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/edu/ - Education

'The weapon of criticism cannot, of course, replace criticism of the weapon, material force must be overthrown by material force; but theory also becomes a material force as soon as it has gripped the masses.' - Karl Marx
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I understand the value of pure theory since that's the only tool we have for shaping ideas which where not put into practice or not properly investigated. However, when the body of scientific literature is ever expanding and more and more data is being available, where is the political theory that is backed with evidence?
This is just my preliminary thoughts but Im just wondering if this is already being explored in leftists circles. As someone who read theory before but stopped, looking back on it too much was just pure speculation, "source: trust me bro" and "its common sense" type of stuff. If we really want to claim that we are scientific, shouldnt we apply empirical rigor to our body of work, shouldnt we abide by the hierarchy of evidence (be praised) as much as possible instead of being content with Freud-level of theory?
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Will do, thanks!


No probs.
You can also check Michael Hudson. Unfortunately I mostly know about the academic debates on Marxist economics via tik tok, of all places, so I can't really give you concrete authors or anything.


Cybernetic socialism involves real time economic responses to feedback which can crudely be considered similar to that idea, at least it could gather data this way as well and draw conclusions, also maybe experiment.


I always tought this was the best way to go about building communism. We only have speculations to guide us so why not experiment to find the best way to actually build a fair society? And its not like we have to experiment on everything, many case studies and reviews of multiple case studies have been done on urbanism and other things. All we gotta find out is how to run and organize the worker coops or whatever body we want to take care of the means of production.
On that note, anyone know any papers or books that try to investigate this kind of questions from looking at historical data of socialist countries?


Cool idea. Eventually we could experiment with models based on class dynamics, political and economic disparity within different societies. There are some people constructing models to experiment with planning their countries (e.g. Sweden) national industry cybernetically and that take into consideration for example carbon emissions and energy use and inputs and outputs iirc. The Swedish Marxist organization Tomäs Hardin is a part of that I cannot remember the name of off the top of my head has released a model on the internet that people can use to plug in their countries industry's inputs and outputs to construct a model for planning or something along those minds, forgive my ignorance, need to revisit, but anyways here is an example. I will embed a video of the lecture on paul cockshott's channel and here is Tomäs Hardin's channel, very underappreciated imo but like all good marxist nerds it is completely unpolished and full of old videos on random stuff: https://yewtu.be/channel/UC5fDgA_eHleDiTLC5qb5g8w

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If class conflict is a reality, why aren't politics divided along class lines already, even if immature in consciousness, what Lenin called "trade union consciousness". Instead politics is divided between different coalitions involving different sectors and industries of capitalists and workers, divided by education, race, religious, ethnicity, geography, and seemingly everything BUT actual class.

And I know people blame muh liberal idpol but this is lazy IMO. This is really a schizo tier conspiracy, the alex-jones-ism of the left. Liberals aren't capable of socially engineering class conflict out of capitalism's existence through mass media or anything else. Its the path of least resistance to just make coalitions out of existing groups of people. Liberal idpol is a consequence and coping political strategy over the lack of class politics, not the cause of it.

Doesn't the fact that the proletariat hasn't emerged as a united political constituency disprove the basic thesis of Marxism? There's no clear evidence that the proletariat is the revolutionary subject, or that a revolutionary subject even exists under capitalism?
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>Why isn't politics divided along class lines?
it is. You are just a weird schizo, a booj, or an american for not seeing it.
Sage and fuck all of you for giving 80+ replies when all you had to do was say the premise is wrong.


The start of it is questioning the nature of freedom, if you think that the capitalist state can guarantee your freedom, you're bourgeois. It's really that simple, I agree race and identity detracts from this basic point. Freedom of mass society is the beginning of dialectics.


You have to concede though, that these narratives have overtaken the discussions of class. The bourgeois media has made false consciousness vogue by offering a false narrative. Marxists can only intervene through their small civil societal institutions , this is a huge problem we must face straight on.


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>For most of the twentieth century, us political parties represented different coalitions of capitalists, who appealed to working-class voters on the basis that they would promote economic development, expand job opportunities and generate revenues to invest in public goods. This was the ‘material basis of consent’ that determined party success at the polls: a local version of the politics that shaped most capitalist democracies during the long post-war boom.

>The us political scene has long displayed a profoundly paradoxical aspect: while ubiquitously structured by class, it is marked by an almost complete absence of ‘class politics’. The parties, at their apexes, minister to different fractions of capital, but at their bases are oriented to different fractions of workers. Thus, neither the Republican nor the Democratic Party is, or has ever been, a ‘working-class party’; it is correct to interpret these parties as parties of capital. Yet despite this fundamental orientation, they must both seek to appeal to the material interests of those who ‘own only their own labour power’, since this sector makes up the vast majority of the American population. Any party that competes in electoral politics must to some extent respond to working-class interests. Despite the talk of identity politics and ‘post-material values’, us politics has a clear material mass base. But it is not a class politics, because naturally neither Democrats nor Republicans seek to mobilize the many workers who vote for them against capital; nor do they attempt to exert effective political control over capital, especially in the era of ‘political capitalism’. Thus we have, in our formulation, material-interest politics without working-class politics.


