/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2928468
What's wrong with Engels?

>>2928537
Nuthin. The wacko Holloway however seems all too keen on separating Marx and Engels, which is very much a problem.

>>2928451
>working together is impossible
Nationalist nonsense.

>>2928539
Ey it is what it is bruddah

>>2928576
no, the opposite, america is more successful than europe because each state has no political sovereignty

Völlig richtig, aber ich fürchte, für diese Truth Nuke wirst du gesperrt

Endlich deutscher faden der nicht der General faden ist

>>2927959
Wiese hat OP sich dazu entschieden einen Weiberbursche als Fadenbild zu benutzen? Ist er schwul oder was?

>>2927959
es ist an der zeit den anglozentrismus hier zu zerstören.

>>2928034
>Ist er schwul oder was?

anon, ich bin ästhet. für mich zählt nur was schön ist. nicht männlich oder weiblich. nicht synthetisch oder "echt". nicht fiktiv oder "real".

ein schöner körper. ein schönes gesicht. eine schöne muschi. ein schöner schwanz. ein schöner arsch.

das ist alles was für mich zählt.

>Not sure what I am talking about anymore.
Neither do I.
>Left and right are the two main political divisions, from which all others are related somehow. It has to do with progress, equality vs. hierarchy, property, economic intervention and societal roles in general.
Have you actually looked into the history of the divide?
It is chiefly a class war between bourgeois liberals and conservative aristocrats, according to the factors of production: capital and land. For example, the Corn Laws (1815–46) were implemented following the Napoleonic Wars to increase the domestic revenues for farmland by imposing tariffs on foreign imports of corn. This benefitted the landed aristocracy. Opposition to this came from both socialists and liberals, who wanted free trade to cheapen food. On the liberal end, this was to further cheapen labour. For example, the leader of the Anti-Corn Law League was Cobden, a prominent liberal and textile manufacturer. The Corn Laws were abolished in 1846 by Robert Peel; the leader of the Peelite movement, and creator of the Conservative Party (1834–), a party which by that time was anti-Tory (e.g. the aristocratic party), since the Conservatives were Whigs, in reality. By 1852, Marx associates the different parties with different classes:
<Whigs, Free Traders and Peelites coalesced to oppose the Tories […] Opposed to Whigs, Peelites, Free Traders and Tories, and thus opposed to entire official England, were the Chartists.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/08/06.htm
The Chartists were the representatives of the working class, which in England lost its party form until the later Labour Party (c. 1900), and which ever since has become a main opposition to the Conservatives. Of course, the Chartists never called themselves "left-wing" nor were they even "socialist". Labour too has never been a socialist party. The main contention thus was between free trade and protectionism; this is the basic dynamic of left/right in the classical period. Adam Smith (c. 1776) is seen as a great liberal since he promoted free markets in his political economy, for example, which was composite with the trade policies of the US founding. In the US was the Democratic-Republicans and the Federalists; Jefferson's liberaPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

>Let's see if you agree with me, people.
No guarantees, but let's do it.
>I've come to the conclusion that race, gender and sexuality, in this order, are core identities in humanity and many others if not exactly derived, are strictly related to it.
Disagree. The core identity is mentality. We seek those that think like us and hate those that think diametrically opposite to us. It just so happens that a lot of mentality is influenced by culture, religion and family upbringing so there are patterns to mentality emergence.
>Origin/nationality, culture and social class are REALLY important but have a social, less inherent condition to these more physical, intrinsic qualities I listed.
Disagree, point already considered. Also, notice how wars are fought between people of the same race and of the same culture in civil wars. "End brother wars" is an empty slogan because the participants do not view themselves as brothers. Even then, the first murder according to Abrahamic religions is fratricide, so that already should tell you something.
>Left vs right.
Finished reading to the end, but your worldview is kinda wrong leftychud.
>Not sure what I am talking about anymore.
Clean up your thoughts and come back here.

