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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internet about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
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>"Wanted to have an adventure and kill some people. Joined up in ‘04, did Fallujah and Ramadi, and managed both. Hell of an excellent experience."

>"There are times in this world when, for the good of tolerance and humanity, you need to kill a motherfucker. Sadly most people who are true believers in tolerance and humanity find that activity repulsive. Which I suppose is morally good, but pragmatically a shortfall."


>"Out of curiosity, what would you say to the many Marines and Soldiers who took trophies and desecrated bodies while fighting the Japanese? I find the urinating on bodies as a poor choice, but only because of the current state of media affairs. It's amusing that today killing a man isn't worthy of comment, but god forbid you display dominance. Only 50 years ago, and for the rest of the history of warfare, this stuff was pretty standard."


>"We are going to kill thousands. By the end of it, it may be millions. Our way of life is better, and if that is what it takes to prevail, let's get this show on the road. I don't disagree with your point, I just disagree with the fact you seem to think we shouldn't do it."


https://archive.org/download/graham_platner_reddit_comments/graham_platner_reddit_comments.txt

the tattoo and the racist and misogynistic stuff graham platner has said in the past were certainly red flags for me, but honestly when i actually started reading through the comments myself, i realized it's actually worse than people seem to realize. it goes beyond just teenage edgelord internet shenanigans, this is someone who seems to have a genuine fascination with killing and hurting people, he talks about it a lot and brags about it a lot, he claims that he joined the military because he wanted to kill people and that he enjoyed killing people and he constantly talks about how empowering it feels and how much he misses it.

i've known a lot of people who have served in the military and i've never known any of them to say things like this. but i have heard a few of them talk about meeting certain other members of the military who did. most people who join the military are decent normal people who join for the usual kinds of reasons - Post too long. Click here to view the full text.
220 posts and 37 image replies omitted.

And lastly. Imagine if bad empanada was chairman of aipac. Imagine if bad empanada had infinte power and wealth of aipac and he focused all of it on platner and like 2 other like he has. I say this nonsense because that is what democrats actually believe. Now imagine how easily and how few money it take to destroy platner if they didnt pull punches. How bad empanada could make a single video instead of a hundred to destroy platner. He incel nazi rapist redditor. Anyone can destroy him, so why is aipac spending nothing against him?

>>2833356
To be fair to Kyle, Fetterman was a totally different person back then, before the brain damage. Though Fetterman has always been pro Israel.

>>2829716
The inverse was true prior to Biden 2020, where the GOP was still divided between centre-right neocons and populist Tea party-style MAGApedes, compared to the Democrat Party which was less divided and more uniform in their push towards neoliberalism. The democrats were and still are the party of the bourgeoisie, it’s just that Palestine and the virulent agitation of the Jewish lobby has led to a split between the gerantocratic DNC and the younger and more populist voter base, with the DSA being just a tool to deradicalise the latter into liberal electoralism that leads nowhere (as is the case with AOC and The Squad, Zohran, Kat, etc…).

But fast forward to Trump 2024, and the GOP is more unified than ever behind Trump to the point of being little more than a quasi-personality cult full of opportunistic “preachers” of MAGA-ism.

As for the Democrats’ split, comparing it to the MAGA-2010s RNC split is too generous since the DNC never really had to deal with a serious populist blowback within their ranks. I would say it’s more like the Democrat version of the Tea Party more than anything else, although I’m not optimistic about it since the Democratic Party as a whole acts more like a privileged club than as an actual political party.

>>2833372
Wrong. Fetterman had stroke before he was elected. Kyle sucked him off for years.

>>2833419
Fetterman only showed his true colors [or damaged ones] after he got elected.



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227 posts and 77 image replies omitted.

Canada has declared a recession

>>2829773
So how fucked are we?

>>2829818
idk but apparently we're the only one in the G7 to have one.

