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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 1768390983650.webp (24.12 KB, 640x427, flag.webp)

 

Can /leftypol/ answer these questions that I have ?
I consider myself a social-liberal. I've read and understood fairly well marxist literature (mostly read secundary sources though), aswell as most other polsci theory because of my degree.
I don't align with marxism mainly for 3 reasons that I'll formulate as questions:

>1. Why does the dialectical movement have to worsen the proletariat's lives
In essence, if material institutions change because they can't objectively and materially fulfill their purpose (i.e. a company that exists to make profits faces competition which lowers its profit rate), why would these changes and evolution incur a decline in the proletariat's condition and accentuate class antagonism ? I know marxist's economic theories, but they don't explain as to why the new institutions that would emerge from the old ones wouldn't be better.
For example, capitalism's crisis (a contradiction) have lead to the creation of better financial managing, which imo is a better thing than recurring crisis every 10 years.

>2. Why can't the state and different class interests agree on a mutual interest.
I understand that in marxist theory the state essentially only lives as a tool for the bourgeoisie to use. However, in the face of revolutions or class conflict, why couldn't both parties collaborate rather than face off ? Both the bourgeoisie and the proletariat can have an advantage in collaboration and mutual interest rather than pure conflict. I mean, in polsci theory this is the founding basis of the state.

>3. (and a bit more practical) Isn't the whole marxist linguo counter-productive to the ideal you hold ?
For instance, shouldn't you say "workplace democracy" rather than "abolishing private property", given the sentence's long history of being misinterpreted ? Same goes for the dictatorship of the proletariat, the exploitation theory etc.
12 posts and 3 image replies omitted.

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>>2645320
>You said it youself. The state is a tool of the bourgeoisie
Yeah I see. I think this is the core disagreement between us when it comes for state and class colaboration. Imo the state isn't necessarily bourgeois, even its current form today (might have to do from where I live too).

>But this movement died in the 1920s
You mean a non-marxist movement that wanted to abolish wage-labor ?

>>2645339
>Better financial management only exists insofar as it mitigates the falling rate of profit and class antagonism.
I think I'm starting to see the picture. It's not that contradictions ALL necessarily lead to a further degradation of the proletariat's life, but that those identified to Marx and inherent to capitalism do ?
Makes more sense desu, I had understood it as "all contradictions necessarily degrade the proletariat's life therefore a revolution is more and more likely to happen"

>As far as I know, the only answer is *threat of violence*.
Yeah, I'm saying that it is more beneficial for both the proletariat AND the bourgeoisie to slowly establish better and mutually interesting reforms than to have a revolution. You could technically say that on the long term this would lead to classes disappearing.

Post too long. Click here to view the full text.

>>2645485
>on contradictions
The dialectical movements between classes lead to the benefit of one in expense of the other. There's no rule saying the oppressed class will always get the short end of the stick, it's just the most common scenario.

>it is more beneficial for both the proletariat AND the bourgeoisie to slowly establish better and mutually interesting reforms than to have a revolution
This is false. A proletarian revolution is strictly in the best material interests of the proletariat. There's simply no mathematical benefit to workers in keeping the bourgeoisie around.
There are historical periods in which capitalism is tolerable enough, and in such times the threat of revolution is low. But as labor exploitation grows and material conditions deteriorate (and they will deteriorate, as capitalism has already ceased to be progressive in much of the world), the more incentive workers have to seize the productive forces, and if class consciousness is widespread, a revolution of communist character is more likely.

>on the long term this would lead to classes disappearing
The only way for this to happen is for the bourgeoisie to lose property over the means of production. This means collectivization of the productive forces i.e. oppression by the proletariat over the bourgeoisie. Do you think the most powerful class, with the most leverage, the larger threat of violence, will give away their benefits for free?

>[welfare] comes down the feasability
Yes. A world with commodity production and private property where everyone has education, job security, few working hours, 150m² housing, satisfactory urban infrastructure, access to light industry commodities, and occasional luxury, is honestly an okay reality that wouldn't ever make me mad at society, even if it's nowhere near the realized potential of a post-capitalism world. It is, however, not feasible. For me to explain why it is not feasible would derail the thread and is a topic of very large scope, and then you'd go down the rabbit hole of Marxism to never return.

