/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2806526

You are welcome. I try my best with the limited knowledge I have (most of which is just undoing misconceptions & clarifying some basic concepts)

This place has deteriorated intellectually a bit over the years to be frank, though it was never an amazing bastion of theoretical discussion.

>>2807123

*accounting

>>2807125
>This place has deteriorated
people are just tired of correcting the same repeat misconception hundreds of times from the same few trolls

>>2807870
the trolls outnumber the sincere anons and you know it. and being tired is no excuse to stoop to their level.

>>2808020
>being tired is no excuse to stoop to their level
thats why people just stop posting and leave

>>2808084
To G.K. it would all boil down into the contradictory interests of the rulers against the ruled once the workers/proles have become declassed.

>>2808086
Upkeep and directives are different jobs from all the prior tasks of manual labor, with different requirements and "specialization". The dispossessed laborers may or may not be able to get to be involved in the managerial roles of machinery lacking qualifications, or the managerial role of machinery being solely given to the bourgeois. It implies leading workers from different fields into solely becoming technical experts for the maintenance of machinery. That would mean a seamless transition into having a hold of the mop.

>>2808088 (Me)
And morons keep straw-manning "automation isn't automation because the machines aren't autonomous", that is not what automation is implied for, it is dishonest language games. We all know damn well what automation means, no one is implying "it will work for itself without interference" you subhuman retards.

>>2808088
Most don't accept it because they believe "managerial duty" i.e. oversight is a legitimate job, when in the capitalist mode of production it can only be the task of the bourgeois and petite-bourgeois who have control over the resources.

In the advent of a sweatshop business firing its workers to have machines take their task in production, those sweatshop workers will not be the ones managing the machines and they likely won't even be the ones doing maintenance. They will likely have to find employment somewhere else.
Who will manage the machines then? Likely either higher-ups or qualified employees which come from a more prestigious background. Technical workers who perform maintenance also require specialization in the field due to the division of labor.

>>2808092
I have much to say about this, but it is completely pointless trying to express it over the internet.
Its best to wait and observe, write up to date analysis of production and the economic relations of this time.

marxists must come up with a trans-historical metric of economic exploitation in order to prove that new classes will never arise in any future society

>>2795029
This book is awful and full of misinformation

Manlets WILL be the underclass.

>>2794562
subsistence, surplus, and conditional access to surplus are all dynamics that exist in the animal kingdom. hierarchy predates humanity. class is just socially constructed hierarchy around restricting access to surplus. As soon as an animal is capable of producing more than it needs to survive, it has a extra AKA "surplus". This surplus becomes fought over at the level of the community. It can be redistributed, hoarded, or have access to it be made conditional on behaviors like loyalty (obey me and I'll give you some of my stuff) and reproduction (have sex with me and I'll give you some of my stuff). In a society that is industrial, surplus is so large that scarcity becomes largely artificial. Society produces more than enough for everyone to live, including the old, the disabled, the babies, but access to the surplus is made conditional on offering yourself up for exploitation. Sometimes so much is produced that prices crash. Rather than redistribute the surplus, it is destroyed to stabilize the prices. This shows that in any society that produces more than it needs to survive, surplus has its access restricted based on loyalty to the class system. People who say "we can't afford to redistribute this" are really saying "We want to maintain our leverage over the poor and weak, because our leverage allows us to keep enriching ourselves at their expense one generation after the next."

Marx says all this using 19th century language and Hegelian forms of expression in Capital but the essence of it is here. He describes "modes of production" based on different forms of exploited labor: Slavery, serfdom, wage labor.

>>2797357
meh, they might. instead anti-marxists must come up with a trans-historical metric to explain why class cuckery is justified in present society instead of class struggle

>>2806894
while I understand the sentiment,the planet cannot sustain that lifestyle at all nowadays
And even "back in the day" there was a massive period of famine and deaths caused by the growth of human demographics + disappearance of mega-fauna.
nowadays the only mega fauna that exist are elephants,and whales,which are endangered anyway,so no that is unthinkable even if we were to come even close to 1 million people (forgetting the disaster that would result in a population loss this extreme,it's not just haha people dying,it's a massive logistical nightmare)

>>2806904
so its joever if things go that bad?

>>2806794
>more corruption
yes very nlike "free" markets

lmao

>>2804670
Stop noticing things, Gucci is real Communism

Kkkommand economies

Bump

>>2803819
Class arises when some people can control resources that others depend on and make them do things they wouldn't otherwise. Immediate return hunter-gatherers have no classes because everyone can support themselves, if a capitalist tried to get them to work they'd just become another unhappy Mr. Peel. In agricultural and especially industrial society it's trivial for small numbers of people to control everything, so I'm not sure how a classless society could happen. Most proposals seem to just farm it out, e.g. let a godly AI do it. But the idea of communism is that humans control the product of their hands, not the other way around.