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>>2833395
>"White supremacists in Shawinigan"
>Shawinigan
>Indigenous origin, derived from the Algonquin word Ashawenikan (and variations in languages like Attikamek and Abenaki)
el Paso Texas vibes



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🇫🇷🇫🇷🇫🇷 Aux armes, citoyens ! 🇫🇷🇫🇷🇫🇷
Thread #2

French people deserve a safe space and guarantees for their continued existence on loser imageboards!

Français! Ne succombez pas à l'impérialisme anglochiotte!
178 posts and 38 image replies omitted.

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La bourgeoisie commence à comprendre que la meilleure idée pour fragiliser LFI pour 2027 c'est de pousser les décoloniaux et les racisés de gauche radicale à faire sécession ou de prendre le contrôle. Bagayoko est pas con, mais je pense que certains mis de côté pour les élections comme Rachel Keke ou les décoloniaux zinzins comme Bouteldja pourraient voir cette opportunité comme un moyen de revenir en force ou forcer Mélenchon a faire des concessions.


>>2833385
Bouteldja est une rouge-brun complètement folle que plus personne n'écoute à gauche en dehors des punk à chien de zawa prod par contre. Je connais assez mal les autres cela dit.

Mais vous êtes d'une mauvaise foi

J'aime pas les staliniens



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The only war NATO did nothing wrong
>body too short or empty
>body too short or empty
>body too short or empty
>body too short or empty
>body too short or empty
6 posts and 1 image reply omitted.

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>>2826390
serbia is small kosovo
kosovo will have it's day

>>2825875
Be them ziggers or nafoids, hypocrisy and hateful racist genocidal intentions against Ummah nations is what compels judeochristian worldview

Muslim proletariat will free of our shackles when we acknowledge judeochristians want nothing but murder, torture, rape and enslave us

Bad Empanada completely destroyed any pro-genocide (serb) argument with his last video

>>2826390
FREE KOSOVO
PALESTINE IS SERBIA

>>2833389
If Serbia laid claim to Israel would they kill all the Jews and the Muslims?



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>>2830897
>if tomorrow every CPUSA member died screaming in a fiery car crash you would be a very happy camper but nothing would change. your party would still be irrelevant, there would still be dozens of nominally communist parties without any power or membership or militancy and the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie would still keep chugging along through the DNC and RNC.


To focus on the individuals within the organizations, to speculate on their personal psychology, careerist ambitions, or individual "bad faith" is to fall into the trap of liberal idealism. It mistakes the symptom (the behavior of the individual) for the disease (the structural function of the apparatus that contains them). The material reality is that the DSA and the CPUSA, PSL, and the likes are not simply "misguided" organizations; they are integral functionaries in the Non-Profit Industrial Complex (NPIC), which operates as a domestic counter-insurgency machine. To analyze this correctly is to see that the function of these "leftist" parties, irrespective of the intentions of their members, is to absorb, professionalize, and neutralize revolutionary energy before it can pose a material threat to capital.

The term "Non-Profit Industrial Complex" describes the sprawling network of foundations, charities, and service organizations that, under a legal framework, form an apparatus of social control. With over 1.5 million such organizations in the U.S. and combined assets in the trillions, this is not an auxiliary to the state; it is a central pillar of its hegemonic project.

The U.S. government and the CIA have a long history of using foundations and NGOs to destabilize hostile states, funding militant movements abroad to create chaos. At home, the same technique is used for the opposite purpose, to stabilize the state by capturing and misdirecting domestic dissent. As Robert L. Allen documented, the Ford Foundation gave millions to Black organizations in the 1960s, deliberately funding moderate leaders who would steer the movement away from revolution and toward integration into the capitalist system. This is not speculation; it is documented counter-insurgency tactic that has become more complex, and more embedded into material reality over decades.

The "Shadow of the Shadow State", Ruth Wilson Gilmore describes thePost too long. Click here to view the full text.
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>>2833169
>restaurants and enjoy themselves gave a certain sickness to my stomach.