Simple answer. The dominant ideology is the ideology of the ruling class. And they would prefer that people be divided about race and gender and sexuality and other issues of secondary or tertiary importance so that workers are coming for each other's heads rather than their's.

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 No.9849[Reply][Last 50 Posts]

A long time ago we had a very interesting thread on the question of what consciousness is. Perhaps we can have another interesting conversation like that. Share your thoughts and ideas of what consciousness is and how it arises.
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thank you for the (you) astute leftypole
i guess the question of consciousness basically is the question of feeling as a subjective phenomenon in general


>When do we break out of this place?
Soon hopefully. I'm getting antsy.


I will just post this here from another thread on the mainboard. Has anyone looked into his work here?


Here is a presentation by him where he explains his theory.


What a disaster. It's obviously ones and zeros
And why would anyone want to be conscious anyway, what a drag


Women are not biologically disadvantaged compared to men and men are not disadvantaged compared to women. Although most of the issues women face from their reproductive system are true men also have to bear the burdens of dealing with only one source of an x and y chromosome which can lead to many genetic abnormalities, illnesses and other problems, some that prey directly on that Y chromosome. Coincidentally men are actually more emotional due to centuries of neglect since the Holocene was initiated and have far more issues with impulsivity that can lead to self destructive decision making. The author was wrong to believe male privilege extends to a biological level
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> I am not against psychoanalysis and delving into the unconscious on principle
I think the point i was making is that adopting psychoanalysis is only aesthetically viable to people who are already repressed and seek to justify it by mourning their "lack". Deleuze as a frenchmen, a spiritual liberal, rejects psychoanalysis and likewise embraces nietzsche, something impossible to zizek or fisher in their depressive rationalism.
Nietzsche himself as an anti-deutsche traitor revokes the gloomy romanticism of wagners german nationalism, later forged by hitler, who himself saw life as a struggle, yet also sought death in transcendence. "If i die, Germany dies" was recorded from hitler - it was clearly a suicide pact.
>But dialectically the proletariat represents a negation of the bourgeoisie and an end of capitalism. Some scholars say that it would be the beginning of true history. There's a cyclical element of the struggle, but also a linear progression.
Yes i agree - i dont think the end of capital-ism is the end of history however. I think something of a new frontier represented in the soviet union for example shows the internal struggle of the communist state, externally and internally, fighting for survival against the forces of both revolution and counter-revolution.
>Death and finality if ontologized are fetishized by Fascists absolutely.
I feel like this isnt emphasised enough. Fascism is not just racism and chauvinism, it is pure spiritual desperation, swallowing young men into pacts with the devil, as a necessary confrontation with modernity.
A marxist humanism is not enough for some who lust after excess, in realms that the market cannot supply for them, because this would likewise be too contradictory for the market to sustain. Same reason almost every liberal country still bans weed.


Another interjection on this, Mao is relaying DiaMat in 'On Contradiction', while I'm being more modest and only considering HisMat as the "grand narrative" that is being deconstructed.


HisMat has a disturbing linearity to it
Whereas a circular notion of both time and history fit a more "eternal" model, rather than a totally negative one, but the circular model is pagan and based on rebirth, whereas the christian conception is based in progress unto singularity.
Death is the agony where we also have communion with God and dwell in him forever, a final subtraction. Marx was well acquainted with the christian religion as too was engels.
Engels in "socialism: utopian and scientific" describes the communist man as in a state of apotheosis, "a god on earth", like the christian revelation.
Engels also calls himself a "deist", as a deferment to science as the way in which we understand the world.
Science itself is a contingent discourse, like today's discussion of the "sexual marketplace", or darwin's fashionable malthusianism being extrapolated as "the survival of the fittest", a maxim appropriated by the mystical herbet spencer. Darwin also believed thaf negroes were the step from apes to man, a fixture of his whig rationalism.



Was this posted by a GPT bot?

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Dunayevskaya’s state capitalist critique of the USSR, she read state stats and analyzed the data with the categories in Marx’s Capital, it’s really fascinating! Touches on labour laws, revolt, crises, preponderance of machinery, commodity fetishism, world market, LoV and more. I love when actual quantitative data is used in these types of questions. The book was published in 1958 but supposedly she began developing this theory as early as 1942, maybe even as early as 1939/40.
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It is posted not because people think the USSR succeeded but because it shuts up those crying about authoritarianism.


r/europe is that way


Dunayevskaya is just the typical Trot who turned against the USSR the moment it kicked out her man Trotsky. Cunt.


