/siberia/ - Off-topic

>>790763
Exploitation in Marxism is a technical term that refers to the capitalist taking ownership of surplus value. This also happens in communism (part of personal labor product taken to satisfy societal needs). The term has no moral dimension to it. It is in the self interest of workers under capitalism to reduce exploitation to improve their living standards, and at the same time, it's important to make workers realize that exploitation cannot be totally abolished and therefore it's necessary to abolish the specific relations of production of capitalism to organize this exploitation (distribution of social product) in a direct, conscious and rational manner.

>>790763
Alienation is also a self-interest thing rather than moralism. Most people don't want to be alienated from their work and the product of their work.

You need to understand what the criticism of morality actually is. "Morals" don't really exist as an independent physical thing outside the human mind. What we call morals are physically, emotional reactions or manmade societal guidelines. So a scientific analysis does not simply accept morals as they are, but picks them apart to see why they originated and what they're really about.

By criticising morality we also criticize the conditions that created such moral thinking in the first place. Recognising the nature of morality also does not mean that we tell people to deny their human desires and self interests, since such an assertion would also be a moral assertion.

What we are basically doing is descending from talking in the ideal plane about philosophy and morality, down to the material plane of biological humans and their behaviour.

>>790773
>This also happens in communism
Nope. Communism is about free creative labor. 'Free' means you can do nothing instead of creative labor if you wish. It's kinda 101 of Marxism.

>Exploitation in Marxism is a technical term that refers to the capitalist taking ownership of surplus value
<of the worker, which is worker's interest
'Of the worker' is the moment where the self-ownership appears. Things as they are themselves don't create any entitlements or obligations about what we should do about them. Hume's guillotine, you know.

>self interest of workers
There is no interest outside of individuals. Workers as the sociological group have many interests. For example, I don't think that most of the working people of Alabama mind lynching some n*s and f**s. This is not the thing you want. You'd call this reactionary. Some interests are okay to accomplish, some others are not. One has to have a criterion from outside to do this. This is yet another normative/ethical claim.

>>790780
Dude, I already get you are in favor of scientism. Just stop.

>>790741
Loli

>>790717
> Can you guys explain it to me? Why labor cannot be fully sold? The prole and the capitalist consent.
This is addressed and capital volume 1. Capitalists use money, to buy commodities, to make more money than they initially started out with. A worker sells a commodity, like their labor-power, to get money, a wage, to buy things they need like housing, food, shelter, water. A worker uses money for its original intended purpose: to buy things of equal value. A capitalist uses money to make more money.

The capitalist does not just want a use value. He wants a commodity to sell. And he wants that commodity to have more value than the things he paid for. He wants surplus value. So we must look at work as a value creating process. Let us take an example of spinning yarn. The capitalist buys ten pounds of cotton for ten shillings. He also uses up a spindle worth two shillings. That is twelve shillings of value already in the product. The worker spins for six hours. Six hours of labor add three shillings of value. So the yarn is worth fifteen shillings. But the capitalist paid three shillings for the worker's day of labor power. The worker only needed six hours to produce that three shillings worth of value. But the worker can work twelve hours. So the capitalist makes the worker work twelve hours. In twelve hours, the worker spins twenty pounds of cotton. The cotton costs twenty shillings. The spindle wear is four shillings. That is twenty four shillings of old value. The worker adds twelve hours of labor, which is worth six shillings. The total value is thirty shillings. But the capitalist only advanced twenty seven shillings. He made three shillings of surplus value. The trick worked. The worker gave more labor time than he was paid for. That extra labor is surplus value. The capitalist bought labor power at its value and used it to create more value. That is how money turns into capital. The labor process makes use values. The valorization process makes value. When the labor process goes past the point of replacing the value of labor power, it becomes a surplus value process. Skilled labor creates more value per hour than unskilled labor, but the same rule holds. The worker always creates more value than he costs.

Marx points out that a person doesn't sell their labor, they Post too long. Click here to view the full text.

>>790650
Phone Booth, it's so bad it's funny type of movie, it's about some guy awnsering a call from a phone booth and the guy on the phone is a sniper threatening him. It's such a stupid movie.

