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/edu/ - Education

'The weapon of criticism cannot, of course, replace criticism of the weapon, material force must be overthrown by material force; but theory also becomes a material force as soon as it has gripped the masses.' - Karl Marx
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File: 1685438322473.png (558.64 KB, 640x488, ClipboardImage.png)

 [Reply]

Is Michael Parenti a leftist worth reading or is there someone who does what he does better? I've heard people saying there are better Marxist historians but they don't seem to ever cite any. If I should bother whit him which works are best?
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>>15478
Maybe not arguing specific policy, but the man certainly critiques policy while alluding to something better- for example, he's aware Tibet was a fucked theocracy, but he has also pointed out that it is being heavily exploited by China in general, and he believes that advocating for an independent tibet is far from the socialist line. He will criticise socialist movements, and policies- even though he supported Yugoslavia, he also knew that their policy relating to IMF loans was a dumb move- likewise, he's critical of what China is doing to Tibet and argues that people calling for Tibetan independence aren't necessarily wrong, but it shouldn't be an independant Tibet with the DaLai Llama put back in power.

https://redsails.org/friendly-feudalism/

>In the 1990s, the Han, the ethnic group comprising over 95 percent of China’s immense population, began moving in substantial numbers into Tibet. On the streets of Lhasa and Shigatse, signs of Han colonization are readily visible. Chinese run the factories and many of the shops and vending stalls. Tall office buildings and large shopping centers have been built with funds that might have been better spent on water treatment plants and housing. Chinese cadres in Tibet too often view their Tibetan neighbors as backward and lazy, in need of economic development and “patriotic education.” During the 1990s Tibetan government employees suspected of harboring nationalist sympathies were purged from office, and campaigns were once again launched to discredit the Dalai Lama. Individual Tibetans reportedly were subjected to arrest, imprisonment, and forced labor for carrying out separatist activities and engaging in “political subversion.” Some were held in administrative detention without adequate food, water, and blankets, subjected to threats, beatings, and other mistreatment. [45]


>Tibetan history, culture, and certainly religion are slighted in schools. Teaching materials, though translated into Tibetan, focus mainly on Chinese history and culture. Chinese family planning regulations allow a three-child limit for Tibetan families. (There is only a one-child limit for Han families throughout China, and a two-child limit for rural Han families whose first ch
Post too long. Click here to view the full text.

 

Why should I care what Parenti has to say?

 

>>15481
i dunno, why should i answer your question?

 

>>15462
>>15461
>>15460
The greatest Marxist work on the subject of class struggle in the Roman period is G. E. M. de Ste. Croix's "The Class Struggle in the Ancient Greek World", which is superior to Parenti's book because it is not primarily a study of personalities and contains the rigorous detail necessary to make a high-level analysis of the ancient slave mode of production. And it's a useful point of comparison for non-Marxist works of economic history because he takes over a hundred pages to explain the Marxist theory of class, how it applies to the ancient world, how it compares to competing theories of class and non-class explanations of social hierarchy. In this way De Ste. Croix successfully defended historical materialism as the best historiographical framework for economic and social history.
>>15453
>He does a poor job of that too, Caesar didn't even work towards the propertyless citizenry like parenti claims
I think that one indication that Parenti's analysis deviates from historical materialism is in his championing of the populares like the Gracchi brothers & Caesar. This is in contrast to De Ste. Croix who is unconcerned with these men as personalities and rather sees them as agents of social forces which spring from class struggle (1). Attached are two excerpts that illustrate the difference between the two approaches. Parenti's book is not without nuance and it does not deserve to be interpreted as a wholesale defense of Caesar (2); the purpose of the book is to be a corrective against the works of bourgeois history that uncritically utilize ancient aristocratic sources. This isn't a novel contribution because Marxist historians and bourgeois historians themselves (!) have already done so in exhaustive detail. The problem with the book is that it is framed as a study on the person of Caesar while not really being one; the net effect is to confuse and distract from more fruitful analysis and this is made evident by the way in which the book has been received in this thread and elsewhere. The two conclusions that can be drawn from thePost too long. Click here to view the full text.

 

>>15432
Im reading Blackshirts and Reds and its a huge fucking dissapointment.