Bleak. Can someone reredpill me on socialism in the USSR?

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Some /leftypol/ history

Should be enough to get /leftypol/ a glowpedia article even

Archive of article

Talking of the burning of the Library of Alexandria and the sacking of Babylon is archive.org down for everybody else or is it just me?
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>For the most part the alt-left simply resembles a left of yesteryear – radical, Marxist and slightly homophobic – a left that time forgot.


Is this the second article we’ve gotten from a mainstream news source aside from the auto-generated crap from a british rag. I mean, if we can create a Wikipedia page from this we should just for the lols and possible publicity.


There's also
On foreign policy mag

So with this Brit article you're talking about it has enough references for a glowpedia article

Link for this autogenerated article?



Someone do it right now and make it spotless. This is a watershed moment for us.

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The Rate of Profit: Rising or Falling?

Recently discovered there is a debate within Marxist economics that Marx had it incorrect, rather than rate of profit falling, due to capitalist technological innovation, cost-cutting and wage stagnation the Rate of Profit will rise, theorized by marxist economist Nobu Okishio.

Your thoughts?
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Seems logically right, there is no possibility for the correct statistics to be done here without any actual data which will probably not be available, and even if so would be a massive task to look at any public documents or reports on profits and finances of any large company or companies.



Births like anything else are a social relation that is materially subject to external or internal influences and contradictions, and to that you say Birth Rates and the effect of industrialisation and living standards, I absolutely missed that and had made a truism or naturalistic assumption of progressive growth when Birth Rates can fluctuate, good spot there!


>what would you say these countertendencies are?
>would be interested in finding more marxist critiques of marx himself, haven't found many academically even.
Its not a critique. Notice how its the "tendency" for the profit rate to fall.

Profit rate falls because the share of material capital grows in relation to the rate of organic capital. IE you have to pay more for the upkeep or replacement of machines relatively than for labour, meaning that there is less total labour in society to be put into creating new capital and more is spend on maintaining what we already have.

The counter tendency is situations where labour saving in one sectors brings down the capital cost in another. Such as improving steel production by 30%. That makes machine upkeep cheaper in terms of labour, and frees labour to build new capital.

But in practice, the implementation of labour saving technologies in non-capital-producing sectors outpaces that of capital producing sectors (because the sectors that produced non-capital commodities, such as food, clothing, etc, are smaller than those that produce or work to maintain material capital), meaning that overall, there is more and more machines that need to be maintained relatively.



Thank you for rare theory post

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Nobody ever talks about this, but the United States was in Haiti for longer than it was in Vietnam. July 28, 1915 – August 1, 1934 (19 years and 4 days). During the US occupation of Haiti, two major rebellions against the occupation occurred, resulting in several thousand Haitians killed, and numerous human rights violations – including torture and summary executions – by Marines and the Gendarmerie of Haiti. A corvée system of forced labor was used by the United States for infrastructure projects, that resulted in hundreds to thousands of deaths. Under the occupation, most Haitians continued to live in poverty, while American personnel were well-compensated. Death estimates have a high range, and I think the uncertainty of the statistics betrays how little Haitian lives were valued by the (mostly white) US marines, who frequently wrote letters home describing the Haitians as subhuman.

>3,250–15,000 Haitian deaths

>Hundreds to 5,500 forced labor deaths
>National bank of Haiti and its gold seized by US authorities

<"Military camps have been built throughout the island. The property of natives has been taken for military use. Haitians carrying a gun were for a time shot on sight. Machine guns have been turned on crowds of unarmed natives, and United States Marines have, by accounts which several of them gave me in casual conversation, not troubled to investigate how many were killed or wounded."

<NAACP executive secretary Herbert J. Seligman wrote in the July 10, 1920, The Nation

The United States introduced Jim Crow laws to Haiti with racist attitudes towards the Haitian people by the American occupation forces that were blatant and widespread. Many of the Marines chosen to occupy Haiti were from the Southern United States, specifically Alabama and Louisiana, often the grandchildren of confederate veterans, resulting in increased racial tensions. Racism has been recognized as a factor leading to increased violence by American troops against Haitians. One general described Haitians as "n***ers who pretend to speak French".

The torture of Haitian rebels or those suspected of rebelling against the United States was common among occupying Marines. Some methods of torture included forcing prisoners to drink large quantities of water in a short period of tPost too long. Click here to view the full text.
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I hope that one day that I will get to see people like you put against a wall and shot.

May the Haitian Revolution survive until the end of time!


The US was absolutely terrified of it, especially its example of slave revolt, which they lived in literally existential fear of coming to the US. The US spent the next few decades utterly destroying it and the remaining century keeping it permanently destroyed.