It wasn't like I was walking around pissed off all the time or hating happiness. I'm just not great at writing this stuff I talk better than I type.

What changed was I stopped feeling like I was part of that whole "happy consumer" world. Like I didn't exist in that system anymore and i didnt realize i was even that deep in it before, until i was jolted outside of it. My joy didn't come from buying shit or having things. It came from just… surviving. From waking up after a cold night and seeing the sun rise, seeing a new city, or meeting a genuine person, or seeing the stars, trees, moon or even sylines of corporate monstrosities, i would sit there and think about how its beautiful in a way, the power of workers, to build all that. That's it. That was enough. And being around other people who were doing the same thing put in the same struggle period felt real like a brotherhood i never felt in my life. i grew up with a phone so having no phone and digital cameras for almost a year was so life changing.

I'd go back into the city into those gentrified neighborhoods, and I'd see everyone spending money, laughing, buying overpriced coffee, looking happy. And it hit me they felt fake even the leftists id see. Not fake like they're lying, but fake like they're living in a bubble. An isolated little world. And that realization helped my theory grow more than any book ever did. It changed me as a person, not just as a thinker. I wasn't angry. I just saw things differently. And I couldn't unsee it. now im in a union doing carpentry and tbh i feel more embedded in the true working class than the direction i was in. juche is not a cult, it is a weapon that forges individuals and collectives into self reliant ballers

>>2833169
> Capitalism loves the "no pain, no gain" hustle. Grind culture. Work yourself to death for the boss. That's fine. But when communists bring that same energy and when we say you have to suffer a little to break your soft spots suddenly it's a "cult" and a "struggle period" is brainwashing.

i noticed that too. really good point.

>>2833169
>This stuff is real. It's a way to turn soft labor aristocrats into ballers. A way to turn crakkkers into race traitors against the protestant zionist settler state. I'm not joking at all this changed my life forever.

that's awesome. part of me wants that but it's too late for me. i'm already an old softie with an autistic kid. don't want to risk innocent people in my life over that kinda thing. but power to you. wish i was that brave when i was younger.

>>2833169
>But when communists bring that same energy and when we say you have to suffer a little to break your soft spots suddenly it's a "cult" and a "struggle period" is brainwashing.
If it's for anythting other than class struggle (nationalism, "opressed nations", religion,…) it IS a cult and brainwashing.

Whoah back in the day when I was an anarchopunk hobo kid I used to pick up the free stacks of MIM notes they left lying around town and sell them for 50 cents to get dope money. This was was mostly for the entertainment value of IRL trolling the yuppies tbh, didn't make much more than just flying an "Ugly, Broke, and sober." sign but it was fun. Sometimes we would roll up on people with a crew of 5 crusty gutterpunks and pitbulls and pretty much intimidate them into buying the paper, calling them KKKapitalist Swine if they didn't. Am I OG Juche Gang?



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What country is the closest to a Communist revolution? It doesn't even have to be close, just the closest.

Perhaps one of the Gulf States will see a slave uprising? Think about it.
63 posts and 6 image replies omitted.

>>2828269
Germany

>>2832995
I don't think it's being propped up by the US, though the INC and people live Sonam Wangchuk (climate activist and pro-Ladakh statehood activist, general thorn in the side for BJP) are heavily involved in the moment. The movement itself is mostly targeted at the Education Ministry and the Chief Justice (who called the unemployed youth attacking the Ministry "cockroaches", hence the name). I don't see how this serves US interests. Or maybe I am being short sighted and should TRVST JDPON Don's PLQN or whatever.

>>2833033
IMO all current Indian politicians are Pro-US, because they don't like China. Trump's stupidity has made them somewhat backtrack on this, but they would 100% align with US than with China if need be.

