๐ฝ UNITED STATES POLITICS ๐ฆ
>Thread for the hellish discussion related to the scourge of the earth, the destroyer of nations, the king of coups, the sultan of sanctions, the emir of the embargo, the autocrat of austerity, the doge of deregulation, the baron of busting unions, the prince of privatization, the lord of loan sharks, the patron-saint of proxy wars, the sponsor of settlers, the guarantor of genocides, the Divided $nakkkes of Amerikkkaโข
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https://www.hueylong.com/programs/share-our-wealth/huey-longs-share-our-wealth-speechPrevious Thread:
>>2874250 Trump ally floats Republican pitch for sun-blocking technologieshttps://www.eenews.net/articles/trump-ally-floats-republican-pitch-for-sun-blocking-technologies/He is aware of climate change, and he determined to make things worse
Reminder to have a revolution you would need elements of the military, police, and intelligence services on your side, which communists will NEVER HAVE
>>2876855It makes perfect geopolitical sense, China is the numbah won solar producer so you block out the sun over their skies
>>2876855>He is aware of climate change, and he determined to make things worseI don't know, I'm pretty sure all the climate change people support this one. Even if we cut off all carbon emissions right now they say we will need this stuff to even maintain current temperatures. Short answer is we're fucked no matter what we do.
>>2876861Climate is nothing more than an engineering problem, we patched the hole in the ozone layer
>>2876861>I'm pretty sure all the climate change people support this one.No it isn't. Geoengineering around the main problem, wich is CO2, just kicks the problem down the road and may have unintended consequences.
>>2876863I guess the same way human mortality is just an engineering problem. They keep talking about inventing the technology to make people live forever, but despite the richest people in the world sincerely wanting that technology, it never happens.
>>2876867No I'm pretty rational and I'd like living forever (until I die from external circumstances or decide to kms)
>>2876861>>2876865Doesnโt even do that. It just inverts the problems and makes them even more immediate without actually fixing any of the damage already done.
>>2876867Screw that noise I would simply fuck forever.
>>2876867>The difference is immortality isnโt actually desirable to any rational human beingThis is a skill issue. Purely a skill issue.
>>2876872You say that but Baryonic matter is going to decay eventually and then what will you do?
>>2876874>You say that, and yet most people would want to live indefinitely if they could do so healthilyThis. It's why immortality in fiction always comes with bullshit strings attached like being a vampire or pirate skeleton, or else it's complete and total immortality where you can't die even by being murdered or suicide. If you could live forever at age 21 and kill yourself at any time (but be unable to die otherwise) that would have basically no downsides.
>>2876875Beat my meat in the void
AI bubble collapse status?
>>2876876The downside is you wonโt be able to have any meaningful relationships if youโre the only immortal around
So apparently Trump officially announced his 2028 presidential bid last night, some of the media is playing it off as a "joke" but we all know better.
If it sincerely comes down to Kamala Harris vs Donald Trump again I might actually shoot myself
>>2876880Relationships can be meaningful even if they're temporary.
>>2876883Even after thousands of years and thousands of temporary relationships? I doubt it tbh
>>2876874Speaking of DuPont, the family history is pretty crazy. One of the truest American noble families.
>Pierre Samuel du Pont de Nemours was the son of a Parisian watchmaker and a member of a Burgundian Huguenot family. On his mother's side, he was a descendant of a minor noble family. In 1800, he and his sons, Victor Marie du Pont and รleuthรจre Irรฉnรฉe du Pont, migrated from France to the United States. He used the resources of their Huguenot heritage to found one of the most prominent of American families, and one of its most successful corporations, E. I. du Pont de Nemours and Company, initially established by รleuthรจre Irรฉnรฉe as a gunpowder manufacturer.
>In 1802, รleuthรจre Irรฉnรฉe du Pont established a gunpowder mill on the banks of the Brandywine River near Wilmington, Delaware. The location, named Eleutherian Mills, provided all the necessities to operate the mill: a water flow sufficient to power it, available timber (mainly willow trees) that could be turned into charcoal fine enough to use for gunpowder, and close proximity to the Delaware River to allow for shipments of sulfur and saltpeter, the other ingredients used in the manufacture of gunpowder. There were also nearby stone quarries to provide needed building materials.[6]
>Over time, the Du Pont company grew into the largest black powder manufacturing firm in the world. The family remained in control of the company up to the 1960s,[7] and family trusts still own a substantial amount of the company's stock. This and other companies run by the du Pont family employed up to 10 percent of Delaware's population at its peak.[8] In the 19th century, the Du Pont family maintained their family wealth by carefully arranged marriages between cousins[9] which, at the time, was the norm for many families.https://gutenberg.ca/ebooks/butlersd-warisaracket/butlersd-warisaracket-00-e.html WHO MAKES THE PROFITS? < Take our friends the du Ponts, the powder peopleโdidn't one of them testify before a Senate committee recently that their powder won the war? Or saved the world for democracy? Or something? How did they do in the war? They were a patriotic corporation. Well, the average earnings of the du Ponts for the period 1910 to 1914 were $6,000,000 a year. It wasn't much, but the du Ponts managed to get along on it. Now let's look at their average yearly profit during the war years, 1914 to 1918. Fifty-eight million dollars a year profit, we find! Nearly ten times that of normal times, and the profits of normal times were pretty good. An increase in profits of more than 950 per cent. >The family played a large part in politics during the 18th and 19th centuries and assisted in negotiations for the Treaty of Paris and the Louisiana Purchase. Both T. Coleman and Henry A. du Pont served as U.S. senators. Pierre S. du Pont, IV served as Governor of Delaware.https://ktla.com/news/du-pont-heir-convicted-of-raping-daughter-3-spared-prison/ Du Pont Heir Convicted of Raping Daughter, 3, Spared Prison <He received an eight-year prison sentence in 2009 for raping his toddler daughter, but the sentencing order signed by a Delaware judge said โdefendant will not fare wellโ in prison and the eight years were suspended.Guess who signed the plea deal with him? Beau Biden, the good son/dead Biden son.
https://whyy.org/articles/dispute-over-sentence-for-du-pont-heir-turns-political/==GOP questions Bidenโs focus in du Pont heir sentencing=
<A sentence of probation for du Pont heir Robert Richards IV on a child rape conviction has sparked a war of words between political leaders in Delaware over Attorney General Beau Bidenโs role in the case. It's a big club, and they're all raping children.
