water in regards to this, because denying the differences and unique traits with women and men furthers capitalism's ideology by promoting a nigh-robotic featurelessness. Gender Roles are also not hard-set, individuals can still defy these roles without anulling their existence, they're not absolute rules.
PS>skinny jeans <uncomfortable unimaginative ugly fashion <sexy <because it shows all but every little bit of the lower half.
Shit taste. The point of clothes is to cover yourself, might as well just wear nothing and show off the goods straight up. Inb4 "sexist" IMO it applies to men too.
LOL wut, did you even read the post?
>>9735>saging<missing the point
Your point, hidden in that diatribe of yours, is that Tomboys aren't just sporty, and its "Sad" that they represent Tomboys… what about [X] Tomboys!?
Then you go on some tangent about how Otaku and Nerds have a lot of males in their groups and so that's also masculine today.
Just… just stop.
Japan didn't create the word and definition of Tomboy. And even then That's still not the same as "muh dorky Tomboy" or something.
I find it weird how a new(er) weeb term has been created for a specific form of tomboys who live as men, reverse trap; This refers to a Tomboy who essentially disguises themselves as a boy, essentially reversing the whole "disguised as a girl" thing that traps have. The problem is, traps are 90% of the time just sexual bait, they usually don't dress in formal dresses and clothing, its mostly miniskirts and other revealing, risqué stuff. Reverse traps usually dress normally.
In other words: A reverse trap, also known as a Bifauxnen (a portmanteau of Bishōnen and faux, meaning false in French), is simply a girl who resembles a boy. Conversely, what is commonly referred to as a "trap" by the English speaking audience of anime simply refers to a boy who has the qualities of a girl, or otherwise known as a Bishōnen.
An example of such a character from a typical anime would be Draco the DragoNewt from Monster Musume (pic 2). An accidental reverse trap would be Irina Shidou from High School DxD (Issei's childhood friend who he thought was a boy). A Western-Chinese example would be Fa Mulan.
Fetishization aside, why would the TOMBOY be the one wearing that shirt? Is SHE looking to impregnate and gain "milkies" from a tomboy? Is she a futa or something? 'Cause the point of the text is to represent the shirt wearer. Whoever made this really didn't think that image through. >inb4 "the speech bubble says it's anon's shirt"
The speech bubble could say anything you want, that low-cut wide shirt is definitely not a male sleeveless (t.sleeveless clothing owner).
Sugoi Dekai? More like Suckoi Dickai!
anyway Uzaki-chan post analysis >>3015
>>9737>Then you go on some tangent about how Otaku and Nerds have a lot of males in their groups and so that's also masculine today.
Holy fucking shit. Motherfucker, there was a time when nerds were considered male only, and yes, geeky stuff was (and probably still is) considered to be men's thing. It does not matter that most men aren't nerds, what matters is that it's seen as an exclusively male activity/subculture, something that women aren't expected to do at all, but isn't considered weird for men to get into (of course, this is different depending on place and time
which means this might not be the case where you live and in the time you were raised). Do you get it now? Most men aren't into weightlifting either, yet it's seen as a male-only activity. Yes, being physically active is in fact the main thing associated with tomboys, but it isn't the only thing that is considered "natural" of men but not women, nor the only thing that can make one a tomboy. OP already mentioned some other traits that are associated with masculinity rather than femininity. I'm not the only person who thinks like this, it was a pretty popular opinion before "tan short-haired muscle girl tomboy" became the fetish fad it is today, and I'm sure that many people still agree with my (correct) definition.
Remember, a tomboy is defined by how women are expected to behave or what they're supposed to be into (whether it is "based on biology" or not). If a woman prefers to act "like a guy" instead of "like a girl" she's a tomboy, it's that fucking simple. She doesn't even need to be energetic or whatever, as long as she talks "like a man". Any woman who identifies and/or hangs out more with men than other women might also be a tomboy, especially if she hates everything that is "feminine".