>I've come to the decision that my head is full of horseshit
Bravo

>Let's see if you agree with me, people.

i didn't even read past that sentence and i already don't agree with you. why do you have to write a showy preamble to express yourself, why can't you just say whatever it is you want to say? do you think this is like a ted talk or something and you have to open with a hook to grab the audience's attention and get them interested? if we're reading this thread we're already here, you already have our attention, you don't need to employ these kinds of performative redditor rhetorical tactics. FRIENDS, ROMANS, COUNTRYMEN…

>>2925145
Was Marx too difficult for you or something?

>>2927886
>The theory of socialism, however, grew out of the philosophic, historical, and economic theories elaborated by educated representatives of the propertied classes, by intellectuals.

More on this topic on politzer's elementary principles of philosophy

>>2927878
because it is open source software.

>>2927886
Yes; Marx discusses this in his early Manuscripts (1844):
<This class has always to sacrifice a part of itself in order not to be wholly destroyed […] in a declining state of society — increasing misery of the worker; in an advancing state — misery with complications; and in a fully developed state of society — static misery […] misery results, therefore, from the essence of present-day labor itself.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/wages.htm
This is drawing from Adam Smith's perspective that even in an ideal state of affairs for wage workers, there cannot be real advancement, since it requires a proportional alienation. Marx further bemoans the colonial consciousness of workers in later letters, seeming to pose this as a 'primary contradiction' in Maoist terms. We may read (1869):
<The English working class will never accomplish anything before it has got rid of Ireland. The lever must be applied in Ireland. That is why the Irish question is so important for the social movement in general.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1869/letters/69_12_10-abs.htm
Furthermore, Marx sees national liberation as the solution (1870):
<Ireland constantly sends her own surplus to the English labour market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the English working class […] The ordinary English worker hates the Irish worker as a competitor who lowers his standard of life. In relation to the Irish worker he regards himself as a member of the ruling nation and consequently he becomes a tool of the English aristocrats and capitalists against Ireland, thus strengthening their domination over himself. He cherishes religious, social, and national prejudices against the Irish worker. His attitude towards him is much the same as that of the “poor whites” to the Negroes in the former slave states of the U.S.A.. The Irishman pays him back with interest in his own money. He sees in the English worker both the accomplice and Post too long. Click here to view the full text.

>>2927673

Marx was an fat autist, its why we love him.

Engels funded him because being a fat autist is expensive, Marx needed his tendies to fuel his writing.

>>2928039
I doubt both that the funeral had any effect (if I recall correctly, last year someone high-ranking in the EU threatened sanctions if Vucic went to Russia's Victory Day parade and nothing happened) and that Serbia's membership in the EU is going to happen anytime soon regardless of that.

>>2928053
How so? I only know of his 2 shitty videos on the Bosnian war. And if you didn't know, the Republic of Serbia and the Serb Republic (Republika Srpska) are two different places.
And I wouldn't call either neocrusader. In Serbia the war in Bosnia was sold as helping the Serbs there protect themselves from the Muslims (which was the name of the Bosniak ethnicity in Yugoslavia) and Croats. In Srpska there was more talk about ethnic superiority (how they were the cowards who converted during Turkish rule and such claims) or them literally being Turks. And Serb ultranationalists generally hate the Catholic church.
Serb ultranationalists in Serbia do have anti-muslim sentiment, but you can't exactly call them neocrusader, and it's not as widespread as hate based on nationality. Contrary to what Westerners claim on the Internet, the religion-based hate comes from ethnicity-based hate, not the other way around. It essentially stems from territorial disputes between national/ethnic groups in Bosnia and Kosovo.
As for the Catholic church hate, a decent chunk of ultranationalists believe in conspiracy theories about how the Vatican created the Yugoslav wars and made the West hate Serbia due to medieval-era political conflicts between the Vatican and Constantinople. They also seem to lump together protestant and catholic countries as influenced by the Vatican.

>>2928053
Yugoslavia broke the blockade against Iraq while islamic shitholes facilitated it

>>2928088
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia_and_Montenegro
retard

>>2928047
The issue with this is that governments can be changed so it does not matter much what a single politician does or doesn't. On the other hand, masses giving a serb "hitler" honorific funeral will not be overlooked. Anyway I think the EU expansion will be stalled for quite some time due to Eurosceptic parties/politicians taking over and reconsidering their contributions to the union.