>>2876885These guys were also just as incestuous as the Hapsburgs, they literally built a hospital specifically for their inbred spawn
>>2876880>>2876882I am not, nor will I ever be, referring to magically induced immortality. I refer only to scientifically induced immortality. Itโs still a skill issue regardless though.
>>2876889Youโre not going to engineer your way out of the law of entropy
>>2876884That's why you need the suicide escape route. I suppose the appeal is less immortality as such and more about being able to go out completely on your own terms, at a time of your choosing, without the scourge of aging.
>>2876891Our current understanding of the universe not complete. Besides, thatโs not really a problem of immortality now is it?
>>2876892Then what you want isnโt immortality
>>2876891>Youโre not going to engineer your way out of the law of entropyCircling back around to the original point, now apply that to geoengineering an entire planet.
>>2876894Depends on your meaning of the term I guess. Most people refer to vampires and Tolkein elves as "immortal" even though neither are unkillable. They simply can't die of old age.
>>2876897We already changed the climate unintentionally through industrialization and brought European forests back after they were mostly cleared during feudalism, changing the climate would be a much easier feat than immortality or FTL travel.
>>2876899Just get a bank loan, itโs not hard
>>2876901Materially expensive
>>2876902So was industrialization, we did it anyway
>>2876903This is significantly more expensive
>>2876900>changing the climate would be a much easier feat than immortality or FTL travelOne of those is theoretically impossible, the other is debatable
>>2876904Expense doesnโt matter when something is a necessity.
>>2876900That climate change was an increase in entropy. Now you are talking about how to reverse that entropy of the most complex system we know of. It's much harder to decrease entropy than increase it.
Take resource extraction and accumulation for example. All worthwhile resources to extract are so because they exist in a state of low entropy. We use them and then they get put into a state of higher entropy where they become almost impossible to accumulate again. Think of how much gold or other precious metals are scattered into little pieces in landfills around the world, or how about the helium we mined which is now in the exosphere? Or how about the carbon itself? It took a long time for that entropy to be decreased to the point it became a useful fuel for us and then we increased the entropy to a point where it is almost impossible to reaccumulate it in any reasonable timeframe.
>>2876906Expenses matter a lot when you canโt afford them, and you have more immediate expenses to take care of.
>>2876909You are spouting truisms void of any class politics and you should kill yourself. Not the anon you are replying to but my god you are a piece of shit.
>>2876791unfortunately for mamdani he promised during his campaign that he would arrest netenyahu. he should have known he would not be able to do it if he wasn't at least willing to fire the nypd commissioner. as far as the maduro shit goes, i think they're just pointing out the funny irony of the situation. the contrast of him being unable to arrest a genocidal fascist and unable to stop the prosecution of a communist
>>2876910Climate change is a class issue, and the way it is handled affects class itself.
>>2876909>>2876906>>2876904I thought we are all Marxists here? Money is imaginary numbers which represent the underlying labor time. All labor time spent fighting climate change is labor time that can't be used for anything else we need to do.
>>2876914Weโre not talking about money. Itโs about actual material costs.
>>2876915>Material costsWhich is also ultimately labor time. It's not about printing money or not, it's about how much productive power of the labor force will have to be diverted to simply mitigating this issue to get back to the point we were already at.
>>2876914If we donโt fight climate change we canโt have any form of industrial society let alone socialism
why cant mamdani fire the NYPD commisioner? its a political position chosen by the mayor. he can't fire the chif of the department which is a internal position filled by an internal officer.
>>2876916>get back to the point we were already atOh thatโs not happening. Weโre past that now. Weโll have to do things a little differently now.
>>2876919Short answer is because the NYPD is a power in and unto itself and would likely coup Mamdani if he tried anything that brazen. My analysis (cope really) is that Mamdani is trying to take the long way around both by building up grassroots support with genuinely helpful policies before trying to goad the NYPD into making the first move so he doesn't come off as the aggressor
>>2876921thanks. he says eric adams appointed her and stacked the top with NYPD officers dedicated to fighting corruption lmao.
i doubt even he truly believes that. but i suspect
>>2876923this makes a lot of sense if Adams stacked the top ranks with Tisch, NYPD loyalists, pro-israel types, and they had to cut a deal.
>>2876857Any "revolution" would Neo-New Dealists and neo-Longist defeating a business coup with the help of a faction of the military,police and intelligence. There are those sympathetic to that but not so much Marxism-Leninism
Brazil cancelled the visas of US officials who planned to monitor the elections
>>2876857>and intelligence services on your side, which communists will NEVER HAVEaccording to leftypol all communist parties in the third world are CIA backed, so I dont think its imposible they eventually back one in the US
>>2876929What specifically are you referring to? Maoist groups? The Tigrayans?
>>2876927That would be roughly equivalent to the KMT revolution in 1911, maybe that provides the space needed for real communist organizing, maybe it doesnโt
>>2876941Americans get what they deserve
>>2876941>I think things progressively shift in one direction or another. I think nobody would dispute that in the opposite case would they? I do not agree with you.
>>2876952Well it has always been the case everywhere in the world. Rome wasn't built in a day.
>>2876941>I think modern communists have a very self-defeating attitudesYes
>>2876947>>2876947>>2876947>For one this notion that revolution only happens through insurrection and violent conflict I think is wrong<They think they can appeal to the bourgeoisie LOL
>I think the idea that the worse and more far-right the government is, the better the chances for this theoretical communist insurrection to happen are obviously false.Based on what?
>The more right wing the government is, the more they enable those even farther-right than them to gain power, in the same way the more left the government is, the more they enable those further left of them to gain powerPretty assumptious statement for multiple reasons., and vague. What do you even mean by โleft-wing governmentโ? Why do you assume the similarities of both the mentioned governments? Did you even account for incompetence?
>I think they key is to keep pushing every level towards the left even if the elements in power are barely left sympathetic at all and by no means want to go further left, it's better than a right leaning government.Oh, so youโre just attempting to push a pro electoralist narrative without a workerโs party.
>>2876881its time, biden 2028, the only guy who could beat trump.
>>2876929what is with the whole "communists when i dont like them are CIA/created by imperialism?", i've seen this with pol pot, shining path, hell even mao or in some cases lenin and stalin (mostly from nazis who insist wall street made the bolsheviks)
its mostly brezhnevites and dengites i see saying this though, if you are are only willing to stomach some crimes commited by communists but not others, shut up, history is on the proletariats side, own up to it.
>>2876954A specter is haunting America, the specter of the DSA. All of the old powers have risen up and suspended their rivalries to combat this specter. Democrat and Republican. Chud sons and woke daughters. Abundance liberals and malthusian ecofascists.