File: 1684770569360.png (680.63 KB, 1024x703, ClipboardImage.png)

 [Reply]

Americans are a practical people and they always say: “Time is money.” They have a whole branch of literature—unfortunately, we Chinese know very little of it—dealing with the organization of business in industries and finance, showing young Americans how to save energy and take a shortcut to success. The latter are taught all that very well, and we should learn it too.

At present we cannot permit ourselves the luxury of wasting time and energy.

We live on the borderline of two social systems: the old, capitalist system is dying, and the new, communist system is rising. In these days we cannot live as did our fathers and grandfathers. Every day brings something new, and we should be able to see it with our own eyes, to judge and decide on it. But to do that correctly, we must know a lot.

That applies to the working class in general and to every worker in particular. There is no time to work leisurely, with one’s sleeves down. We must work as economically, i.e., as cheap as possible.

History had fated China—a comparatively backward country—to be the second to raise the banner of social revolution and to hold it aloft for 40 years now; she must fortify her material foundation if she is to continue the stronghold of the world revolution. To do that she must work feverishly, without letup, with the maximum economy of time and energy.

(Excerpt from a talk with leading members of the State Planning Commission, the State Economic Commission and departments in charge of agriculture.)

April 20th 1983
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>>19788
Dengists are the protestants of the left. They don't care about establishing socialism via any mean, they just like cheery-picking quotes and arguing about the meaning of them, as if they were

 

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>>19788
you miss the point. If I took the usual "communist-sounding" marx and lenin quotes and put them in the mouths of deng, and then never admitted that I was doing this, that would be trying to make deng seem cooler than he is.

but the point of this is that I am actually taking quotes from marx/lenin that ultras think "sound capitalist", attributing them to deng, and then, after they have spent a while coping and seething about how these quotes prove deng wasn't a communist, only then do I reveal that these quotes were actually marx lenin, etc.

So the "deception" is temporary, and is meant to be an exercise in critical thinking. The usual course of these threads is that the anti-deng posters don't look up the source of the quote, fall for the ruse, and after the ruse is revealed, they miss the point, and think I'm trying to do the former, and not the latter.

 

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>>19788
>And Marx investing in the stock market, for example, doesn't demonstrate anything at all about how he thought socialism should be brought about

 

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>>19791
> When objectified labour is, in this process, at the same time posited as the worker’s non-objectivity, as the objectivity of a subjectivity antithetical to the worker, as property of a will alien to him, then capital is necessarily at the same time the capitalist, and the idea held by some socialists that we need capital but not the capitalists is altogether wrong.
<Marx, Grundrisse

> Indeed, even the equality of wages, as demanded by Proudhon, only transforms the relationship of the present-day worker to his labor into the relationship of all men to labor. Society would then be conceived as an abstract capitalist.

<Marx, Economic & Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844

> But the transformation, either into joint-stock companies, or into state ownership, does not do away with the capitalistic nature of the productive forces. In the joint-stock companies this is obvious. And the modern state, again, is only the organisation that bourgeois society takes on in order to support the general external conditions of the capitalist mode of production against the encroachments as well of the workers as of individual capitalists. The modern state, no matter what its form, is essentially a capitalist machine, the state of the capitalists, the ideal personification of the total national capital. The more it proceeds to the taking over of productive forces, the more does it actually become the national capitalist, the more citizens does it exploit. The workers remain wage-workers — proletarians.