>>2926548
>The question is ownership and not who does what.
And this is myopic. In two ways:

1. Ownership is a legal construct. What is legally, formally, officially, real and what is, well, really real are not the same question. (Do gays disappear when there is a law stating "nobody is gay"?)
   
2. It makes a huge difference whether ownership is fragmented (the sailors own the specific ship they are on) or unified (working class owns resources as a common pool). The problem with capitalism isn't merely the ruling class exploiting the workers. It is also the chaos that happens when the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. We need more coordinating and synchronizing of actions and this requires centralizing information.

>>2926938
>Ownership is a legal construct. What is legally, formally, officially, real and what is, well, really real are not the same question.
Agreed but this is not the counter you imagine it being. Marx talks about relations of production not deeds of it.

Real ownership means that someone actually holds decision rights and has a claim to surplus. A Soviet enterprise "owned by the people" where gosplan and the party nomenklatura made the decisions and controlled the surplus was not worker-owned in any real sense only on paper.

Formal common ownership plus a centralized apparatus just creates a new class that controls the means of production.

>We need more coordinating and synchronizing of actions and this requires centralizing information.

This is what I disagree with. Factory manager knows the machine is about to fail. Worker knows which suppliers parts are junk. Consumer doesnt know what they want until they see it. None of this fits neatly into a report to central planners.

And everything changes constantly. By the time data is collected and turned into a plan, its outdated.

There is also the problem of creative destruction. If enterprises that arent allowed to fail have no reason to economize and streamline their processes.
Post too long. Click here to view the full text.

>>2927043
>Formal common ownership plus a centralized apparatus just creates a new class that controls the means of production.
Centralized decisions don't logically require a special group at the center, but this is of course threat we must deal with. We need:

1. sortition-selected chambers as filters any proposed regulation must go through
   
2. sortition-selected juries deciding on punishment with the ability to nullify regardless of what the law says
   
3. people setting min and max income by regular referenda
   
4. remuneration in consumption points and avoiding any in-kind perks as much as possible (since these obfuscate how big the differences can be and undermine point 3).

we can talk about all kinds of theoretical ways to democratize the workplace and blow lots of hot air out of our assholes fantasizing and conjecturing, or we could just look at the only real-world proven example of workplace democracy - labor unions. in the most aggressively anti-labor country in the world, the united states, we are all brainwashed into believing that labor is autocratic by default, that the baseline lowest energy state of industry is to be a dictatorship where the employer has all of the power and the employees have none. but that's complete and utter bullshit, labor organization is not a novel or revolutionary idea and it has existed in various forms for as long as hired labor has existed, in the pre-industrial era local merchants and craftsmen organized and helped each other through trade guilds, even lowly serfs living in bondage under feudal lords managed to organize and help each other to some extent by way of the church. it takes tremendous resources and effort to put a stop to things like collective organization and mutual aid. the american system is not the normal way of things, it is an unbalanced unnatural system that was meticulously and painstakingly manufactured and sustained by actively criminalizing any attempts at labor organization by workers and granting legal immunity and continuous support to businesses in their war against the workers, even to the point of using violence and lethal force if necessary. people don't want to be starving and suffering and helpless and they aren't stupid or masochistic, they don't endure terrible dehumanizing conditions because they don't have enough sense to figure a way out of it, they endure it because there is no way out of it, because active powerful outside forces are continually at work keeping them right where they are forever and ever.

If random people off the street can't wander around a nuclear power plant and press the shiny buttons it's still private property.