>>2876956I don't think it's useful to think of society as a sliding scale of how good tkings are going I the first place and the attempt to argue otherwise is absurd reductionism that only benefits people who have predetermined views on what should be done (ie. incrementalism).
There are useful and damaging developments happening along multiple axes of society, some that can be put to use, others that must be overcome. It is a matter of developing strategically, not a homogenous morass of better or worse.
>>2876958<They think they can appeal to the bourgeoisie It's not about appealing to the bourgeoisie it's about using the mechanisms that are actually at your disposal currently.
>Based on what?Based on provide me the example that says different.
>Pretty assumptious statement for multiple reasons., and vague. What do you even mean by โleft-wing governmentโ? Why do you assume the similarities of both the mentioned governments? Did you even account for incompetence?Even account for incompetence? This is part of that self-defeating attitude.
>Just let the government do whatever and implement farther right governance and eventually they'll become so incompetent they just collapse and then we just waltz into power!
>Oh, so youโre just attempting to push a pro electoralist narrative without a workerโs party.Maybe someone should organize this worker's party and do some tangible praxis instead of just waiting for the government to just collapse all of it's own accord.
Like this poster points out:
>>2876857>Reminder to have a revolution you would need elements of the military, police, and intelligence services on your side, which communists will NEVER HAVEYou can't do an insurrection without some level of buy in of the enforcement arm of the government. So you think this mass defection becomes easier the more they purge liberals and fill the ranks with the most fascistic elements? This makes the mass-defection more likely or less?
>>2876958American workers have no desire for labor unions let alone a workerโs party
>>2876970The uncomfortable TVRTHNVKE is that the worker's party will have to be built on the bones of the Democrats via the most radicalized elements of the DSA. Anything else is at best wishful thinking and is at worst actively counterproductive: CPUSA is a nonstarter, the PSL is only interested in publicity stunts, other parties are either ridiculous personality cults or insignificant cells of wannabee revolutionaries who spend most of their time fantasizing about killing people in rival left wing groups.
And that's the tea, sis
>>2876970>So you think this mass defection becomes easier the more they purge liberals and fill the ranks with the most fascistic elements? This makes the mass-defection more likely or less?potentially this creates a scenario where having mass purges of the old creates the framework for dual power systems to develop.
People are still too comfortable even with everything getting worse, itโs the old frog boiling in water meme
>>2876925It's just "soft on crime" is the number one attack that gets leveled against any left-wing politicians in the US. And it's extremely easy for the media to create a perception that the mayor is letting crime happen because in a large city shocking violent incidents will happen at some point. All you need is one stabbing incident (like the one this week) and the media can run ten hundred stories about how this is only happening because the mayor fired the police commissioner and hates the NYPD and voters will believe it.
>>2876970>It's not about appealing to the bourgeoisie it's about using the mechanisms that are actually at your disposal currentlySo appealing to the bourgeoisie, got it.
>Based on provide me the example that says differentIโm not the one making a claim
>This is part of that self-defeating attitude. As opposed to being an electoralist who has already given their consent?
>Just let the government do whatever and implement farther right governance and eventually they'll become so incompetent they just collapse and then we just waltz into power!Seems to be moving that way
>Maybe someone should organize this worker's party and do some tangible praxis instead of just waiting for the government to just collapse all of it's own accord.Cool idea. Itโs shame that you started off by telling everyone to pokemon go to the polls instead.
>Reminder to have a revolution you would need elements of the military, police, and intelligence services on your side, which communists will NEVER HAVEThat poster is both silly for saying that is a mandatory requirement for communists, and self defeatist, something you supposedly decry.
>You can't do an insurrection without some level of buy in of the enforcement arm of the government.<pls buy into the pyramid scheme, I pwomise youโโll win bigNo
>>2876971Self defeatist
>>2876981They also purposefully ignore the statistics showing that the murder rate in NYC is probably the lowest its ever been and just hope that the audience assumes it's a crime infested socialist hellhole where white people are being lynched in the streets and they'll believe it because we live in a post-truth society where what people want to believe takes precedence over reality
You guys would be in Nazi Germany as communists are getting rounded up and put into concentration camps going:
>Don't you see how this is good for us!
>>2876986Iโm not voting
>>2876986 me
I'm thinking y'alls entire theory boils down to:
>The more victimized and antagonized you are the more street cred you have which means the more likelihood of people joining your movement so the same can happen to them!10,00 autism score 12D chess move.
>>2876987Yeah and you won't build the barricades or dig the trenches either.
>>2876990What is the strategic importance of building a barricade or a trench?
>>2876988An essential tenant of Schizo Maximalism is that the first world in general and Americans in particular are all equally guilty of centuries of crimes, from the wealthiest politician to an immigrant baby, and they all need to collectively suffer an arbitrary amount which will somehow restore the imperial periphery. Anything less than total agreement with this is labeled as fascism
>>2876991Maybe you should study up on warfare doctrines for those answers since you are planning to defeat the US armed forces in a civil war
>>2876983> Self defeatistItโs literally true, American workers see becoming petit bourgeois through gambling, labor aristocratic jobs, and financial speculation as far easier and more worthwhile than fighting for socialism. Any sort of solidarity outside internet comments and the occasional donation have been entirely bred and engineered out of the populace, they donโt see any point in personal sacrifice in the present for a gain in the future, this is also why birthrates and military recruitment are down below replacement levels.
>>2876993You proposed barricades and trenches, and I asked why.
>>2876994Boy howdy I love posting vibes based "analysis" on why revolution is impossible and presenting it as some scientific fact to…uh…own the libs?
>>2876995I already gave you an answer, because you will need to do those and much more to win your hypothetical civil war. The main point is you will certainly never be capable of expending that much effort so who are you kidding about your "strategy" of winning a civil war.
>>2876996There is a world beyond America, America is only 4% of the worldโs population, theyโre not important
("America doesn't matter" he says, repeatedly, in the America thread every day) >>2876996Explain why else union participation is below 10% and why โsocialismโ is only popular among the downwardly mobile petit bourgeois and PMC
>>2876997>because you will need to do thoseWhy
>>2877000Because those and much more are needed to win the civil war.
>>2877001>Because those and much more are needed to win the civil warWhy
>>2877002Because the enemy is going to shoot back at you goober.
>>2877003Plenty of concrete and car engines
>>2877001A civil war you think 65 year old suburbanites will fight and survive LOL
>>2877010The US military is not lacking able-bodied personnel. How many guys do you have?