<Engels, Anti-Duhring

>It is not state capitalism that is at war with socialism, but the petty bourgeoisie plus private capitalism fighting together against state capitalism and socialism. […] State capitalism would be a gigantic step forward… because the continuation of the anarchy of small ownership is the greatest, the most serious danger, and it will certainly be our ruin (unless we overcome it), whereas not only will the payment of a heavier tribute to state capitalism not ruin us, it will lead us to socialism by the surest road. When the working clas
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>>19790
>but the point of this is that I am actually taking quotes from marx/lenin that ultras think "sound capitalist", attributing them to deng, and then, after they have spent a while coping and seething about how these quotes prove deng wasn't a communist, only then do I reveal that these quotes were actually marx lenin, etc.
Because, for Deng, the quotation could demonstrate that, in relation to other evidence. When you attribute the quotation to "Deng," you're attaching it also to what is known otherwise about his positions and what he did in life, and this holds similarly for whoever else you might quote (truly or falsely). A quotation can be evaluated as additional evidence regarding Deng's positions, but it's never evaluated in a vacuum. I'd be surprised if a single person changed their mind from a thread like this. I came to this thread after the reveal, and the only thing it reinforced is never to trust anything cited without a source given that can be easily confirmed.
>So the "deception" is temporary, and is meant to be an exercise in critical thinking
Identifying (mis)quotations requires knowledge of the sources more than critical thinking. Even knowledge doesn't guarantee you'll be right if the quotation "sounds like" something the person it's attributed to might say. I've been able to identify false quotations before, but this is only when I'm very familiar with the person it's attributed to, and the quotation sounds wrong stylistically or positionally. The difficulties here are compounded by problems of translation. In cases where a passage sounds like it might be from an author, it's going to be too difficult to tell whether it's just something unfamiliar or a translation issue unless there's familiarity with the actual source of the fake quote (including the exact wording of the translation). Critical thinking won't reveal it.



File: 1685295094165.jpg (334.51 KB, 450x680, 9780674245136-lg.jpg)

 [Reply]

In my opinion this is one of the most important and useful pieces of Marxist theory in the past few decades.

One thing I constantly encounter amongst young millennial and zoomer Socialists especially of the more woke/idpol variety is that they have absolutely no understanding of the concepts of relative risk and self interest, raised or lowered expectations, plausibility, assessment of leverage power etc - stuff that is very obvious to working class people and especially trade unionists. So many young earnest revolutionaries think that the people don't revolt because basically of brainworms and that they just need to read more books and get why capitalism is bad or whatever. No, there's instrumental rationality and logic there which needs to be understood. People look at the forces around them and leverage power they have - filtered through media and bullshit of course - and decide what they think is realistic accordingly.

It is a lack of this understanding that led, for Chibber, in part, to the ultimate post '68 cultural turn in the Left - to explain why western workers wouldn't revolt, leftoid students and grads decided it must be muh hegemony brainworms and racism (rather than that shock horror social democratic keynesianism in a booming economy was doing well for them relatively speaking) so they went in search of fetishised new inherently revolutionary classes and subjects - far off foreign struggles, women, sexual minorities, racial minorities etc etc etc. This process is still going on today. And I think it also serves as a sort of form of avoidance for a Left which is increasingly rooted in universities - anything to avoid engaging with people where they actually are and your own working class instead of fetishising sub groups of it.

There really needs to be a risk and Socialism 101 lecture derived from this book to kick the idpol out of people, the idealism, the frustrated seething that at its worst turns people towards LARPing and revolutionary adventurism. That and getting people to do boring long term community activism and trade union work.

TLDR 1968 was over half a century ago, the '68 new left was sort of a dead end

https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674245136

I would recommend 'confronting capitalism' also by chibber for a bit of a more normie broad intro

Post too long. Click here to view the full text.
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>>14848
>Vivec Chibber
>Vijay Prashad
>Kerala
>largest strike in history organized by communists
Indiachads, I kneel.

 

>>14848
that simping comes from the likes of Alec Nove. this makes me wonder what Chibber thinks of Dickblast

 

File: 1685315365782.pdf (1.48 MB, 170x255, nove91.pdf)

>>1481554
pdf related, the ur-text for market soycalists and what prompted Cockshott & Cottrell to write TANS

 

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>>14851
>noooo you can't do a study of a past failure unless you also provide an alternative solution!
>we can't do things in steps, and I don't have the brainpower to synthesize ideas from multiple books - give me a single book that has all the answers!

 

>>14845
thanks anon



File: 1685252051005.jpg (113.84 KB, 1024x738, web-19AA-1024x738.jpg)

 [Reply]

What was actually being fought over in terms of policy?

Who wanted what?

What were the longterm effects?

I'm legit lost on what headspace these leaders were so caught up in.

I think it's funny that Mao lured Khrushchev to a pool for a meeting and tried to make him swim, or that they made each other stay in bad hotels when they were visiting each others' countries, but why do these petty dramas appear to eclipse some larger struggle? Please explain this shit to me anons. What were these guys fighting about?
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>>14926


Good post. one more question I've always wondered. why was capitalism able to slowly and imperceptibly replace feudalism over many centuries but communism requires such a sudden, fierce, fast, simultaneous, dedicated, disciplined international struggle to be successful?