>a socialist revolution where everything can go bad and become worse
Communist experiences only really go bad when there is an exPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

>>2645485
>You mean a non-marxist movement that wanted to abolish wage-labor ?
Marx and Engels explicitly envision the first stage of communism, to be initiated after a DotP is established, as abolishing wage-labor and replacing it with a labor hour system. Lenin and the bolsheviks agree, only now introducing the short-hand "socialism", within their revolutionary Marxist context to mean just that, the first phase of communism. But after the revolutionary wave fails to spread into the imperialist countries of Europe, "steps back" have to be taken. Due to illness Lenin leaves the picture and is replaced by an eventually succeeding Stalin-faction. With his theoretical creation of "Marxism-Leninism" a new "socialism" is introduced with now overly compromised content; which rejects revolutionary communism for an array of legalist, class collaborationist, nationalist and pacifist tactics elevated to the level of 'the only true' dogma, is introduced.
We are still here unfortunately, and with even worse, less principled Marxist-Leninist states to deny our struggle and pray to.
The break of the 1920s is crucial for understanding and it has less to do with Trotsky than you might imagine if you just 'zoom out' a bit. Key points of attention should instead be the struggle against the bolshevizing turn of the Comintern and its consequences, first in 1910s-1920s Italy and then 1920s-1930s China. The time-spans is to actually comprehend the context, actors, the catastrophic results and their erroneous persistence in the contemporary movement.

>>2645320
> Terms like dictatorship of the proletariat predate the fetishization of the word "democracy" that went on at the end of the 19th century

Not this again. Dictatorship of the proletariat IS democracy. It is the only REAL democracy.

<We have seen above, that the first step in the revolution by the working class is to raise the proletariat to the position of ruling class to win the battle of democracy.

- Communist Manifesto

<“Pure democracy” is the mendacious phrase of a liberal who wants to fool the workers. History knows of bourgeois democracy which takes the place of feudalism, and of proletarian democracy which takes the place of bourgeois democracy.

- The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade Kautsky

>>2645485
>Yeah, I'm saying that it is more beneficial for both the proletariat AND the bourgeoisie to slowly establish better and mutually interesting reforms than to have a revolution.
you gotta have the revolution first, then you can do this, but only under a dictatorship of the proletariat. thats what china is doing

>Imo the state isn't necessarily bourgeois
yeah sometimes its communist lol. but there are times when classes can work together because their interests are materially aligned. like a comprador bourgiosie who is cut out from imperialist profits might become a national bourgiosie and help the proles defend from imperialism. but thats temporary and once they get sovereignty they will flip sides.

and working together isn't class collaboration, class collaboration is a fascist principle that classes are inherent and should work together for the good of society because some people are born as heads of the body and some are hands or feet and they should know and accept their station.


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Die Oma mal am Joint ziehen lassen gegen die vaterlandslosen Gesellen.

Alter Faden:
>>2363945

Ein paar Links:
https://mlwerke.redflag.ps/
https://www.papyrossa.de/
https://www.marxistische-blaetter.de/
https://www.jungewelt.de/
https://www.unsere-zeit.de/
https://www.klassegegenklasse.org/
https://www.demvolkedienen.org/index.php/de/
https://www.wsws.org/de
https://kommunistische-organisation.de/
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>>2665067
This guy has been shitting up our thread for like more than half a year at this point spamming it with copypasted AI slop our straight-up chatgpt screenshots.

>>2665067
That AI post was already better than 99% of the other delusional shit these Krauts spew here.

>>2665938
>The obsessed anti-Kraut poster exposes himself to be a neoliberal anti-communist shill and sides with an actual nazi from kc

No surprise right there.

>>2666034
>buzzwords

Jetzt ist bald Februar und Merz regiert immer noch.