>>2877011They literally fail to meet recruitment goals every single year since GWOT was exposed as fraud.
>>2877011Also civil war is not happening and never will happen, itโs literally never happened in any first world country
(USER WAS ALREADY BANNED) >>2877012But how many guys do you have and what is your estimate of how far their levels would have to fall to make a civil war winnable?
>>2877013Ok, then what are we even disagreeing on?
>>2877009I think his brain is melting.
Heโs sounds demented, more than the usual.
>>2877012And on their recruitment problems:
>Military personnel and compensation account for about 23% of the Department of Defense (DoD) budget, or roughly 3% of the total U.S. federal budget.If they doubled the salaries they could probably more than double their recruitment numbers. They have the money.
>>2877014>>2877016You're arguing with a known troll who's only character trait is ban evading over and over again to promote doomerist one liners in this thread
>>2877009it's weird the way he memorizes the names of literally-whos in media so he can rattle them off rapidfire while shitting on them
>>2877010Why are we pretending that you don't only need 5% of the population and the disaffected youth to pretty much have a civil war.
>>2877009I presume he was not the one wrote these jokes so it's not surprising he is completely wooden. It really is increasingly pathetic for the truly die-hard followers, because he was genuinely funny and charismatic at one point. And the difference is more and more obvious, I mean he really is decrepit nowadays.
shit ain't bad enough yet. usa needs another 50 years
>>2877041>half a centuryAt the pace things are going, it is looking like a half a decade max
>>2877042nope. you need widespread starvation. discontent over declining quality of life is not enough. life can get much much worse still
>>2877044Yeah well life could also be a whole lot better too
>>2877013>Also civil war is not happening and never will happen, itโs literally never happened in any first world country??????????????????????? now you've got me curious if this is actually true. obviously the US civil war doesn't count because the USA was still semi-agrarian and used slave labor back then… but then you have stuff like the troubles in ireland which are civil conflicts in a first world country but not necessarily a full scale civil war…. then you have stuff like the breakup of yugoslavia, but yugoslavia was neither "first world" in the cold war sense of the world or "first world" in the developmental sense of the word…. how about the Ukrainian civil war?
>>2877017I'm trying and been trying to turn the discussion here to a more productive avenue. I guess the reason I say discussion instead of writing long articles and treatises and manifestos is I'm not claiming to have all the answers. I'd like some intelligent input but it seems most here just want to turn everything into name calling and screaming match where nobody can articulate what they are even advocating for. I was just thinking for a good bit of what to say because I already know from years of experience how these conversations always devolve so I think it will be best for me to elaborate on my observations and idea at as little bit at a time so they can actually be responded to individually and not just turn into the same stupid copypasta braindead back and forth screaming match that I've seen 100s or 1000s of times before.
I think the main problems facing the left as I've seen them are: Moralism, Pessimism, Cynicism, and Fatalism which comes in both varieties Pessimistic-Fatalism and Optimistic-Fatalism.
Now how do we define the left in the most grandest and inclusive terms assuming that the people who comprise the left are acting in good faith and working towards the same goals. I would say that in the simplest terms we all want a "dictatorship of the proletariat" where the proletariat will use it's "political supremacy" to "wrest by degrees" all power from the bourgeoisie and create a classless society. Now assuming we aren't arguing on those basic goals the only thing left(no pun intended) is discussing the best strategies to achieve that basic goal of the DoTP. This strategy has many hypothetical forms and some may be better than others in certain places and times and it is also debatable if the DoTP has ever been established anywhere ever. But that doesn't even matter, the only question that faces us is what is the best actionable strategy to achieve that in the country and time we live in. Fatalism is not a strategy. It's not worth discussing because if you believe that doing nothing will eventually lead you to your goal than doing something can't possibly keep you from it either so it's not worth mentioning advocating for doing nothing as a strategy.
>pic unrelated, I just know you are all very visually minded people so some kind of picture must be included to get your attention so I'm picking one at almost random. >>2877045yes but that is not as strong a motivator
>>2877044There was no mass starvation during the Cuban Revolution and it still happened. Declining conditions from a previous point and unaffordability is enough
>>2877048Depends who you ask and how you're looking at it. I can say that for most Americans, even those that are relatively well off, they look at the current political establishment and state of the world and dont see a future. People are apathetic and checked out because they see the end approaching but to actually acknowledge it without presenting a solution would drive them mad so they distract themselves with trivial pursuits for leisure as the world crumbles around them. Most people have the sense that things are bleak and could be a lot better, and that's something we should capitalize on
>>2877049usanian living conditions are nowhere near that of the cuban working class before the cuban revolution. usanians have so much more to lose still. even now they live in relative luxury
>>2877055Itโs better, but we should always strive for improvement
>>2877055Socialism should be when we get even more hentai.
>>2877052why do other countries hate us? we did nothing wrong! we just brought them freedom n shit
>>2877041the earth doesnt have that
>CLIMATE DOOMERreality consistently outpaces the climate scientist's most pessimistic models
>>2877055increasingly common mamdani W
>>2877054Living conditions alone isn't what causes revolution. Declining conditions can trigger things especially when it happens rapidly and there is no reformist to wall it such as what happened during the Great Depression. Usians were living large in the 20s for it to flip in a few short years where many Usians started becoming socialists and leaning towards revolution
>>2877073Maybe the fascists should've won. From a world-historic position maybe this is the progressive position. Maybe the reformists just let capitalism live longer for no reason and cumulatively lead to more suffering. Maybe.
>>2877069climate change is good because it destabilizes capitalism
>but le planet will be destroyedearth existed before humans and will continue existing long after humans
>>2877074>Maybe the fascists should've won. Well that's like you opinion man. I have my own personal reasons for not wanting the fascists to win, but you do you.
>>2877075the environment (as it has currently existed) predates capitalism by thousands of years
you are unironically giving capitalism too much power
or more likely you are holding onto a position from your "old" reactionary self for dear life while pretending it's a leftist position
>>2877073> if not for the reformists, the fucking fascists would've wonfalse nuke>>2877074<Maybe the fascists should've won. From a world-historic position maybe this is the progressive position.false nukefed 2 fed communication
>>2877078>you are unironically giving capitalism too much powerwhat does this even mean? capitalism is responsible for climate change
>>2877073Where did I desire that? I believe you are more likely to see New Deal 2.0 than violent revolution or the fascist takeover
unless socdem is fash to you >>2877079Care to offer a counter-argument outside of severely dated meme phrases?