But hey, man, if you want to change the definition from "a girl who does things that aren't expected from a girl but from a boy" to "a type of short-haired sporty girl who makes my dick hard", then go for it. It's actually pretty cool that you think all those things aren't tied to any one gender.>>9755>A reverse trap, also known as a Bifauxnen (a portmanteau of Bishōnen and faux, meaning false in French), is simply a girl who resembles a boy
It's not that simple. The point of a "bifauxnen", as the name suggests, is that they're girls who look like a bishonen (美少年), which is a "pretty boy" like Cloud Strife, the cast from Free!, most guys found in BL, etc.: beautiful, androgynous face, (which is what 美 "bi" refers to) but still obviously (young) males, (which is what the 少年 "shonen" part means). These girls may or may not be indistinguishable from a guy at first. If a girl resembled a hideous guy, for example, she wouldn't be a bifauxnen.>Conversely, what is commonly referred to as a "trap" by the English speaking audience of anime simply refers to a boy who has the qualities of a girl, or otherwise known as a Bishōnen.
lmao who wrote this definition? I see it reposted on a lot of sites. Bishonen aren't traps, holy shit (they can be, depending on how feminine they are, but the two are not synonyms). Besides, traps appeal mostly to males, while bishonen practically exist for the female part of an audience.
Traps/otokonoko have a similar appeal to that of dickgirls/newhalves: biologically, they are male and have a penis, but otherwise they are so feminine that unless you are specifically told they're male, or see their genitals, they're indistinguishable from the average pretty girl, and if you didn't know better you would immediately assume they're one, that's why they're called "traps": the idea is that they "trap" you into desiring them sexually under the assumption that they're female, then the gender reveal happens, and in fiction this is meant to be humorous (nowadays, this is done as a fetish, however, so in anime and hentai they're advertised
as traps). They may also use girly pronouns (in Japanese, something like "atashi") to refer to themselves, or otherwise have a girly style of speech in general.
On the other hand, most bishonen are masculine enough that you usually would never think they're girls (you would probably assume they're gay guys instead); it might be hard to tell their gender in some cases, and in extremely rare cases you'll mistake them for a woman. They almost always use masculine or sometimes neutral (slightly feminine) pronouns for themselves, and a neutral or masculine style of speech.
You could say that traps go beyond
bishonen in terms of femininity, and instead of remaining ambiguous/androgynous they go for the extreme opposite and become completely feminine. On paper, the difference between trap and bishie is "slightly different amounts of femininity and masculinity", but in practice this makes a huge difference: they're usually designed for different audiences, and have vastly different appeals. For this reason, reverse traps are very common in girls' media (see pics 1 and 2; also old shojo works like The Rose of Versailles), since girls tend to be attracted to the masculine and androgynous traits that a reverse trap shares with bishonen (regular traps also exist in girls' media but they're definitely done in a very different, more tasteful way than how traps for men are done; see pics 3 and 4). Another reason is that Takarazuka Revue musicals, where women play both male and female roles (and the ones who play male roles are trained to act and talk like men all the time), are so popular among girls that they've had a tremendous influence on shojo manga and consequently also many other kinds of women's media in Japan, so those works will often have a female character with the same appeal.
More info on bifauxnen: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Bifauxnen
Your examples are correct though. Some "reverse traps" are also examples of tomboys who aren't necessarily into physical activities like sports or combat.
Also that first pic of yours.>Traps are gay>Reverse traps aren't gay
Absolute retardation. If you're a man who likes masculine traits and that's why you're attracted to reverse traps, you might be gay or bi. Same if you're a woman who likes reverse traps but you might also be straight. If you like 'em because you're a man and find reverse traps cute in a feminine way, or because you want to "bring out their feminine side", or whatever, you might not be gay. It really depends on what you like about traps/reverse traps and why you like them. So sick of this idiotic meme debate about whether "traps are gay" or not that actually ends up turning into internet culture wars (like your pic for example, or the "tomboy summer" shit /pol/fags tried to force even here). No one ever comes to any conclusion because it's different for everybody.