>>2833277
>Germany
>Fucking Germany
Out of all the countries in Europe sans butthurt belt you pick the country with the least amount of revolutionary potential. France has an actual chance compared to Deutschland

No latam country, people here are retarded and beyond and are actually becoming rabid evangelicals and libertarians like crazy. I imagine latam going through a full blown fascist era before communist revolution becomes a possibility.

>>2833277
un-democratic parties are illegal there. Not even Japan is that insane



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When we talk about wars in which one side was clearly more "correct" than the other, we generally think of modern wars. WWII, The American Civil War, the Russian Civil War, French Revolution, Wars of Decolonization, the Vietnam War, etc. But what about BEFORE that? In the pre-enlightenment days these seem to have been much less common. That isn't to say they didn't exist, of course. There were plenty of Peasant's Revolts and Slave Uprisings and whatnot.

So what are some wars pre-1492 that you feel had a very clear-cut good and bad side? Bonus points for wars between states rather than uprisings.

Note: a side of a conflict being "Historically Progressive" will not automatically make it "good". British Colonialism in India was historically progressive, that doesn't mean it was good.
20 posts omitted.

>>2832700
>interfeudalist conflicts
No war but peasant revolution.

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Every national liberation war and every peasant and slave uprising

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>>2832700
The Ottoman Empire was the sword and shield of the Ummah and all of Asia, Ottoman jihad saved Islamic ans Asian peoples from sharing the same fate as the ameridians

The day they showed weakness and failed to defend their Muslim brothers it was the day judeochristian whites began with a series of oppressions and atrocities such as the genocide of circassians, the bosnian genocide, the genocide of balkan muslims, zionism (arab genocide), the war on """"terror"""" by judeochristians responsible for the holocaust of 10 million Muslims and the displacement of 38 millions, etc and etc…

All this horror will end when the Ummah unites once again, destroy Israel, build nukes and point them at every single judeochristian european and american capital

>>2833371
In fact when the Spanish tried to invade and genocide innocent Algerians and Tunisians Hernan Cortez was captured by the Ottomans and the Padishah spoke of the depravity and atrocities he commited in Mexico and aaid he thought the Ottomans were another Mexico

>>2833371
Thank god they allied with the anti-colonial Hohenzollern and Habsburg then.



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A general to compile all news, articles, essays and info related to the Greater Middle East-North Africa region.

Creating this general in an effort to centralize all the info that currently gets posted to 5 different threads concerning conflicts and developments in the MENA region. Seeing how slow they generally are and at risk of getting bumped off besides the Palestine thread and that it’s likely people interested in Yemen, Syria, Iran, Sudan and Palestine are likely also interested in news and info from across the region I think it would be useful to post everything in one place.

This will be the inaugural edition to see how it goes. Welcome!
584 posts and 180 image replies omitted.

'A big pact': How the US plans to unite Libya through two ruling families

The US is crafting an agreement to unify oil-rich Libya around the country’s two most powerful families, as the US-Israeli war on Iran chokes global energy flows, current and former western officials, Arab sources briefed on the matter, and analysts told Middle East Eye.
The power-sharing agreement seeks to unify Libya through the Dbeibeh family in western Libya and the Haftar family in the east, while replacing each family’s leaders with a new generation.
While the effort has been underway for some time, it has gained new focus as the war on Iran sends oil prices higher, drawing US energy companies back to the country with Africa’s largest proven oil reserves.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/big-pact-how-us-plans-unite-libya-through-two-ruling-families

US lobby firm secures $2m contract to whitewash image of Libya’s Haftar

A US lobbying firm closely connected to the Trump administration has been handed a $2m contract to represent Khalifa Haftar, a Libyan warlord and de facto leader of large swaths of the country who faces multiple allegations of human rights abuses.
Lobbying disclosure agreements reported by the Washington Post revealed that Ballard Partners, which is staffed by former Trump administration officials, has agreed to advance the interests of Haftar, general commander of his self-styled Libyan Arab Armed Forces (LAAF), and his son Sadddam, chief of staff of the ground forces.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/us-lobby-firm-secures-2m-contract-whitewash-khalifa-haftars-image

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The June 1st Breakthrough: The day history was rewritten.
The June 1, 2004 Offensive was far more than a simple military operation in the history of the Kurdish Freedom Movement; it was a decisive turning point in philosophical, strategic, and ideological terms. Officially announced by the People's Defense Center Headquarters after a five-year unilateral ceasefire, this move was a comprehensive and planned response to the liquidation process created by the 1999 international conspiracy.