PROLETARIAN DICTATORSHIP NOW
>>2877081>Where did I desire thatWhere did anyone say you desired that?
>>2877084See:
>>2877082>Care to offer a counter-argument outside of severely dated meme phrases? >>2877087not the same anon. here's your "counter argument" that you didn't really deserve
>>2877088 >>2877073Look up the International Unemployment Day by the CPUSA in the 1930s having 50,000 people at the rally which dwarfs the Nazi garden march. You overestimate how likely a fascist takeover was, if the reformist failed fascist would not have been next which is why the New Deal happened in the first place which ironically had some inspiration from แดuแดlossnW
>>2877088> the red army defeated fascism, not "reformists"Off the top what does that have to do what was discussed about the fascist movement in America. How does the red army relate to it?
>>2877091because fascism was an international movement and it was not defeated by reformists. are you stupid? As for America it was never defeated. It died down but continued to fester for decades, which is why this country is so shit today. Nobody in the business plot even got punished, and the grandson of one of the guys involved eventually became president and started the GWOT.
I fucking want to vomit every time I heard your theory about how you guys would've won a violent insurrection if not for those meddling kids and their pup named concessions from bourgeoisie.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1873/01/indifferentism.htm
> โIf in the political struggle against the bourgeois state the workers succeed only in extracting concessions, then they are guilty of compromise; and this is contrary to eternal principles. All peaceful movements, such as those in which English and American workers have the bad habit of engaging, are therefore to be despised. Workers must not struggle to establish a legal limit to the working day, because this is to compromise with the masters, who can then only exploit them for ten or twelve hours, instead of fourteen or sixteen. They must not even exert themselves in order legally to prohibit the employment in factories of children under the age of ten, because by such means they do not bring to an end the exploitation of children over ten: they thus commit a new compromise, which stains the purity of the eternal principles.
< It cannot be denied that if the apostles of political indifferentism were to express themselves with such clarity, the working class would make short shrift of them and would resent being insulted by these doctrinaire bourgeois and displaced gentlemen, who are so stupid or so naive as to attempt to deny to the working class any real means of struggle. For all arms with which to fight must be drawn from society as it is and the fatal conditions of this struggle have the misfortune of not being easily adapted to the idealistic fantasies which these doctors in social science have exalted as divinities, under the names of Freedom, Autonomy, Anarchy. However the working-class movement is today so powerful that these philanthropic sectarians dare not repeat for the economic struggle those great truths which they used incessantly to proclaim on the subject of the political struggle. They are simply too cowardly to apply them any longer to strikes, combinations, single-craft unions, laws on the labour of women and children, on the limitation of the working day etc., etc. >>2877093Let's put it more directly. If these concessions really had the power to stop your insurrection, how do you honestly think you would've won an armed struggle if things simply got worse?
>>2877094A kind of revolutionary organization would have to be a parallel to a state, so say, if this was a deeply rooted and far branching movement I expected there is a red army, there is a kind of central political body and central executive body, there are cooperation chains between base syndicates instead of value and exploitation chains supplying the political body, there's a internal communication network and some kind of outside communication body with the rest of the world. This alone can withstand a rebellion.
>>2877095We're not talking about baseless hypotheticals. The premise as I understand it is if no concessions were extracted from the government, a communist force capable of beating all other armed powers in the country whether they be liberal or fascist would've prevailed. Defend this point.
>>2877091It was growing in popularity at the time and was increasingly becoming a more powerful force which is also why FDR had pinks in his administration because of how prevalent it had become. Blair Mountain was recent memory and it was getting to become a more popular position which is why the New Deal took the momentum the country was heading to
>>2877098So you are really arguing if no concessions were offered, these same people who were defeated and pacified by small concessions would've carried all the way through to winning a civil war?
>>2877100Yes because those concessions were given because of a real movement towards more revolutionary politics.
>>2877073>And if not for the reformists, the fucking fascists would've wonfascism did win and it was thanks to the reformists
>>2877094A more accurate way to put is that if concessions can stop an insurrection, then insurrection was never a possibility in the first place.
>>2877100And I guess the next logical question is how can we stop the government from offering concessions since it is "the real movement's" kryptonite. Can't they always pull that trump card out of their pocket?
>>2877100so you think concessions were made because they would have won easily regardless? do you people even bother to activate a single neuron before you post your garbage?
>>2877107>so you think concessions were made because they would have won easily regardless? do you people even bother to activate a single neuron before you post your garbage?That is kind of the original point I was making neuron appreciator.
>>2877111We're way past that dog. I'm trying to just make my opponents actually take an actual view so it can be discussed.
>>2877112
Yupp all CAPS screaming through text surely helps your argument(whatever it actually is.)
>>2877091>asks for counter arguments>gets several interrelated counter arguments>only reads one of them>ignores the rest>shifts the goalpost againi hate u
>>2877115Your first point completely invalidates the rest if you won't defend it. If I started the list with,
- Jesus comes back and smites all the sinners
There is no point to move on to point 2
>>2877114you not only do not understand what you read, you do not even know what you yourself wrote two posts earlier. clown.
>>2877117What did I read? I can't read it again because it's deleted now.
>>2877116it doesn't and you suck
>>2877070Communism should be seen as something not actively antagonistic towards most of the population, yes. None of that causes it to remove its "revolutionary edge", unless you think that communism is just when you hoot and holler about total AmeriKKKan death and bitch about "treats". At which point you care more about the aesthetics than actual results
>>2877106That's the funny thing about all this. What Mamdani is doing is pretty similar to what "Actual Existing Socialism" does and is hailed by leftists as revolutionary: implement popular policies that benefit a lot of people. Obviously nothing in that is inherently socialist, and I'm not saying Mamdani is a socialist either, but it really says a lot that basic populism and promoting the idea that Better Things Are Possible is some kind of radical communist position in the US of A
>>2877047You guys should read this post. None of you will ever reply to it unless I point it out again, and even then it is still debatable. I wrote it in the most untriggering way possible. Because it contains no triggers with which to nitpick it will be simply ignored. That is what every "discussion" comes down to, just scanning the text, looking for psychological PTSD triggers and then going off on a tangent from those. If someone writes the most diplomatic text possible asking for intellectual input, it will simply be ignored. You are all just highly emotional beings not capable of non-emotional, rational discussion.