>>790746
That movie is quite nice. The mistress the guy was cheating with was hotter than his wife.

Also, the movie phone booth was ripped off another movie called Liberty Standing.

>>790746
I thought it was an interest concept, but it was so stupid that a guy that wants to cleanse the world from sinners, like sex-traffickers, would bother with someone that just cheated on his wife. They should have made him a corrupt politician or smth.
>>790657
The vampire women were hot.

>>790800
Hitchcock of all people had the concept originally, and the main character didn't even cheat on his wife, he was just planning too. The scene where the cop just rants to Colin Farell about his divorce is just stupid.

>>790800
If you paid attention the movie, the sniper did say he killed some corrupt businessmen for refusing to confess their crimes.

>>790263
To be fair the oil embargo wasn't because of warcrimes but because the US didn't want an economic rival in the Pacific that wasn't one of the already established Western colonies.

>>790260
>kuse mono
I can fucking HEAR the line lmao. Such a common phrase in anime.

>>790354
Not that anon, but while I was never a liberal, I went from someone very into 'facts' and 'science' to utterly disillusioned with bourg institutions (and also laboratory work is 90% bullshit because most of it is data that nobody will ever give a fuck about to read, and will just confirm an existing conception ad nauseum. The peer-review system alone is a perfect encapsulation of goddawful gatekeeping. The irony is that its the same sort of corruption that the US accused the USSR and "communism" of having, but that primarily applied to socio-cultural aspects, rather than hard science.

>>790731
i dont get it

>>790748
japan is controlled by jews somehow

>>790731
WALKING AMD LOOKING

>>790697
Mostly, yes.

>>790701
There has been no way of really dealing with this efficiently tho?

>>790703
I don't know you and I don't care about you that much . . . …

I've actually been meaning to make a thread like this
basically "What's the appeal of communism for psychopaths?". Not that I'm saying you are but it's a good framework because a lot of people don't care about others so we need more arguments that do not rely on empathy or improving humanity as a whole but more individualistic ideas.

Personally I think it is better to be a communist than run the risk of being a lifelong slave. I won't use any lingo or anything, I'll just say that right now I do work for people who take the work that I do and they benefit from it. I do not want to live in a world where I am being taken advantage of. Statistically I will never be "rich" and I will not be "well off" until I am at retirement age and even that could easily be derailed if I fuck up along the way. I would rather dismantle the system than be at the bottom if that makes sense.

Also you should read actual writings, trying to understand philosophy through forum posts is a waste of time. We're mostly here to shitpost and talk about current news

I recommend you start here
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm

>>790704
>But at the same time, this logic does not apply to the petty bourgeoisie

It does. Socialism is also to their benefit. It's to everyone's benefit but the epstein class.

>>790711
>There has been no way of really dealing with this efficiently tho?

There has. It's called socialism, and it works. Cuba was doing exceptionally well even with extreme sanctions, but now the sanctions are so obscene that it's nearly impossible for it to survive. If socialism didn't work there'd be no need for the US to forcibly try to destroy Cuba for decades.

And since western countries won't allow socialism to exist, there's only the second best thing available, which are the social democracies which prove that wealth redistribution is extremely effective at improving people's lives – they have the highest human development in the world.

>>790692
>equal
But communism isnt about equality doe

>>790703
They helped their fellow tribe members and massacred other tribes. Today we are all individuals who dont need nobody or some shit

>>790491
>tangible and immediate struggles
doesn't exist unless you move to a war zone
>people who tangibly and visibly harm the fellow human
the biggest offenders do it indirectly,so they don't exist according to that statement
>what im fighting for
lmao

>>790491
Go join a trade union and challenge their cucked leaders or some shit

>doesn't exist unless you move to a war zone

Get a job and you'll finally begin to understand proletarian struggles.

>the biggest offenders do it indirectly,so they don't exist according to that statement

Exploitation is as direct as it gets and it's done in many different ways as well.

>>790491
> I need tangible and immediate struggles against people who tangibly and visibly harm the fellow human

Pick a Mission:

Mission A

Within the next 90 days, recruit 10 coworkers into a weekly political study and organizing group, hold at least 12 meetings, and collectively identify and carry out one workplace-based collective action campaign.