Sorry for ranting about that but this stupid shit shows up wherever I go, in fact I just had to deal with it this morning too. And it's always guys who bring it up, oddly enough…
>>9839>saging again to avoid reply
Are you actually this much of a faggot?
>>9839>there was a time when nerds were considered male only
LOL when? Nerds have been pretty inclusive for decades, since at least the mid 70s, and for the majority of the time the termin existed. >Geeky stuff is a man's thing
LOL no, cope harder, nerdiness was only "cool" in teen movies of the mid 80s and 90s, and even then was considered to be dorky. >what matters is that it's seen as an exclusively male activity/subculture
Except it isn't. It also doesn't make it typical masculine behavior either, since the actual activity has nothing to ith male-exclusive content. Sports, Weight-lifting, Martial Arts, Bar-hopping etc. are considered 'masculine' because typically women have a hard time getting involved, a man will generally outperform the average woman in these regards, by mere fact of being biologically male (which is why IRL there is such debate about 'trans' Athletes in women's sports). >something that women aren't expected to do at all
Absolute brainworms, a girl being nerdy and bookish and whatall is fairly common, it's just not given a seperate archetype because NERD already exists as one. >it isn't the only thing that is considered "natural" of men but not women
Being a nerd isn't a "natural" thing of men either FFS, so again, Nerd and nerdiness is absolutely irrelevant. >OP already mentioned some other traits that are associated with masculinity rather than femininity.
And just being a typical nerd is not one of them. Nerds are considered unmasculine by a typical definition because their focus is "brainy things" this is why /fitlit/ was a joke board, people had a hard time splitting between intelligence and fit bodies and so ended up staying on their original boards. >If a woman prefers to act "like a guy" instead of "like a girl" she's a tomboy, it's that fucking simple <literally what I say
Wow, no shit Sherlock! How'd ya figure that out?! >random fucking images from a google search of anime tomboy>>>/GET/ is right there if ya want to image spam.
>"a type of short-haired sporty girl who makes my dick hard" <"a girl who does things that aren't expected from a girl but from a boy"
Imagine making such a dishonest strawman worded in such a convoluted way. Stay Mad.
>>9839>hese girls may or may not be indistinguishable from a guy at first. If a girl resembled a hideous guy, for example, she wouldn't be a bifauxnen.
Wow, imagine being so contrarian that you have to break down a textbook anime definition, to reiterate the exact same point being made and end up agreeing anyway without outright saying so. Seriously, you state "a girl resembling an ugly buy wouldn't be a bifauxnen" when that's literally IN THE DEFINITION OF BISHOUNEN: PRETTY-BOY!
And this, ladies and gentlemen sets the tone for the entire rest of this god-forsaken diatribe rant about Reverse traps, in reply to a casual comment on yet another new fetishization by weebs. Seriously m8, when you wrote this and saw that it was over 4,500 characters, why didn't you stop and try to edit out all the unnecessary parts? I get pedantics, but this is too much.
>Bishonen aren't traps <the two are not synonyms [but a character can be both]
No shit, speedreader! Let me explain in layman's terms; Traps are all bishounen because they "really pretty", the reverse is not true, not all bishounen are traps. In other words it's a square-rectangle analogy: not all rectangles are squares but all squares are rectangles, I would think that obvious from the specific order in which I wrote out the definition. >traps appeal mostly to males <bishonen practically exist for the female part of an audience
The appeal of traps to males is pic 1 related, otherwise most of the actual appeal is the same Fujoshi-bait that Bishis are. >traps have the appeal of [being literal traps with their feminity]
I don't see why you're explaining a basic and well understood definition of a piece of weeb-slang when anyone who isn't a new-fag redditor would know. >nowadays, this is done as a fetish
This has to be the first piece of genuine nuance, yes indeed, traps have gone from a funny gag about "haha gotcha!" to a literal fetish, similar to what happened to Gender-Bender gags, and so it's not a gag and just outright the plot of some shows/anime episodes. >most bishonen are masculine enough that you usually would never think they're girls
They dress as girls and they'd become instant traps, it's an anime not real life, so there isn't any of the awkward obviousness of a crossdressing dude, no matter how thin they may be. >traps go beyond bishonen in terms of femininity, and instead of remaining ambiguous/androgynous they go for the extreme opposite and become completely feminine
Except the only reason this would be true is the main difference of the two, the former dresses up as a girl and so femininity is accentuated - Astolfo or Felix or any other well known trap character, dressed in boys clothes will look like a pretty-boy, not a girl (partially again, because anime usually lacks defining facial features that would make a boy or girl stand out)>more tasteful way than how traps for men are done
I disagree, it has more to do with how some anime are low-effort in their depictions and some are not, and genre is irrelevant in that regard >Some "reverse traps" are also examples of tomboys who aren't necessarily into physical activities like sports or combat.