>>2877126completely schizophrenic takeaway
>>2877106Bernie honored Daniel Ortega and has not condemned him yet
>>2877127>>2877047fwiw I read your post fully and I largely agree with you, I just didn't have anything to add so I didn't say anything
>>2877126the joke is that "social fascism" theory was abandoned for "popular front" when material conditions demanded it but retards 100 years later pretend "social fascism" theory is still relevant as if this were weimar germany, as if AOC has already killed Iron Felix or some shit
>>2877124>really says a lot that basic populism and promoting the idea that Better Things Are Possible is some kind of radical communist position in the US of AThat is pretty much Huey Long and the Share the Wealth program. That is seen as crazed communism
>>2877131I know that is the case too(but I try to keep myself from assooming such things for fear of ego) but still, like I said I'm looking for intelligent input. C'mon guys, give me intelligent input.
>>2877047>Moralism, Pessimism, Cynicism, and Fatalismwhat's the difference between pessimism and cynicism in your view?
>Pessimistic-Fatalism and Optimistic-Fatalism.am i correct to suppose that you correlate optimistic fatalism with moralism in a similar manner to the more direct correlation of pessimism to fatalism? how does cynicism relate to fatalism?
>Now how do we define the left in the most grandest and inclusive termsthis question would actually be triggering for the one guy who insists against using the term 'left' because in his view it denotes 'left of capital' (that is, if he had bothered to read it). i think the broad historical scope of what it means to be politically 'left' is defined in opposition to ruling class interests rather than being an expression of any specific working class interest. proletarian communism to me is a historically specific form of radical 'leftism'.
>assuming that the people who comprise the left are acting in good faith and working towards the same goals.>assuming we aren't arguing on those basic goalsthese two assumptions are practically unjustified in our cultural climate. you simply cannot assume good faith from people, and worse you cannot even assume that people coming at it in good faith will be able to agree on basic goals. that's why most discussion is unproductive. we have yet to settle on a common viewpoint and vocabulary even within our own narrow niche. i don't know what the solution to this problem is.
>>2877139First off, let me say thank you for the feigned-ignorant sophistic arguments I knew you were always capable of /leftypol/. Let's get down to it.
>what's the difference between pessimism and cynicism in your view?These are defined terms you can look up in a dictionary. Let's do that for you.
>Pessimism is a mental attitude that expects the worst outcome, focuses on the bad parts of a situation, and believes that pain and evil outweigh happiness in life.
>Cynicism is an attitude of general distrust, the belief that people act only out of selfishness, and a rejection of social normsI will get to the rest but I would like to confront you one point at a time so you don't have the option of ignoring any in favor of just seizing on one or the other.
>we have yet to settle on a common viewpoint and vocabulary even within our own narrow niche.
No, most of the vocabulary there, you just don't bother to learn it. Hence we discuss about "elites" instead of the ruling class or bourgeoisie and "masses" instead of proletarians or working class.
What is to be done? Fucking educate them about communism they are not retarded children. Everyone wants the party and the movement no one actually wants to talk to workers about proletarian dictatorship. Why the fuck not?
Go ahead, try to fucking contradict me. Name me one (1) 'communist' party in the west that talks about proletarian dictatorship. It's a big and scary word.
>>2877055Its pretty funny how doomer leftypol is nowadays when back in the day socialism was considered on par or even worst than Nazism. Socialism is now mainstream and the rights crying about communism falls on deaf ears. Socialist and communists parties continue to grow and the public continues to radicalize towards the left.
Even when one of the main issues in America is the funding and backing of protocols of zion the state the American people are opting for the lefts solution and rightly see zionist and rightiods as one in the same. The right is desperately trying to label the left as some foreign entity while they openly commit treason on the daily to prop up a hostile foreign government.
>>2877139My boy, you wrote a lot more and I am prepared to get to it but like I said:
>I will get to the rest but I would like to confront you one point at a time so you don't have the option of ignoring any in favor of just seizing on one or the other. >>2877132>as if AOC has already killed Iron Felix or some shityou are right, she has only collaborated with the genocide of palestinians, no biggie, idk why ultras are so hysterical
>>2877054>the american working class lives in luxurysee video
Topics
0:00 The myth that Americans are wealthy
1:15 Average wealth vs median wealth
3:50 Data on US median wealth
6:42 Wealth inequality (Gini coefficient)
9:31 Poverty and homelessness
10:19 USA vs Europe
12:02 Wealth concentration of US elites
13:28 Distribution of growth in income
15:01 GDP per capita is misleading
21:18 US GDP by sector
23:13 Imputed rent and GDP
25:05 Life expectancy, mortality, etc.
27:10 US healthcare system
28:40 US health system vs OECD
32:58 Ridiculous "Europoor" myth
33:32 Trump cuts taxes on rich
34:27 Trump family corruption
36:20 Insider trading
36:56 Myth of American dream
38:18 Outro
>>2877158hahahahahaha you fucking slimy shifty weasel. why did you omit the word before luxury? you shameless roach
>>2877157yes and the average british worker collaborated in everything the british empire did, but Das Kapital wasn't 33 chapters of Marx seething about British workers. No it was 33 chapters of him describing the oppression of the working class in the most imperialist country on earth with painstaking emprical data to back him. up. The same thing Ben Norton does in the video attached to this post:
>>2877160relative luxury doesn't matter. a prole in South Africa lives better than a bronze age king. Watch the video or don't. Ben Norton isn't a guy who goes easy on US imperialism.
>>2877160i also added a word. you said "usanians" rather than mentioning the working class because your entire position relies on collapsing class and upholding nation
>>2877160americans (without class distinction) live in relative (rather than absolute) luxury. that is actually a pretty defensible position. too bad it relies on ignoring class.
>>2877167>>2877168so your position is that the USA working class lives in as bad conditions as the average working class around the world? think about it now. is that really the point you want to make.
>>2877168I think even more than quantifying the exploiter classes or exploited classes, all that matter is only the exploiter classes matter anything when it comes terms of actual laws in the practiced reality.
>>2877170You know, like, all of us in the exploited classes could vote:
>why don't we get a pay raise?That's the whole idea of the thing.
>>2877169>so your position is that the USA working class lives in as bad conditions as the average working class around the world? Thank you for asking.
No.>think about it now. is that really the point you want to make.it is not the point I wanted to make nor it is the point I made. Next question.
>>2877163TWists are just self-loathing revenge fetishists, they're not seeking a better world for everyone. I would call them glowies considering how eager they are to advance capitalist zero-sum narratives, but that would be giving them too much credit.