Mission B
Over the next 6 months, have one-on-one organizing conversations with 50 working-class people in your community, maintain contact with at least 20 of them, and help form a durable local committee that meets at least twice per month.

Mission C
Within the next 4 months, complete a certified first-aid/trauma-response course, attend 8 self-defense or de-escalation training sessions, and help organize a 5-person mutual-aid emergency response network that can be contacted within 30 minutes during a community crisis.

>>790491
Your attitude is bizarre and dumb. If you want to fix a malfunctioning PC but you refuse to learn anything about computers or even ask and listen to PC experts, what do you think you can achieve?

There is nothing special about "solving" capitalism that makes it different from other problems. You have to LEARN and if you don't you just end up being another of the billions throughout history who lived and died in ignorance and achieved nothing.

>>789957
by that same logic you could say that marvel movies are good cinema because a lot of people like them, when really they just appeal to the lowest common denominator

>>789963
No, because I don't think Trump is a good leader, but as with Marvel movies, it's hard to deny that they hit gold and they are very successfull (until recently) in spite of the quality of the movies themselves.

I guess so man

>>789956
Trump doesnt speak like a toddler. He speaks like a cartoon character.
Also leaders like Trump with his chauvinism are celebrated more in other countries

>>789933
Fat fuck

I accidentally walked into a bathroom in a shared house where a naked 14 year old was showering. Her mom caught me and thought I did it intentionally. We got into a huge fight. I tried calmly explaining the situation to her but she kept shouting and screaming.

She was a Nigerian woman and she said something like "I'll talk to the cops" and I said "Sure call the cops lmao let's see who wins" and she then screamed "I'm legal, I have my documents you bastard!".

Anyways I got tired of arguing and went back to my room. Nothing came out of the incident.

>>786346
what if you're too poor to move?

i ate meat during lent.

>>786487
The lord has forgiven you

I'm an exclusive pedophile

>What is it about machismo culture
I am sorry but what? Within straight macho spaces men are literally the most open about their kinks if anything. In contemporary bourgeois feminist culture male sexuality is effectively pathologized by a form of neo-puritanism. Even something as benign as saying 'I like big tits' or 'I like big asses' is going to get you scolded as being problematic if a straight male says it, lmao.

>>790373
The only accepted cishet males are celebrities and even they get flak although not as hostile as their commoner counterparts

>>790272
Men should feel shame they like vile shit like that pic you used was probably made by a male furry. Tradcon machismo doesn't do "kinks" that's something libbed up academics invented.

>>790302
>So you think that boys being forced to participate in life threatening activities by their elders to prove their worth isnt misandry?
Maybe if you want to bite the bullet and say it's misogynist for society to encourage women to get pregnant (life threatening). In truth neither is "oppression" (libbed up academic speak again) it's just both sexes doing their role. Gonna have to do the same under socialism too until we live in some freaky scifi culture where everyone is a sexless cyborg and babies are grown in factories.

>>790403
furries haunt the chud mind just as much as trans people do

I'm a M*P but I don't hate myself for it at all, because ironically I experience the most "vanilla" form of it

>it's clear he WANTS to hate even if he can't rationally justify it
Well, what do you want from us? This is the mindset, even if you groom him into communism, he will still remain a life-denying, sadistic shit.

I believe I facts and logic'd my way into socialism, but it's probably environmental conditions somehow. It just makes logical sense if you believe that it's unacceptable for people to starve to death, and for people to hoard profit from your labor and use the money to do satanic necropedophilic rituals in their private island

>>790586
If the left can't even convince their friends against white nationalism how are they gonna convince anyone of anything? I guess they can't so they become third worldists.

>>790699
as if it was an easy task to convince sub-humanly stupid rural caucasoids that everything they think they know is retarded.

>>790586
White nationalism, especially, is an egocentric phenomenon. It isn't just their political views… they see it as a part of their identity, and the loss of this cause as the loss of their own ego.
They see themselves as White.
When people debate, they usually don't change their views that much fundamentally, but a small shift.
Very rarely do candidates move from one side to another side… they're far more interested in taking advantage of the social stratification of people into political parties.

just put down the bottle man, why do you need a material explanation for everything, fuck's wrong wit u?