>>2807505
I would say that the transition from a nomadic culture to a sedentary culture by the farming of animals leads to agriculture and so the relations to land cause fixed property relations which then produces a hierarchy based in the mode of production by a division of labour. This shift from physical inequality to cognitive inequality is manifested between hunting and farming (we see this in the myth of Cain and Abel), and so knowledge (of stars, seasons and technique) become the means to attain power. Here, the priestcraft rule indefinitely afterwards. After agriculture we get metallurgy by more complex technique, and these are fashioned as farming tools, but also weapons. And so the story goes.

So class begins in sedentary cultures, where the land is fixed for a people, rather than nomadic cultures, which give no sacredness to soil.

Also, on the point of land, Marx sees capitalism begin by a process of "Primitive Accumulation", or the privatisation of land, which then evicts previous settlers and subjects them to wage labour. So the advancement of class society from its origins is effectively the advancement of the privatisation of land, with the dominion of slave labour as the concentration of labour onto land. We see in slave societies, the fact that you would be punished for trying to run away. We see Plato thus regard the householder, the slave master and the statesman as the same sort of entity, as someone who administers over the inhabitants of a territory. So then, what is class? It is the share of ownership of land, as the primary and ultimate property relation. Nomadism is antithethitical to class society, and class society is antithetical to nomadism. For the same purposes, statecraft can be regarded as the domestication of humans, like how the farmer domesticates animals.

Farming allows the creation of a surplus product (in meat and grain) which is then unevenly shared, until you have those who live on grain and others who live on meat. Grain malnourishes, but extends the life of a surplus population, which expands itself at its own cost, and the for the benefit of a minority elite of kings, warriors and priests. The furnishing of weapons allows for control over the product by the distribution of arms amongst the shared powers, and the lower ranks are even barred from entering the military, lest they learn how to fight. In the end, you stratify the species between the rich and poor. This is the direct consequence of agricultural production.

>>2807412
woman doctors has nothing to do with homosexuality though. abortion maybe idk

>>2807410
Stalin was also an intellectual and an atheist where is this classist shit coming from

>>2807414
>No, you are saying that there is a linear graph between communism and queerness, which is clearly false.
I am saying that they are strongly correlated, which is true. The fact the USSR failed to update its laws to reflect underlying material conditions speaks to the same underlying structural flaws that meant the USSR couldn't adapt to changing conditions and not die on its arse. (Contrast China, which adapted fine and which has a negative official line on homosexuality and nonconformism in general, but which nevertheless is full of LGBT behavior because all the basic underlying material drivers are there.)
The law influences changes in social attitudes, but it does not drive social change. As late as 1995 a majority of irreligious adults in the UK thought gay sex was always wrong despite homosexuality having been legal since the 1960s!
The changes in the 1960s came about due to increasing recognition that whether you criminalized being gay or not, some men were going to do it.

That said: liberal elites are always, everywhere, better than conservative elites. That around the world conservative elites have allowed themselves to be eaten up pandering to the actually mentally deficient tells you all you need to know about the "virtues" of conservatism.

>>2807430
Because it's not a question of rich vs poor.
A poor country with a retirement system will, all else being equal, have more exclusively homosexual men than a richer country without one. That is what this theory predicts. It is, to a high degree, independent of wealth. (Though because everything is connected to everything else, this can't be drawn too far: a rich enough country without any state retirement system will probably still have childless couples due to a reliable private retirement savings scheme. You've really got to dig around in low/middle income countries for this kind of thing.)

The liberal west is more economically developed than the DPRK, Cuba, Vietnam. China is an interesting outside case where it is more developed in some respects and less developed in others. There is no "communist" variable in the way you seem to wish there was. Cuba is governed by a communist party, and in that sense is "more communist", but it is economically underdeveloped, and is in that sense further from communism. This is obviously well above your pay-grade, but someone elPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

>>2807596
Is there a single person outside Mainland China who sees more gay behaviour from Chinese than Western people? Where are the queer parades with 100+ million attendees? Where's the multitrillion gay club industry?

>>2802294
The Communist Party of Peru that led the People's War in the 80s and 90s and helped found the RIM doesn't meaningfully exist anymore, no. It's unclear who exactly the PCP that presently affiliates with the ICL is, but there is no indication that it is a continuation of the old Party beyond a stated commitment to Gonzalo thought and the probable inclusion of some amount of old cadre. There are additionally minor armed groups like the MPCP (Militarized "Communist" Party of Peru) which represent opportunist and eclectic splinters, most of which have descended into warlordism, operating as glorified drug cartels in the wake of the overall defeat of the People's War in a similar manner to other decayed South American People's Armies.