Contrary to how some think, defense of the US working class from the US ruling class does not constitute a denial of any of the following truths:
- that the US commits atrocities
- that the US is imperialist
- that some of the imperialist loot gets redistributed through social programs
- that imperialism benefits Americans in the short term
- that the American working class should be more disciplined and militant
Nor does it constitute a denial that:
- there is an American working class
- that class struggle is possible in a settler-colonial nation (like the US, Israel, or any of the South American nations)
- that the workers of the world can and must unite across nations and "worlds" to defeat imperialism
- that the long term destructive effects of imperialism far far outweigh the short term "benefits" that the imperial core working class may experience from "social fascism"
>>2877177> that the US commits atrocities> that the US is imperialistKinda? But I guess you underestimate how stupid the average American is. Even these people on this board will probably defend their favorite retarded celebrity.
As far as atrocities I have heard two first hand accounts of atrocidads by former soldiers first hand.
>>2877181Like anyways, how I feel as a millenial is that whole War on Terror, Iraq, Afghanistan war shit wasn't a joke dude. Like some people need to fucking die. I'm not fucking playing around. I'm kinda steadfast in this position.
>>2877181> But I guess you underestimate how stupid the average American is.How did that post underestimate stupidity? It made no claims one way nor another about stupidity. If you want my honest opinion Americans are on average very stupid and susceptible to false consciousness, class collaboration, etc. That is part of the problem that needs to be solved.
>>2877177truke of the decade
>>2877183>Like anyways, how I feel as a millenial is that whole War on Terror, Iraq, Afghanistan war shit wasn't a joke dude. Like some people need to fucking die."As a millenial" the war on terror is how I first became disgusted with the US government. Abu Ghraib especially left me disgusted. We used 9/11 as an excuse to destroy 7 nations that had nothing to do with it.
the 9/11 hijackers were overwhelmingly Saudi Arabian, with a couple from Egypt, Lebanon, and UAE… but we invaded and/or bombed Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Somalia, Yemen… nations that had nothing to do with it… and some of the hijackers had mossad connections that went completely unscrutinized at the time… and Osama Bin Laden had connections with US politicians and the CIA. So to me the war "on" terror was a war
of terror
>>2877184You replied to me and I was like double checking like I didn't write that. Yes you are spitting straight facts. Yes Americans are fucking retarded but they're not bad people on average.
>>2877186Yes, the same I determined myself to be the US government at a certain point in Obama's terms, but still the Trump decade has been funny, but at the same time I wish there could be something better. Maybe taking all the corruption and interests groups out of government? Is it really too much to ask for? Overturning these faggot Republicans Citizens United. If it is really too much because such and such faggot holds some symbolic position we can also kill these people? If the future depends on it? You'd rather die in a ditch begging the sky for the drone to not play around and slowly execute you vs. a time where you could realistically assassinate any person you want?
>>2877190Yes true and I am against these people almost as completely. Yes I wish every single politician in DC to be dispossessed. Of course, none of them are good.
>>2877191important correction lmao
Ok, let's examine how the population of the "working-class" could be compelled to take up arms. I think yes, this is such a country where hypothetically you could convince the average shmo to pick up his AR-15, but for what? It has so far, thus been for pro-bono defense of the government. There is no such proof that you will out do the government with your AR-15s or whatever except for maybe a few instances, Dorner and Dallas Sniper, the two all-time cop-killers. Otherwise I guess just killing random members of the public like Sleepy Eyes Paddock. Or maybe Luigi deserves the top spot for eliminating the highest networth target.
>>2877143>let me say thank you for the feigned-ignorant sophistic argumentsi was legitimately asking. this is a part of the broader problem that you can't even ask a simple question without it being interpreted as an attack.
>These are defined terms you can look up in a dictionary. yeah, i know. i was not asking you for dictionary definitions, i was asking you to elaborate on the specific ways you are employing these terms in your analysis so as to better understand your estimation of the problems we're discussing.
>>2877144>most of the vocabulary there, you just don't bother to learn it.sure, i can agree that the language exists to discuss this stuff, but what exactly is meant by such words as 'dictatorship' and 'proletarian' are hotly contested even amongst ideological communists. that's not to suggest that any answer is as good as any other, or that there is no answer, but rather to simply observe the present state of discourse.
>Hence we discuss about "elites" instead of the ruling class or bourgeoisie and "masses" instead of proletarians or working class.the populist language of "elites" and "masses" you are talking about is the generic ahistorical rhetorical form of 'left' politics as I was describing it. i agree with you completely that we ought to instead be discussing things in terms of class, specifically bourgeois and proletarian, but that doesn't settle the objective lack of a general consensus regarding class analysis both within the broader 'left' as well as the communist movement.
>>2877203>i was legitimately asking. this is a part of the broader problem that you can't even ask a simple question without it being interpreted as an attack.>>2877203>yeah, i know. i was not asking you for dictionary definitions, i was asking you to elaborate on the specific ways you are employing these terms in your analysis so as to better understand your estimation of the problems we're discussing.Well it was as simple as looking it up in the dictionary now wasn't it?
>>2877200the people wanting revolution isn't enough. the upper classes must no longer be able to rule in the old way for revolution to take root
>>2877177It wasn't imperialism that grew the American middle class. It was the new deal and the U.S being the only industrial power that didn't get attacked in ww2. U.S imperialism has always been a black hole where all money gets sacked into. The military isnt winning any wars, isn't significantly employing people, they aren't producing new technologies or creating local manufacturing demand. You could maybe argue imperialism brought short term benefits during the late 19th and early 20th century.
I mean the U.S ruling class is stripping the copper wiring out the nation to keep the war machine going for another month on an unwinnable war thats only increasing inflation.
>>2877205Ok I agree, this is the truth, we need to grab it ahold from them wherever possible. We need to leave these people no room to live anywhere. We out number, we can make their life not possible by confronting them anywhere they appear. That's what we need to do and some are already trying it, even posters on here.
>>2877207blanquism is cringe and no amount of assassinations will accomplish anything beyond spectacle
>>2877204>Well it was as simple as looking it up in the dictionary now wasn't it?it partially clarifies the distinction between cynicism and pessimism, though i still think it's ambiguous because typically political pessimistic fatalism as i understand it is motivated precisely by political cynicism. you also left untouched my question about whether you associate optimistic fatalism with moralism. again, nothing i am saying here is meant to contest anything you said. just looking for some small clarifications so as to understand exactly what you mean.
>>2877208I don't know, nobody regrets Kirk amirite? I don't think anyone would regret seeing one of these hypothetical others getting ended.