 

>>14953
because the cold war and its legacies created a double standard.

 

File: 1685359480670.webm (7.9 MB, 540x540, compromises.webm)


 

>>14953
The overturning of feudal relations was hardly 'imperceptible,' it required numerous revolutions and brutal social transformations, including a world war and the actions of many communists. And you could argue feudal relations still exist in some places today. Given that, why would you expect that a system such as global capitalism would not require a massive, violent, disciplined movement to overturn?

 

>>14953
>why was capitalism able to slowly and imperceptibly replace feudalism over many centuries but communism requires such a sudden, fierce, fast, simultaneous, dedicated, disciplined international struggle to be successful?
I think it comes down to several connected factors.
1. Globalisation: the world five centuries ago was a lot more seperated, it was possible for a new mode of production to develop in a localised fashion, without stepping on too many toes and getting itself crushed by the old ruling class. Class struggle still took place but it wasn't as existential between the aristocracy and the nascent bourgeoisie early on, they could leverage their position and build up their free cities and nurture their little nurseries of wage labour relations, they also made themselves useful and eventually indispensible to the aristocracy whose feudal order was in ever more terminal crisis. There was also the new world, colonisation allowed for the capitalist version of utopian socialism to happen and build up capitalist relations of production from scratch with no historical baggage in the colonies and supercharge capitalism back home with the immense profits yielded by expropriating the natives and doing slavery. Once the free real estate starts running out and the horizons of possibility start closing in you do see more violent class conflict with bourgeois revolutions breaking out all over the place.
In contrast by the time a proletariat is forming in full and socialism begins being articulated the world is already very much on its way to being a world market, and as many pre-capitalist remnants around the world found out there was no where a capitalist gunboat couldn't reach you, so with developed capitalist europe (and later north america and japan) holding hegemony in their search for new markets there were no longer localised spaces for new modes of production to appear and develop.
2. History happens faster: historical change, technological progress, all happen exponentially faster with each mode of production and so the transition between modes of production that took centuries will now take decades as all human activies that make up historical change become easier and faster and more efficient to accomplish.
3. There is a difference between the class struggle giving birth to capitalism and giving birth Post too long. Click here to view the full text.



 [Reply][Last 50 Posts]

Looking at the recent advancements in the field of AI that perpetually make it into the news I thought it was appropriate to make a thread about artificial intelligence. Even if you believe the recent news on AI are merely sensationalism and that we will head into another “AI Winter” soon, I think it would be interesting to discuss the existence of artificial intelligence and “its labor” from a Marxist perspective and talk about where human beings and their labor fits into a society where AI manages to do a lot of the things that for a long time where believed only a human could do. That aside, I just find it reasonable to remain aware and therefore discuss the impact of current state of the art machine learning models that produce photos with ever increasing striking realism.

On that note, I would also like to direct you to the two threads on consciousness I made since that is related and people were also talking about artificial intelligence in there
Current thread: >>>/edu/9849
Last thread: https://archive.ph/LSgow
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>>1480007
Computer science is a well paid field dude.

 

>>16613
im so tired of the "intelligence" discourse

 

can we move on and start talking about things that actually matter like power and surveillance

 


 

incredibly funny that gpt was specifically trained on highly-upvoted reddit posts, so everything it makes reads like a /u/unidan post before he got jailed for election fraud, and the direct result is a bunch of the most vacuous nerds on the planet are convinced it's literally God



File: 1608528163862.jpg (866.36 KB, 1100x1635, Catalyst_v4n1-promo_cover.jpg)

 [Reply]

10 posts and 19 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 

>>9389
Volume 5 Issue 4

 

>>9389
>>10142
Posted the wrong one
Volume 5 Issue 4 PDF

 

>>10143
New volume is up

 

any 2023 ones?