>>2928007
>People are simply pointing out the asymmetry in the global political economy and how that asymmetry affects the proletariat's consciousness in the North and South.
But when you are presented with the fact that this asymmetry is in fact actually quite minor and that the Global South has for decades been unable to produce a serious challenge to bourgeois power you just handwave it away. Whatever explanation you give for the tendencies of first world workers has to also account for the tendencies of those in the third world, and those tendencies are looking increasingly similar.
>Nobody admitted that, jarhead
Its the logical conclusion for your understanding of how Northern workers "benefit" from imperialism, which boils down to pointing out that more intense exploitation in the South allows for less intense exploitation in the North. If that's the case, then it also follows that more intense exploitation in the far periphery allows for less intense exploitation in the semi-periphery. This means that semi-peripheral workers as a whole "benefit" from imperialism through the exact same mechanisms, but to a lesser degree.
>And you're STILL conflating similar tendencies to structural position.
A basic materialist understanding of the relationship between material conditions and consciousness should lead us to conclude that if they are exhibiting similar political tendencies that this is indicative of similar structural positions. Or alternatively, that there is another explanation for these tendencies unrelated to imperialism which can explain their prevalence in both the periphery and core. If not, then where are these tendencies in the Global South coming from?
>Why did you truncate my reply? If you're not a vulgar retard, the relations of production are absolutely different.
So your position is that workers in the North and South aren't even members of the same class? Because if they occupy different positions in the relations of production then this is what we would have to conclude. In fact they do not, they are all proletarians. If they sell their labour power and are exploited through this, then they occupy the same class position. Variations (even large ones) in the rate of exploitation don't crePost too long. Click here to view the full text.

>>2928109
>But when you are presented with the fact that this asymmetry is in fact actually quite minor
You haven't not actually presented the "asymmetry" is minor.
>that the Global South has for decades been unable to produce a serious challenge to bourgeois power you just handwave it away.
My original point was that the "South has a more immediate and structurally grounded anti-imperialist consciousness" because of their direct experiences with it, nothing more. So this is yet another strawman. Similarities in tendencies are not the same as similarities in consciousness, and consciousness on its own does not necessarily translate into action. Why this immediate consciousness hasn't translated in sufficient action and organizational capacity has been discussed ad nauseam: >>2927389 >>2927525
>Whatever explanation you give for the tendencies of first world workers has to also account for the tendencies of those in the third world, and those tendencies are looking increasingly similar.
It does. The core and periphery are linked by unequal exchange. The mechanisms between North and South are different, so consciousness is materially mediated differently even if tendencies look similar on the surface. You have not demonstrated why this is incorrect. Simply tendencies look similar and therefore consciousness must be similar confuses the form with the cause.
>Its the logical conclusion for your understanding of how Northern workers "benefit" from imperialism, which boils down to pointing out that more intense exploitation in the South allows for less intense exploitation in the North.
Nobody said this. I said Northern workers benefit from imperialism through a net transfer of surplus from South to North. Keep strawmanning, though.
>If that's the case, then it also follows that more intense exploitation in the far periphery allows for less intense exploitation in the semi-periphery. This means that semi-peripheral workers as a whole "benefit" from imperialism through the exact same mechanisms, bPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

CONTINUED
>>2928142
>>2928109
>You're taking that statement way too literally. I'm simply pointing out that any struggle waged by workers to reclaim their own surplus is not a struggle to obtain a portion of imperial plunder.
No, I'm not. it was a dumb statement. Of course a strike over wages is not consciously a struggle for imperial plunder. That was never the claim. The claim is that the material conditions under which Northern workers function, i.e., the wage levels demand, the social wage they access, and the commodities they consume, are largely sustained by imperial rent. The struggle may be presented as reclaiming their own surplus, but the terrain of that struggle is shaped by imperialism, even if those workers are not consciously aware of it.
>Come on man, if you saw those kinds of opinion polls in Europe or the US you would trumpet it as irrefutable evidence that Northerners are all unreformable treatlers.
No, I wouldn't. I'd call you an "unreformable treatler" because you're a psychopath piece of shit that joined a homocidal, imperialist military, but I wouldn't call the average Northern worker that.
>You can't just handwave away evidence that flies directly in the face of your assertions about more advanced forms of class and anti-imperialist consciousness in the South.
I never said the South had a more "advanced" consciousness. I said it had "a more immediate and structurally grounded anti-imperialist consciousness" because it directly experiences it on a day to day basis. However, I was pushing back on your careless interpretation that polling data because it did not evidence a "piss poor" anti-imperialist consciousness.
>These people saw the US attack their neighbour, kidnap its president, and impose a puppet government and they cheered for it.
The poll you cited does not show "they cheered for it." On the contrary, it showed they understood the real threat of American imperialism to their country.
>And it's not just that, Brazil is on the verge of electing another Bolsonaro. Argentina elected Millei. Clearly open Ameriphile fascists are entirely capable of winnPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