>>2877209>it partially clarifies the distinction between cynicism and pessimism, though i still think it's ambiguous because typically political pessimistic fatalism as i understand it is motivated precisely by political cynicism. I don't know what you understand, why not source your claim. The definitions have very clear definitions in the definitions I quoted to you and you can understand the first post from that standpoint. Nuh uh you don't just get to write lot of bullshit and play retarded.
>>2877211>The definitions have very clear definitions yeah, you know what, you got it all figured out. no need for me to butt in. carry-on.
>>2877212Do you dispute that?
>>2877213no, i don't dispute that your definitions have very fine definitions in the definitions you quoted. i regret having bothered to attempt to question how you think these two terms with overlapping and imperfectly synonymous definitions relate to and distinguish from each other in your analysis.
Pessimism is when you think everything sucks. Cynicism is when you think everything sucks but you're smug about it.
>>2877215No they are not overlapping and not synonyms do you want me to ask you an LLM the difference and to explain my post on your behalf? I have not consulted one at all, I just want to know if that could help you potentially.
>>2877218Hey+google
+siri
+chatgpt
+claude
you can ask any of them, I spoke the one correct English and you can go back and forth with them until you understood it in your native language.
>>2877210there are a million kirks in reserve. vanishingly few are the americans with the gumption to pick up a rifle and do something about injustice, imagine what he could've accomplished putting that energy into true revolutionary Party work shoulder to shoulder leader the masses
>>2877221We really should kill them all, but even if we can't do that, we should make their lives unlivable anywhere they go. That's what numbers should do.
>>2877218>No they are not overlappingthere is a very clear overlap between political pessimism and political cynicism because, where politics are concerned, consistent anticipation of the worst outcome is identical to distrust of ruling political institutions and norms. that is to say, one is typically pessimism about future political outcomes because they are cynical about the political institutions in power which affect outcomes through the application of power. the two seem to me to be intimately related in a way that is worth articulating.
>>2877139>am i correct to suppose that you correlate optimistic fatalism with moralism in a similar manner to the more direct correlation of pessimism to fatalism? how does cynicism relate to fatalism?No I wouldn't conflate or correlate optimistic fatalism with moralism. I wanted to say in my original post another synonym for optimistic fatalism might be called "magical thinking" why don't you look that up. Cynicism is distinct from pessimism as already described, pessimistic thought could include cynicism, but these are two distinct concepts.
>>2877225Where is any better? Any nations are free to lead the revolution. I am to follow that true Marxist nation Marx PBUG,
>>2877226Are they? Can you tell us again which president recently got kidnapped by who
>>2877227And who is now the leader of said country who the leader got kidnapped?
>>2877227maduro was betrayed by a member of his circle who turned the air defenses off. the american military just got spanked in Hormuz so there's no excuse anymore
>>2877224>another synonym for optimistic fatalism might be called "magical thinking"the better comparison would be to wishful thinking.
>Cynicism is distinct from pessimism as already describedi never denied that they were distinct.
>pessimistic thought could include cynicism, but these are two distinct concepts.my interest is to hear you elaborate on this conditional relation between the two. what forms of political pessimism would you say do not include cynicism? i do not ask because i think it's impossible to answer, but because i can't think of an answer, and you seem to have one.
>>2877233>the better comparison would be to wishful thinking.Nah dawg I meant what I said you can go read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking >>2877235that doesn't seem obviously optimism to me is the point. what occasions this magical thinking in the way that pessimism and (sometimes) cynicism occasion pessimistic fatalism, and what is inherently fatalistic about magical thinking? would not the notion that people influence events by sheer will be at direct tension with the notion of deterministic fatalism?
>>2877234america can't even defeat a completely broke iran, the fuck is it gonna be able to do against nuclear armed india/pakistan or nationalist turkey or any of the asian countries that communist china considers in their sphere of influence? how many times does america have to pick a fight in the middle east and lose horribly before everyone realizes its not the 60s anymore
>>2877236>that doesn't seem obviously optimism to me is the point. wSure it doesn't mean only optimism but usually it starts from "wishful thinking" as you describe. Crossing your fingers wishing upon a star
>what occasions this magical thinking in the way that pessimism and (sometimes) cynicism occasion pessimistic fatalism, and what is inherently fatalistic about magical thinking? I would say that optimistic fatalism is the ultimate wishful thinking or ultimate desire/conclusion of magical thinking.
>what occasions this magical thinking in the way that pessimism and (sometimes) cynicism occasion pessimistic fatalism, and what is inherently fatalistic about magical thinking? I would say that pessimism to me usually engenders less to imagine defeat than optimism the opposite. I would say pessimism is a safer conclusion. If we were to take any hypothetical action, like
>how can I get a meal and shelter today?There are many hypothetical avenues, but none of them are given, whereas the pessimistic prediction:
>I will not get a meal and shelter todayis a guaranteed conclusion if you believe in it.
>>2877206>It wasn't imperialism that grew the American middle class.one could argue that the white landowners that comprised the majority of the non-enslaved pre-civil war us population were the predecessors to the post-20th century middle class, and the formation of this rural settler proto-middle class was done through imperial conquest, i.e. conquering the indians and the mexicans and importing black people from african and carribean colonies for slave labor..
furthermore, while the new deal reforms played an instrumental role in reviving the us economy and the formation of the industrial working class, it was the us's involvement in world war 2, destroying japanese empire with nuclear weapons and aiding the allies in defeating germany late in the war after it was clear that the germans would not win, that put the us in the position of being the sole remaining imperial power in the world with control over 50% of all global wealth and creating a global hegemony that has ruled much of the world to this day, the largest geopolitical gain in human history and an obvious example of imperialism.
the white american working class were given a tremendous share in the spoils with suburban homes and lucrative industrial jobs and public infrastructure elevating them into the middle class, along with the biggest and most expensive and elaborate white-nationalist anti-socialist propaganda effort in history to indoctrinate and secure the loyalty of the white middle-class and destroy what remained of the labor movement and the new deal reforms would be gradually rolled back over the following decades.
the new deal was basically just a hail mary to buy some time and belay the collapse of the us economy by selling treasury bonds, borrowing money from the public and going all-in on a state-controlled planned economy and hoping to god that the rapid industrial development would bring in enough revenue to offset the costs and save the country, then ww2 happened and industrial demand skyrocketed and the us became a wartime supplier of weapons and supplies to the allies, the european and soviet empires, which ended the great depression and set the precedent for the us's future war profiteering efforts and the formation of the military-industrial complex, a key component of the american imperialist hegemony.
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