 

bump



File: 1685062445207.webm (14.78 MB, 384x384, chooseyourlenin.webm)

 [Reply]

I can think of a few, but not an exhaustive catalog:

>Lenin getting smuggled back into Russia by the Germans because they thought he would destabilize Russia

>The French King helping the American Revolution to own the British
>The Russian Empress showing the Francisco De Miranda (Venezuelan revolutionary and independence leader) favor in her court and protecting him from the Spanish crown by giving him permission to hide in Russian embassies all over Europe
>The British blockading Haitian ports to own the French, which prevented the French from coming back in and reimposing slavery when they were most able to.
>The Americans supporting New World Independence movements in general against old world monarchies, both for ideological reasons (bourgeois republican ideals) and opportunistic reasons (trade).
>The Americans trading with Haitian slave rebels against the wishes of the French, because it was profitable, even though they themselves were slave owners.

Most of these are from bourgeois republican revolutions against monarchies, or from slave uprisings (in the case of Haiti). Only Lenin fits a communist version of this happening, but I'm sure there are other examples.
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File: 1685083643151.png (130.94 KB, 474x300, ClipboardImage.png)

HARD MODE: POST-1946 ONLY

 

>>17305

Russian-US conflict in the middle east leading to a strengthened position for the Kurdish independence movement.

 

Possibly all of them?

 

>>17303
>WW1: Germans fund Lenin, leading to October revolution
>WW2: Germans occupy Europe and attack USSR, paving way for Eastern bloc

 

>>17306
>strengthened position for the Kurdish independence movement.
be careful anon, you'll summon the "kurds are actually imperialist lapdogs" schizos



File: 1679069217312.jpg (95.97 KB, 960x611, cc.jpg)

 [Reply]

Has anyone here read any of post-marxist Cornelius Castoriadis' critiques of Marx? I feel that in some places he gets the criticisms right, and in other places very wrong. Note that Castoriadis still remained a kind of anarchist.

Something I feel he got right:
- Whereas Marx claims that tech reduces surplus, by claiming that fixed costs would increase over time, and should lead to a reduction in variable costs like labour, Castoriadis criticises this heavily and says that tech provides opportunities to reduce fixed costs, and subsequently can actually increases the number of jobs

Neutral on this one (looking to hear what other people think)
- Castoriadis is highly critical of dialectics as a whole and suggests that Marx is claiming that simply because two things have tension with each other that they are opposites. Especially in the modern world where the lines between workers and capitalists have blurred such that we are all a sort of 'executant' now (think for example, a worker who owns company stock in the company they work out, takes on administrative tasks, or acts as a sort of middleman like a middle manager) and therefore suggests that bureaucracy is the largest enemy we have today that actually unites us on a human level, rather than individual classes of people. Institutions are socially constructed but have taken on a life of their own due to our alienation.

I think he's definitely wrong on this one:
- Tendency of rate of profit to fall. He analyzed this after the war when it was going back up, but it has continued to fall even lower after that point. However he definitely was right to suggest that capitalism was far more resilient than Marx made out

https://files.libcom.org/files/cc_psw_v2.pdf
I'm taking most of these points from 'Modern Capitalism and Revolution'. Castoriadis essentially argues that Marx is outdated and that the system has already transformed from a simple capitalist struggle of 'the one who does not own but works' and 'the one who owns and does not work' into something a lot messier, which Keynes was (according to him) better equipped to analyse.
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>Especially in the modern world where the lines between workers and capitalists have blurred such that we are all a sort of 'executant' now (think for example, a worker who owns company stock in the company they work out, takes on administrative tasks, or acts as a sort of middleman like a middle manager) and therefore suggests that bureaucracy is the largest enemy we have today
Reactionary deflection

 

Nice, this is perhaps the first time I see a thread about Castoriadis, who is a pretty overlooked thinker.

For context, he founded the group Socialisme ou Barbarie after being disillusioned with Troskyism in 1949. They wrote a theoretical journal and expounded a pro workers' council stance. This group was pretty influential on Guy Debord, around the time the SI took a more Marxist turn.
After the dissolution of SoB in 1967, Castoriadis became more critical of Marxism, nevertheless without totally repudiating Marx, and developed a pretty radical theory about democracy and autonomy by returning to the Greeks. He was also a psychoanalyst and an economist.
I haven't read much besides a few articles there and there, but I recommend vid related, a subtitled interview of him about democracy in Ancient Greece, he knows his shit, and illustrates how much "representative democracy" is a joke, a "liberal oligarchy" in his own words.