The US occupation had mixed results
They reintroduced forced labor for infrastructure projects, but they also gave the country a pragmatic educational system that taught them technical skills, allowing for the formation of an independent middle class and some heightened living standards
They were definitely a bit distinct from the French colonists before them, which just saw Haiti as a pool of low-skilled labor to be kept subjugated forever


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>lel, stealing that one
you won't say it outside of the internet


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>The US occupation had mixed results
oh brother here come the bothesidism liberal apologetics
>They reintroduced forced labor for infrastructure projects
not infrastructure projects that benefited the country, infrastructure for the US military in its occupation of the island, and infrastructure for US corporations looting Haiti
>but they also gave the country a pragmatic educational system that taught them technical skills
pragmatic for who? technical skills to what end? Pragmatic for the american bourgeoisie. technical skills for a corrupt regional comprador bourgeoisie to better serve their colonial overlords
>allowing for the formation of an independent middle class and some heightened living standards
>middle class
>heightened living standards
wow you really are hitting every liberal bullet point. the US military seized haiti's national bank, seized haiti's gold, lynched a leader of their resistance movement, terrorized the local population, took literal slaves, raped women, treated them as subhuman, reintroduced "infrastructure" for sugar plantations so that haiti could go back to being a source for cheap raw resources (sugar) and and destination for expensive finished goods and helped deforest the island so that there's no roots holding together the soil, making mudslides and flooding a lot worse than it would otherwise be.

>They were definitely a bit distinct from the French colonists before them, which just saw Haiti as a pool of low-skilled labor to be kept subjugated forever

This is literally how the US saw Haiti at the time. The US literally took their gold and built a bunch of "infrastructure" to make them into sugar planters again. 100 years earlier the US was helping enforce Haitian debt to France for the crime of freeing themselves from slavery.

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>Indian society has no history at all, at least no known history. What we call its history, is but the history of the successive intruders who founded their empires on the passive basis of that unresisting and unchanging society. The question, therefore, is not whether the English had a right to conquer India, but whether we are to prefer India conquered by the Turk, by the Persian, by the Russian, to India conquered by the Briton.
<England has to fulfill a double mission in India: one destructive, the other regenerating the annihilation of old Asiatic society, and the laying the material foundations of Western society in Asia.
What did Marx bro mean by this?
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It's just Chinese rulers being Chinese rulers. They were staunchly opposed to any change.
India was politically unstable and every major ruler had a reformist attitude to one up their rivals. They would've followed ottoman empire if brits hadn't won the battle of plassey.


He was not correct lol, marx would disagree with you as he completely changed his view on this and other issue relating to imperialism later in life, see Marx at the Margins for a collection of such changes in views with the context



>What we call its history, is but the history of the successive intruders who founded their empires on the passive basis of that unresisting and unchanging society
Isn't that just feudalism


Also it's worth noting that the Indian Subcontinent is fucking huge
Of course any noteworthy polity existing on it would be a massive empire
There are subdistricts of India that share the population number of a European nation-state

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market socialism needs to be tested more in my view, but I think it can work if it's combined with a form of central planning alongside it

zapatistas are a good model for functioning socialism in the current era, but its mostly agricultural so it will not be a good comparison point compared to something like the ussr which was much larger scale and had industry
and we can see socialism was working in many socialist states historically, i just think that the zapatistas have a more ideal model of socialist adjacent ideology than what the soviets did because of the emphasis it has on democracy, and it seems to mostly ideologically align with socialism, also seeming to have an emphasis on worker's coops

What is leftypol's view on this?
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>We should improve society somewhat
<yet we must participate in this society, I am very smart.

I swear, anyone who uses buzzwords like "ultra" or "tankie" ought to be bitch-slapped.


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The 1994 Zapatista uprising in Chiapas, Mexico suggested a rupture with Marxist orthodoxies and the possibility of a new radical anti-capitalist politics. Arguing that they should be viewed as transitional between the “old” hierarchical forms of the Leninist party and the “new” distributed network form of the multitude, Autonomist Marxist theorists Antonio Negri, Michael Hardt, John Holloway, and Harry Cleaver have broadly influenced how both scholars and activists understand the Zapatistas. Their interpretations, however, neglect the critical function of centralized and disciplined organization within the networked forms considered emblematic of the Zapatistas, contributing to a distorted understanding of the genesis of their distinctive politics. Hardt and Negri’s insight that forms of revolutionary organization parallel the organization of production suggests an alternative interpretation: that the hybrid distributed and hierarchical character of the Zapatista organization is better understood as keeping pace with the similarly hybrid logic of global capitalist production and accumulation.


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This is the most petite bourgioise post I've ever read.


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