Correct >first pic
And here we go again; Listen m8… it's a meme, not an actual debate, anyone who takes this seriously is playing themselves. That being said you're not entirely wrong, just… take it easy. Also pic 2 related>it's always guys who bring it up
Because sexuality and gayness are always a big part of weeb audiences online, girls tend to stick to stuff like Wattpad, DA, FFN and non-anon forums.
I'll make an amendment to this post; the pics you posted were related… to your other answer, so I was wrong about that.
In case your autism is still preventing you from noticing, I wasn't avoiding a reply (I was actually expecting it because you obviously monitor this thread as well), I was trying not to annoy other people going through the overboard or the first page of /anime/ with our retarded walls of text about petty details. Unfortunately you do that every time you bump this thread.>>9872>Nerds have been pretty inclusive for decades
Missing the point again?>LOL no, cope harder,
Seriously, what am I supposed to be coping with? Do you seriously think I'm driven by an attraction to nerdy tomboys and not just a desire to prove you wrong?>nerdiness was only "cool" in teen movies of the mid 80s and 90s,
And back then was the period when shit like video games started to be marketed almost exclusively at boys, which resulted in video games being seen as an exclusively male hobby for quite some time. Before that, video games had been marketed for both genders and different age groups, but at some point it became "weird" for girls to get into that. Also, tech has always been >and even then was considered to be dorky.
What does it matter if it was seen as a dorky or a cool thing? You keep bringing that up, I never did.>Sports, Weight-lifting, Martial Arts, Bar-hopping etc. are considered 'masculine' because typically women have a hard time getting involved, a man will generally outperform the average woman in these regards, by mere fact of being biologically male
All of these things also apply to being into tech stuff except for the last one depending on your opinion on that. Of course, there may be different reasons that have nothing to do with biology, but the point is that, for the longest time, women generally haven't been as involved in these things or been as successful/visible as men. The old idea that "there are no girls on the internet", for example, actually came from somewhere, and it's even believed by people on this very site to an extent; our userbase is also largely male.>Being a nerd isn't a "natural" thing of men either FFS
Yes, that's why I put it in quotes, because some people think that men are usually more involved in such hobbies than women due to biological reasons (and that's where some cultural sexist prejudices come from). Whether it's true or not is irrelevant.