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“Mass immigration is insane and will lead to the destruction of any country that allows it. It only takes a few percent of the world to move to a country, where it is no longer that country. A country is its people, not its geography.”
https://x.com/iamyesyouareno/status/1908860526400057534

"The legacy media never mentions white genocide in South Africa, because it doesn’t fit their narrative that whites can be victims"
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1904065163407368212

Even Musk's AI is based.
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1916042294018666585

"The ADL is a hate group"
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1973289543848829225

He supports remigration.
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1997700657546191314

Post too long. Click here to view the full text.
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>>2636225
really make you think

>>2636256
I know this already.

can trump execute him already?

>>2619936
How can he be racist if he had black servants?

>>2616360
>t. south african boer


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🗽UNITED STATES POLITICS 🦅

<Greencorn Rebellion Edition

>Yes, I am my brother's keeper. I am under a moral obligation to him that is inspired, not by any maudlin sentimentality but by the higher duty I owe myself. What would you think me if I were capable of seating myself at a table and gorging myself with food and saw about me the children of my fellow beings starving to death? – Eugene V. Debs


🛠️ Strike Tracker ⚒️
https://striketracker.ilr.cornell.edu/

🇺🇸 Deeds of the Burger Reich 🇺🇸
https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/main/us_atrocities.md
https://williamblum.org/essays/read/overthrowing-other-peoples-governments-the-master-list

📺 Glowie News 📺
Post too long. Click here to view the full text.
589 posts and 169 image replies omitted.

>>2666086
an old liberal hack who only came out of retirement because his young protégé Trevor Noah was terminally unlikeable and did standup bits about how miners on strike in South Africa deserved to et shot

>>2665908
>>2665901
two indisputable truth nukes

>>2666165
I want the gold
give me the gold

>>2666086
Obligatory disclaimer that he is a decrepit lib, who would promise the bare minimum and even if he wins be stymied by his rich friends.

Strategically, I think the public would respond well to an outsider candidate with his politics. I think there is a good chance we get an obama-like campaign in 2028, i.e. a younger person new-ish to politics or a complete outsider the way trump was, who surrounds themselves in economic populist rhetoric and represents not just reform but disruption to the system in some way. Does that translate to anything other than stalling the decay? doubtful

>>2666152
is this leftist "walz sucks cause he hasn't ordered his national guard to arrest ice" or right-wing "walz sucks because he doing an insurrection"?


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Comrades, I can't stop thinking about the amazing political oppurtinity of a devastating global catastrophe…..What now? Was Posadas right all along?

I'm so far into rejecting reformism I'm starting to think the only solution to the capitalist/imperialist world order is not only forcbile overthrow but the complete decimation of it; A disaster so thorough most of humanity will be concerned with immediate survival and as almost everyone will be reduced to laborers and technicians we will have to apply more libertarian communist systems because of their interest and current knowledge/experience of politics + since porkies will hardly have anything to own or to give as to enforce his property; That society won't afford to deal with deprivation at such a stage and no foreign superpowers to help them. The same thing could happen to many other regressive tendencies that won't have their powerful insitutions to perpetuate them any longer and will quickly be abandoned becasue the state of society then will find them detrimental like the church, sexism, etc.
I'm starting to think this is the only real solution because every even mildly successful socialist project gets villanized and destroyed by porkies (regional or foreign) and will hardly implement desired reforms because then priority will be self-perseverance, The disappearance of the US and it's capitalist imperialist allies is near impossible and that even if they transistioned to socialism, Neoliberalism have ruined social relations to such a degree and capitalist mentalities are so deeply ingrained that they will be endlessly sabotaged internally or that people won't commit to it seriously and it will be ruined.

I swear I'm a karmic-positive individual but I despise the capitalist order so much I can't even think of such a catastrophe in a bad way anymore….And even kinda anticipate it in my lifetime, But I still recognize how many people will suffer to endure it.

Do you have similar thought? What do you think?
10 posts and 2 image replies omitted.

Abrahamic cosmogony lmao

I doubt Americans will be happy if Trump destroys the dollar to prop up a new crypto empire.

File: 1769436339177.png (307.51 KB, 1095x619, ClipboardImage.png)

anon, i feel the same way. I welcome the collapse. APOCOLYPTIC SOCIALISM IS THE FUTURE

>>2659168
Climate change?