That said, lots of y'all should adore the MPCP and their batshit insane "Marxism-Leninism-Maoism-Xi Jinping Thought". Perfect for you idiots who love shopping around for nonsense "ideologies" all day.

>>2802358
Sendero Luminoso was never what the Party was called. It was a pejorative cooked up by the Peruvian comprador bourgeoisie to detach the Party from their politics and aims in counter-revolutionary propaganda. This was a direct reuse of the propaganda tactic the US and French used in Vietnam — consistently referring to the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam as the "Viet Cong" to avoid even alluding to the nature of the Vietnam War as a national liberation struggle against western imperialism.

>>2807130
<pejorative cooked up by the Peruvian comprador bourgeoisie
Who threw the first stone? Shining Path was used since the time of the studental debates in Huamanga to differentiate it from the other miriads of fractures of the PCP. Example:
<PCP - Unidad : Prosoviet
<PCP - Red Fatherland: Pro Moscow, one of the splinters led by Gman was named Shining Path
<PCP - Red Flag: Can't remember if they were just maoist, hoxhaist or a mix of both
They called themselves the reconstitution of the party, the others called them sectarian maoists.
https://cedoc.sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/biblioteca-digital/coleccion-documental/
Respect to the San Marcos Uni, they digitalized a lot of it.

>>2807418
Terrible error on my part Red Fatherland was prochina party. Maoist. Who of course clashed with SP, example a leader of RF died in Cusco for triying to stop SP to take over the student body of the main university there.

>>2807130
Sendero Luminoso was literally the name of the newspaper, there were over a dozen organizations calling themselves Communist Party of Peru so to differentiate them you refer to the newspaper they published at the time, hence Red Fatherland.

Sendero Luminoso/Shining Path is a really cool name for a party

>>2806930
The anti-imperialist struggle is inseparable from following the principles of scientific socialism. Having state capitalism facilitates the socialization of the economy with the dictatorship of the proletariat. Pushing the bourgeois democratic state to its limits, leading to its collapse through class struggle, facilitates the communist cause. Failing to intensify the exploitation of workers facilitates class struggle if there is a fight for radical reforms that do not create complacency, standing in solidarity with workers worldwide and preventing capitalists from profiting and bringing chaos to the bourgeois state.

An anti-imperialist position allows various bourgeois states to develop, enabling communists to assume power. Because of the division and conflict between these capitalist states, sanctions cannot be properly applied against communists who seize power in a country during a communist revolution; therefore, a multipolar world is necessary.

Don't you understand that my position is to not tolerate finance capital co-opting the masses? A victory for finance capital does not signify a communist revolution because this depends on whether a vanguard has prepared the masses for a revolutionary situation; if sacrifices and suffering are necessary, there will be no tolerance for surrender, and traitors will be punished accordingly.

You should read the communist electoral programs in a bourgeois election before the revolution by Marx and Engels then:

<Nevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable.

<1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
<2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
<3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
<4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
Post too long. Click here to view the full text.

>>2806924
>Why are you doing this to me?
Because you are talking nonsense and don't really understand hismat

Leaving aside the fact that revolutions are always waged by politically motivated people, the other reason is that in order to abolish class society, there needs to be proletarian consciousness. In other words, the proletariat must reconstitute society so as to abolish itself, which implies the need for subjective political action on its part, and therefore the need to politically advocate for itself under capitalism.

The material basis for abolishing capitalist social relations was already available by the late 19th century. There was only one communist movement with the genuine goal of abolishing capitalist relations and that was the Russian Revolution, which failed in its early years due to the collapse of the international revolution and subsequent collapse of its communist party in the 1920s. There has been no other communist movement since then, from which to analyze any reasons for its failure.

>But why exactly should we "fight" for communism

Do you work for a living?

>>2806911
Prolly not but revolution is necessary wither it fails or not. Capitalism didn't fully take over as the global mode of production in till like ww1 and there's still remnants feudalsim till this day.

>>2803326
it's gonna be hard to top the sheer retardation emanating from this post

>>2806071
Read Dialectics of Nature.

>>2803326
pre-socratic philosophers were materialists

>>2807341
Yep, and Plato also calls Homer a materialist. Epicurus after the Academics was an atomist, and the Stoic materialists came to dominate Rome. Only with the rise of Christianity from the first century CE do we see a revival of the old idealism, until it comes to colonise Europe, terrorising all of the old Pagan folk lifestyle. Idealism has always been a minority position of priests.

>>2803359
List goes on to the theories of Karl Marx, eat your heart out.