For fuck's sake, education used to be reserved for men, are you seriously going to argue that, because being smart is not a unique trait of men, education wasn't considered male-only back then and it wasn't "weird" or "wrong" for a woman to want to get some education in those times?><literally what I say
What you said is that being sporty is a necessary trait for a woman to be a tomboy, and somehow implied that being physically strong is the only masculine thing that exists. But there are some ways in which women can "act like men" which don't necessarily involve physical activity, such as using the same coarse language as men do in public, not taking care of one's physical appearance or not using makeup, or doing whatever is considered "un-ladylike", which could even involve having a certain posture or walking a certain way.>>random fucking images from a google search of anime tomboy
No, they all come from otome games and the images are from VNDB, retard.>>9873> Traps are all bishounen because they "really pretty"
No. You really don't get the meaning of bishonen. Most traps, by virtue of catering to males, are "fake bishojo", while most reverse traps, by virtue of catering to females, are "bifauxnen". Bishonen is masculine and for women, bishojo is feminine and for men. If a trap looks exactly like a bishojo, or average cute anime girl, he can't be a bishonen, or average pretty anime boy: that's the entire point of "traps". Again, most traps go too far beyond the bishonen femininity line, and they land squarely into bishojo territory. It doesn't matter if you think those traps are "pretty" and that this must mean that they fit the definition of "bishonen" because it literally means "beautiful boy": it's not androgynous, it's 100% feminine, therefore cannot possibly be bishonen. You're just taking definitions extremely
The fujo example you gave is actually not "most traps" nowadays, and yes, those would count as bishonen (mostly because the typical yaoi style made it clear that they were just the submissive bottom of the main couple but still male), but they used to be much more common more than a decade ago. And even then, those weren't always crossdressers, they were just stereotypical uke which is why they resembled girls, but they were not part of the otokonoko fetish like the ones that are more well-known today. Saying that bishonen traps made for girls and bishojo-looking traps made for guys are the same is like saying that BL and otokonoko hentai are both "yaoi" because there's gay sex in both, despite the styles, audiences and appeals being entirely different.
And no, Astolfo or Felix would still look like girls and nothing like boys if they wore masculine clothes, the way they're designed (face and body) makes them look too feminine to resemble the non-trap males in their respective series, not to mention their voice. They're unambiguously female in everything except genitals.
Seriously, if you have no idea what you're talking about, just admit it and stop pulling definitions out of your ass.>Nerds have been pretty inclusive for decades>Sports, Weight-lifting, Martial Arts, Bar-hopping etc. are considered 'masculine' because typically women have a hard time getting involved, a man will generally outperform the average woman in these regards, by mere fact of being biologically male
>>9893>Also, tech has always been
considered, in general, as something that men do, not women.
People use overboard specifically to view new content, including textwalls and whatnot, it's not that hard to scroll past a post. >our retarded walls of text about petty details
This is a chan, that's what we do all the time lol. You're not going to hurt anyone by not saging.
>>9893>Missing the point again?
Your point is inane, and I already broke down why. >cope about
the fact that, in fact, Nerdiness wasn't really a male exclusive aspect, as (for example) the typical 'Nerd' cafeteria table had girls and boys alike and that was pretty normal and culturally accepted (see movies). A girl on, say, the football team is neither accepted nor normal. >driven by an attraction to nerdy tomboys and not just a desire to prove you wrong?
Given your own self-admission to the fact that your textwall arguments are somewhat too stupid for other people's sensibilities, I would assume that you're so adamant in dying on this Nerd hill because you are invested in Nerdy Tomboys. >the period when shit like video games started to be marketed almost exclusively at boys
Yes, but vidya wasn't really exclusive to Nerds and the early "gamers" of the 80s and 90s included mostly normal kids who liked to play games. >it became "weird" for girls to get into that
True, but that's not really being a Nerd. Also this didn't last long, as this kind of marketing to boys stopped at the mid-90s when stuff like Pokemon and Digimon, and at this point it's a fairly normal expectation for a guy and girl to hang out and play games, which is partially why during GamerGate's idiocy, Anita Sarkeesian was derided for being an ignorant dumbass. >What does it matter if it was seen as a dorky or a cool thing
I know you didn't bring it up, that's the point. It is relevant to the fact that even if I theoretically agreed that Nerds are "mostly male" or some shit, the point is that they're not a representation of most males and therefore masculinity as a whole, which is in part based on biological physiology and behavior of males.