>>2659168
>hes ignoring climate change
hehehehehehe


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Then an actual conflict happens, and the western affiliated side just effortlessly wipes the floor with their global south opposition and shocks and humiliates them. The /pol/tards creep away, only to return a few weeks later and do it all again pretending like their previous humiliation never happened

>US BTFOing Wagner/Assadists in Syria (earliest example I can think of of this effect)
>Solemaini circus
>Ukraine war clusterfuck
>Operation Grim Beeper
>Collapse of Assad
>12 day war in Iran/Iran strike
>Venezuela

Honestly it seems that "quiet" is their greatest asset, for it lets them brag and live out their fantasies of supremacy without reality interfering. It's why the /pol/ influence was strongest here in the late 2010s and early 2020s.

This is all very confusing. Even the El Chapo shoot out was way more dramatic.

My personal conspiracy theory is that even the PSUV was getting tired of the bus driver. A backroom deal to throw Maduro out solves so many issues for everyone involved. Trump gets an easy win and some shoring up for low oil prices, the Venezuelan government can finally reintroduce the foreign experts they need to actually exploit their oil, the Venezuelan socialists can now hold Maduro up as a martyr and proof of the inexorable yankee aggression towards Latin America. The only loser is the US state department which will have the headache of trying to convince foreign nations that the US is still reliable while under an admin that treats their department like a joke, but Trump likely doesn't care because for him long term foreign policy objectives are subordinate to his own domestic reputation. I mean it's downright bizarre to take Maduro and then (seemingly as of this moment) just fuck off to let his VP take charge without so much as getting anything for the actual Venezuelan opposition, iirc Trump even said that Venezuela isn't ready for the opposition party to take over. I feel like my thinking on this is highly conspiratorial, but to me this seems like the natural follow-up for this is an uneasy detente where the PSUV is able to continue grinding out its control over Venezuela with a more stabilized oil industry at the cost of some humiliation.
108 posts and 5 image replies omitted.

>>2628739
I dunno what's more alarming: the fact that Putin is such a moron for failing to target a single Ukronazi leader in spite of car-bombed generals and attacks on his own person… or the fact that he appears to get no significant pushback whatsoever on this, not even from opposition parties.

>>2629013
Do you think this is some kind of aberration?

The problem is unironically that Putin is so damn likable when you listen to him - the quiet confidence, the humor, etc. I think he's a gigantic cuck, but when I listen to him, all is forgiven until the next provocation he cucks a response to. I imagine he receives even more affection within Russia, which is not great, because it probably stops a lot of valid criticism.

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>>2627680
>Russia
>Learning
Good joke comrade.

>>2629013
>>2629064
It’s probably easy to be confident when you can ruin your political opposition’s lives easily if they get to uppity.


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🗽UNITED STATES POLITICS 🦅

<They Killed Gigachad Edition
<Also RIP Michael Parenti 1933-2026

>"I'll take a Double Triple No-Bossy Deluxe on a Hammer, 19x17 Mao style, extra sickles with a wheat laurel and a fist, light tank tread grease; make it sing the internationale, raise it high, and let it wave."

🛠️ Strike Tracker ⚒️
https://striketracker.ilr.cornell.edu/

🇺🇸 Deeds of the Burger Reich 🇺🇸
https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/main/us_atrocities.md
https://williamblum.org/essays/read/overthrowing-other-peoples-governments-the-master-list

📺 Glowie News 📺
Post too long. Click here to view the full text.
527 posts and 123 image replies omitted.

>>2663047
>vtubers
you're beyond saving
>>2663269
>hookers this and that
male chauvinist
>prostitutes should be shot
strawman, nobody said that. now, pimps and johns…

>>2663788
>>2663924
you are retarded lol

>>2663796
because mr. führer looks at map and thinks wow greenland big i want that

>>2663376
apparently the right is imploding over this, ICE shot the one thing they care about: self righteous white dudes with concealed carry permits that insist on being armed around protests.

>>2663376
MAGA is not the classical american right, although it obviously is the offspring of it. The old right is gonna get liquidated fast, even more so if Trump doesn't die soon.