>Whereas Marx claims that tech reduces surplus, by claiming that fixed costs would increase over time, and should lead to a reduction in variable costs like labour, Castoriadis criticises this heavily and says that tech provides opportunities to reduce fixed costs, and subsequently can actually increases the number of jobs

The World Bank makes data available about gross fixed capital formation as a % of GDP, dating back from the 1960s-1970s.
I plotted the data for the USA, China, India, Italy and Kenya with this URL: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NE.GDI.FTOT.ZS?locations=US-CN-IN-IT-KE
You can see the picture isn't so clear-cut: for China and India, fixed costs have increased over time. For the USA and Kenya, they stayed relatively stable. For Italy, fixed costs have decreased. It's interesting to note there is a big unemployment problem in Italy.
I don't know what to make of this, but even if bureaucrats can create bullshit jobs, does it mean that we should? Especially in an era where ecological disasters are looming and people don't even know why they commute 5 days a week anymore.

>Castoriadis is highly critical of dialectics as a whole and suggests that Marx is claiming that simply because two things have tension with each other that they are opposites.

No one has been able to explain Post too long. Click here to view the full text.

 

>>16405
That pic is wrong on so many levels, jesus. Stop spreading your miscomprehension as education tools.

 

psychoanalysis is pseud bs

 

bumping this thread just to troll the /ukraine/ LARPers a little bit



File: 1685039728906-0.png (1.93 MB, 1000x2200, MRPact.png)

File: 1685039728906-1.png (549.45 KB, 996x777, mrpact_highres.png)

 [Reply]

every time a liberal discovers that the molotov ribbentrop agreement happened, they think they've discovered some hidden gem, and the key to deboonking communism and making it a pariah in the arena of public opinion.

Perhaps they are correct.

See, the real truth behind the molotov ribbentrop pact or the winter war doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that the USSR was trying to buy time, cut off potential corridors of german invasion, etc. etc. What matters is that the liberals have a simple, and easily disseminated narrative that can be repeated much faster than the counter-arguments. In short, they have a "Big Lie."

The "big lie" is a propaganda technique that involves telling a bold, often outrageous untruth as if it were fact. The idea behind this method is that by making such outlandish claims, they will stick in people's minds more than smaller lies because of their shock value, even if there is no evidence for them. Over time, these lies can become widely accepted as truth simply due to repetition. This concept was famously used during World War II by Nazi Germany's leader Adolf Hitler who said: “The bigger the lie, the more easily it will be believed.” The term has since been adopted by other groups and individuals in order to manipulate public opinion on various issues.

The MR Pact is a "big lie." How is it told? It is told in a very simple form: Hitler and a Stalin admired each other, came together and rape poland, and only ever fought in WW2 because they disagreed on how best to divide poland.

With this big lie, you have a narrative where the last world war was entirely caused by "National Socialists" and "Regular Socialists" coming together to rape "Innocent Poland." and then the brave liberal democracies with their freedom-loving capitalist economies intervening to save everyone from the holocaust. In this narrative stalin is an opportunist who joined the winning side.

This is how most people in the EU/US/UK/Australia/Canada/New Zealand have come to see WW2. Why? Because it is convenient for their broader anti-proletarian agenda of keeping their economies in private hands.
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>>13068
The liberals are not uneducated, they are miseducated.

 

>>13065
>LIBERAL LIBERAAAAAAAAL
wtf is up with schizo anons lately?

 

>>13070
Not sure anon, why don't you look in the mirror and tell us?

 

>>13067
Why do you give a fuck that anyone gives a fuck

 

>>13070
>implying liberalism (in the sense of bourgeois nationalist chauvinist republicanism) is not the dominant ideology of the ruling class



File: 1647357862700.jpg (20.88 KB, 254x400, 9780300257304.jpg)

 [Reply]

Has anyone read picrel yet? Is it any good, or just more Applebaum tier trash? Obviously I'm not expecting a Leftist take, but anything critical of the usual "the people rose up to overthrow le evil tyranny" narrative would be good, even from the right. I think I heard the WarNerd guys rexerence it, so thought maybe it's not complete shit.

 

no its very, very good deffo recommend



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