>>2928142
>>2928143
>>2928109
TL;DR another abomination of misrepresentations, faulty logic, and outright falsehoods. You're still conflating exploitation with net benefit and repressive capacity with stable bourgeois rule; inferring structure from consciousness; ignoring data; and treating repression as refutation.

>>2928142
>You haven't not actually presented the "asymmetry" is minor.
Fuck sake, I'm illiterate and tired.
*You haven't actually presented this "asymmetry" as minor.

>>2927993
bro I need to hear your opinion on this: is force the cause of motion, or is it an epistemological abstraction of the nature of the relationship between mass and acceleration?

>>2925999
intersectionality is a trvth nvke if you just look at it as a list of things porky uses to divide the proletariat, and a list of things that proles should not discriminate against each other for. it only becomes libmaxxing if you try to use it as some kind of basis for dethroning class as the primary contradiction of class society

>>2926397
>the problem isn't that class exists, the problem is that we believe that it exists
isn't this just literally idealism in the sense that it suggests that material conditions arise from human thought, rather than the other way around. we see in the universe that the mind lags behind the material conditions, both in terms of chronological emergence, and in terms of apprehension. the universe was around for a long time evolving silently before life showed up, contrary to creationist myth. once life arrived it was a long time before that life was capable of "thought" and wasn't something like a cluster of cells in the ocean. once "thought" emerged it took a long time before language, tool making, and symbols came about. So the material conditions for life, thought, language, and tool making are a prerequisite for those things emerging. only once agricultural society emerged and surplus accumulation became possible did class society emerge, because class society is a product of humans finally being able to produce more than they need to survive, but that surplus accumulating only among certain groups due an asymmetry of ownership. Ownership is material insofar as class society divided land and natural resources according to proximity and the ability to defend hoarded resources. Property law emerges from the intellectual effort to sustain this state of affairs by superstructural means like secular and religious authority. We see then that class society is not a result of believing in it. class society emerges from material conditions of surplus accumulation in settled agricultural communities. class society evolves alongside modes of production, means of production, and productive forces (technology). the conditions for abolishing class society come about with certain historical developments that are (relatively) recent.

>>2927993
class as a concept only emerged to describe the material conditions of exploitation and surplus accumulation, long after those phenomena had already emerged in practice. The "fiction" as you call it is actually a theoretical descriptor that emerged after class had already become a fact in practice.

>>2925999
>intersectionalism
Behold the Coat of Arms for Kingdom of the Two Sicilies! Everone and everything is represented and at least it's easier to read. (Does anyone think it's a mystery that Fridays For Future lost momentum and never really made it past the initial stage of PVRE YOUTHFVL ENERGY?)

Venezuela's Maduro to face new US charges over alleged torture of Americans, official says
Maduro's tenure was marked by tensions with the United States. Washington accused ‌his ⁠government of detaining Americans as leverage to extract concessions such as relief from financial sanctions. Americans whom the US classified as wrongfully detained during Maduro's tenure included five oil executives arrested on graft charges. They were freed in 2022 in exchange for two of Flores' nephews who had been ​convicted in the US ​of drug trafficking.
https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/maduro-wife-expected-face-new-charges-over-alleged-torture-americans-cnn-says-2026-10-07/

Detained immigrants at Georgia ICE facility launch mass hunger strike
Some of the men participating in the hunger strike released a video and an open letter, requesting they be released while they continue pursuing their asylum and immigration cases. Two Russian asylum seekers detained in Folkston also released a document they wrote, outlining what they claim to be “violations” inside, including allegations of substandard medical care, threats by GEO Group guards, moldy food and a lack of due process.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/oct/07/ice-detention-facility-georgia

Missouri sued over alleged decades of underfunding at historically Black university
The complaint, filed in federal court in the US District Court for the Western District of Missouri Central Division, seeks compensatory damages under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act for what plaintiffs describe as "educational ​and economic injuries" caused by decades of underfunding. It also seeks an injunction requiring Missouri to fully match Lincoln University's ​federal land-grant funding in the future.
https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/missouri-sued-over-alleged-decades-underfunding-historically-black-university-2026-10-07/

Post too long. Click here to view the full text.