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What happened to modern communists and their complete abandonment of atheist propaganda? We need to be making bangers like this again.

English Translation: “Fairytales - The calendar of saints, It’s worth laughing”
51 posts and 10 image replies omitted.

>>2659213
Yea like the Christians in the Middle East?

>>2663025
it says gullible on the ceiling

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>>2660785
>Their atheism is simply a product of capitalism, where no overt attachment to any value system makes you freer to pursue diverse avenues of money making
True

>>2660795
>and that is why i exactly said that the future is religious. Integration to the capitalist circuit and lifestyles make you less able to commit into social reproduction.
I think capitalism is going to win, and it has been winning. People have less time or patience to be chained to ancient books of superstitions when compared to everything new on offer.

>>2663025
>>2663030
Alive in raping kids

Leninist principle:
Correctness in the concrete over truth in the abstract.

Compare to feudal times of USSR, religion is not as much of a force any more, so fighting it isn't really worth it compared to uniting the forces that can be united against imperialism.


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Australian and Oceania politics general thread. 'EDIT'"Previous thread: >>2371516"

Link dump:
https://www.greenleft.org.au [good events page]
https://www.auscp.org.au/militant-monthly
https://solidarity.net.au
https://redflag.org.au
https://marxistleftreview.org/?topic=australia
https://www.michaelwest.com.au
https://partisanmagazine.org/about/
https://overland.org.au
https://arena.org.au
https://www.themonthly.com.au
https://www.crikey.com.au
https://www.redblacknotes.com
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inb4 Jelly Seagull, the Special Envoy to Combat Antisemitism, says nothing about direct antisemitism from a speaker at a white nationalist protest

File: 1769410774299.jpg (182.5 KB, 800x649, anti-fashion action.jpg)

fash status: bashed

>>2665808
Update: police press statement is reporting someone in Sydney, most likely this smoothie, has been arrested for hate speech.
I am doubling down on Seagull not addressing the open antisemitism of the MFA.

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old people don't like channel 10 reporters

>>2665930
Always happy to see these corpo media drones get harassed by punters


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Islam is more radical and sober than western atheism

The people of the Islamic resistance (Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran) are some of the sober people on the planet. Just listen to what Nasrallah said about the US/Israel alliance, that Israel is in fact a US outpost and not the other way around and that Jews don't really control the world and such. Compare that to the schizophrenic western conspiracy theories about Jewish cabal.
Islam is the right ideology to fight western imperialism. Prove me wrong.
75 posts and 12 image replies omitted.

>>2662187
I do this as well, I always try play devils advocate on positions the left hold that are clearly poorly thought out beyond "good fucking person", especially when it's just clear those positions are basically thinly veiled Corpo-propaganda (Pro-copyright position much of the left have taken recently in regards to AI) or are clearly just inverted reactionary stances (most idpol).
But Cutrone goes waaaay too far. I do this on positions the left has clearly not thought about enough the consequences. Cutrone just fucking defends Israeli genocide of Palestinians because of some bourgeois liberal idealistic american exceptionalism bullshit.

>>2663845
Cutrone is not my sort of Leftist, he's ultra-left who hates Marxist-Leninism, but he absolutely has a lot of correct critique of the western/millennial/zoomer left in general and the state of politics. This is the same as Caleb, and even Haz. Unlike leftypol zoomers I don't shit my pants and cry when I hear opinions I don't like, I can take the interesting things they say and reject the retarded shit.

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Is this really what you want?

I remember a Lebanese Shia anon who used to cope about Nasrallah not being an Iranian proxy and akutaly is against the Ayatollah on most things #LebanonFirst

>>2664014
>he absolutely has a lot of correct critique of the western/millennial/zoomer left in general and the state of politics.
That's literally how cults operate: they draw you in with the "reasonable" shit everyone can agree with, and then once you're in hit you with the batshit crazy shit. Like Peterson and his "clean your room" schtick. Everyone can agree that a clean and tidy room is preferable to a dirty one, that's not controversial and reasonable. But once you start listening to him he starts going off on how women destroyed civilisation and 10% of people need to culled cause they're retards who can't learn anything.


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