I'll address the rest later; Gotta Go Fast
Cont.>All of these things also apply to being into tech stuff
Are you implying that females are biologically less able in tech/Nerd stuff? Because that's patently untrue, hell it's pretty well known that girls tend to excel over men in many technical regards (which is why many bureaus such as Mikoyan-Gurevich in the USSR had many women-dominated technician groups and departments. Only in the West where 2nd and third wave feminism was focused on (in essence) pushing businessmen-but-female in terms of female work rights, and left professional technicums rather devoid of women, not because this was a masculine field, but because of porky's impact on culture. >women generally haven't been as involved in these things or been as successful/visible as men
In tech, at least in the West this is in part due to the liberal attitude of feminism and it's essential "landlords but female/gay/black" type ideologies, pushing literal equality, rather than the equity that women in Socialist or social-democratic states did. >there are no girls on the internet
That's got nothing to do with it being "male dominated" and has to do with the focus on male/female identity online being used as a cudgel (as proven with twitter accounts and their argument by (self) authority because "I'm an [X] so I'm totally right". Pic 1 related is essentially the whole point of why this maxim exists. Like I said, gender neutral essentially. >this site
Because it's dictated by capitalism's impact on society, that's why incel is a termin almost exclusive to males, (requiring the need for "femcel" to differentiate). This means that while an incel is generally not masculine (i.e. le chinlet), they are males because of male/female dynamics, which is why ideas of males being raped by females is often correctly dismissed, a woman is the one being penetrated and cannot physically force you to fuck her, and a woman will be in the right if they refuse sex, as it is a choice that gives up power to the man. But I digress. >some people think that men are usually more involved in such hobbies than women due to biological reasons
That is true, but not the majority of people, which is my point. Unless it is seen widely as being male dominated by virtue of masculinity, something is not inherently masculine in and of itself. >education used to be reserved for men
And that wasn't based in any legitimate biology, it was just sexism… not to mention that for the majority of people neither men nor women were allowed an education by virtue of being of the lower class. >it wasn't "weird" or "wrong" for a woman to want to get some education in those times?
It was, but it wasn't seen as masculine, there's a difference between a girl behaving outside the norm, and a girl specifically behaving specifically in male fashion. >What you said is that being sporty is a necessary trait for a woman to be a tomboy
I never said that once, I said that it is a majority trait that most tomboys have, and is generally the main association, I did not say that it was required for one to be a Tomboy. Inb4 "muh screenshot" It's a greentext fantasy, not a literal definition of every and all Tomboys ever. >which don't necessarily involve physical activity
Yes, I KNOW, given that I GREW up with at least 2 different Tomboys >They all come from [site that can be found on Google]
Relax and see >>9874
>>9893>Most traps, by virtue of catering to males, are "fake bishojo"
I'm talking about looks, not appeal and you're contradicting yourself; Bishonen aren't traps, holy shit (they can be, depending on how feminine they are >most traps go too far beyond the bishonen femininity line
By virtue of wearing girly clothes and maybe makeup, take any typical bishounen character (say Sesshomaru) and put them in a dress and give them some make-up and you'd be hard-pressed to not call it a trap. Again, you're taking real life ideas of crossdressing and femboys and applying it to anime, when frankly if you strip away cosmetics of a bishs you're just going to get a face that is fairly androgynous. >taking definitions extremely literally
I'm taking them as they are, without stretching them past what they mean. >Saying that bishonen traps made for girls and bishojo-looking traps made for guys are the same is like saying that BL and otokonoko hentai are both "yaoi" because there's gay sex in both, despite the styles, audiences and appeals being entirely different.
Because the audience is a marketing thing - from a definitive perspective there is little difference. >uke design
That has to do with how design in general changed over the years, heck it even happens within long-running shows (see pic 1 where Haku in Naruto and Shippuden changes into being more feminine because the art style changed with the time period (late 2000s vs late 90s). >Astolfo or Felix would still look like girls >They're unambiguously female in everything except genitals <the fact that people called them out as traps from the very reveal of their designs say otherwise.
Pic 2 related says otherwise. Astolfo particularly looks female because of female clothing and a female braid, adjust it slightly and it becomes immediately the typical bishi look. >stop pulling definitions out of your ass
You first, lol
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