The Gen Z revolution reaches Europe – Is Britain next?
What began with an 87-year-old disabled woman being evicted from her home in Madrid has developed into a revolt over the spiralling cost of rent and housing. Within a week, protestors occupied the Puerta del Sol in Madrid, and encampments began to spread across Spain. Half a million people took to the streets of the capital on 3 October, paralysing the city as protesters chanted: “Either the rentier economy falls, or the government does”. Fast-forward to the time of writing – the Spanish government has effectively collapsed. The ‘Socialist’ Party Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez was forced to call snap elections after failing to pass decrees aimed at placating the movement. From Madrid to Seville, and now Barcelona, chants of “your profits, our misery” and “no solution without expropriation” have rung out late into the evening. The radicalisation of the youth is palpable. Red flags have been paraded across the streets and main squares. In one viral clip, an incredulous interviewer asks a protester: “So people are chanting socialism or barbarism here?” to which she responds “Sí”. No further explanation needed. The movement is posing the question: who does the city belong to? Does it belong to the investment funds that speculate on housing and have doubled rents over the last decade, or to the ordinary workers who run the city, but yet are struggling to get by? Some sections of the movement are now calling for a general strike. Watch this space.
https://communist.red/the-gen-z-revolution-reaches-europe-is-britain-next/

Why we should not take sides in war - Devrim Valerian
The Prime Minister wears a T-shirt now. It costs 80 quid, and his jeans cost £295. The very nice Harrington jacket he’s often seen in costs £695. Looking like an ordinary bloke is expensive these days. He’s apologised over Gaza too. He said that Labour “didn’t get it right” and “needs to do better”. It sounded like the British government was finally going to take a position on genocide. Even the climb down sounded a bit more radical than the days of Keir Starmer; “There’s increasing evidence that war crimes appear to have been committed.” But then he told us that it's not a matter for him to decide upon. Instead, it “must be for the internatPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

TYBNA

>>2928058
>Lula pushed what is being dubbed internally the "fear strategy" ​to remind voters of the risks a Bolsonaro presidency he says would ⁠pose to popular social benefits
somehow I dont think this is effective. Its the strategy all loosing center left guys use against the far right. Promise them to actually improve things ya idiot. Promise them to actually rebuild a better system. Although its likely too late, he should have done it already. Use and abuse your fucking power, why are only fascists comprador doing it.

>Germany’s former foreign intelligence chief arrested on suspicion of espionage and attempted treason
for anyone wondering, he conspired with israelis (ofc)

>Philippine Army published photos of a seven-year-old child with personal details under the pretext of a “birthday party” celebration to urge their NPA mother to surrender
what a bunch of absolute bastards

>Venezuela's Maduro to face new US charges over alleged torture of Americans
why even bother with this farce. Just do your sham trial already (did you know that looking for sham trial on google propose immediately moscow trials? tech porkies know how to protect their class)

>>2928061
Not only that, but Lula was also an arrogant old man for not choosing and backing his successor earlier, stepping back and retiring from politics. His third term has been mediocre at best. He failed to deal with the debt + high interest rate problem, which is probably what weighs most heavily on the majority of the population, and he’ll be leaving office at 80 years old, 84 if he miraculously wins.

I also don’t think there would have been a Kamala effect if he had backed Alckmin (his VP) as the candidate. Given that the margin between Flávio and Lula’s camp is likely to be relatively narrow, Alckmin could have picked up a meaningful share of the electorate in the South and Southeast, which, btw, is leaning even further to the right because of anti-petism, crime and economic reasons.

>asking for handouts on dying leftist site
Giga

Moved to >>>/siberia/830153.