Between 1999 and 2004, global powers and the Turkish state implemented a large-scale liquidation strategy, effectively considering the movement "finished." Unilateral ceasefires, withdrawals, peace offers, and calls for dialogue were systematically rejected by Ankara.

During this period, policies of cultural genocide, village evacuations, intense military operations, and political repression continued uninterrupted. Internally, liberal and liquidationist tendencies weakened the organizational structure from within, while internationally, efforts to redefine the Kurdish people as a passive and submissive element accelerated.

June 1, 2004, was a courageous and decisive step taken precisely in the face of this challenging double siege. It was a historic move that pulled the movement out of disarray and reorganized it, preserving commitment to the Leadership paradigm and initiating a new period of struggle.

Following this breakthrough, and with the definitive abandonment of the classical state-power-centered understanding of revolution, Rêber Apo's democratic, ecological, and women's liberation paradigm officially took shape in 2005 and was systematically implemented across a wide geographical area.

The guerrilla approach, moving away from the goal of establishing a state or creating a new mechanism of oppression, has focused on strengthening society's capacity for self-governance, developing democratic autonomous structures, and protecting ecological balance. The aim is not to seize power, but to organize society in non-state spheres, build democratic confederalism from the bottom up, and offer a concrete, viable alternative to the problems created by both real socialism and capitalist modernity.

This paradigm shift, along with the process following the June 1st Uprising, has made it one of the unique revolutionary models of the 21st century.

Post too long. Click here to view the full text.

British soldier killed in training exercise accident in northern Iraq
>A British Army soldier was killed in a training exercise in northern Iraq on Sunday, the Ministry of Defence has announced.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62dygprnnvo

'training accident'

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‘Commune organization constitutes a fundamental pillar of our system in Maxmur’
Speaking to ANF, Maxmur Democratic People’s Council Co-Chair Nüdem Yaman provided information about the activities carried out by the communes within Martyr Rustem Cudi Camp in southern Kurdistan (northern Iraq).

Drawing attention to Kurdish leader Abdullah Öcalan’s “Call for Peace and Democratic Society,” Nüdem Yaman stated that following the call, the people of Maxmur Camp have been acting on the basis of Öcalan’s ideas, philosophy, and the system he proposes.

<‘The commune is a fundamental pillar of our system’

Referring to the commune system envisioned by Öcalan, Nüdem Yaman stressed that commune organization constitutes a fundamental pillar of their system.

“Leader Öcalan always emphasized the following: ‘Why are communes important? Why do we focus on communes? What level should the communes reach?’ Through his books and manifestos, the Leader has presented this as a way of life to all peoples of the world, especially the Kurdish people,” she said.

Recalling that the commune system has a much deeper historical foundation than capitalism and hegemonic structures, Nüdem Yaman noted that over time the commune system had been distanced from its original essence and added: “Leader Öcalan wants the commune system to return to its true essence. The very meaning of a commune comes from gathering together; through it, society comes together and discusses its problems. History also provides examples of this. One of them is the Paris Commune. Although it did not survive for long, Leader Öcalan benefits from its experiences and adopts them as a guiding line.”

<‘The People’s Council began reorganizing the communes’

Stating that the Maxmur People’s Council launched a process aimed at the education, organization, and reconstruction of communes following Öcalan’s “Manifesto for a Democratic and Communal Society,” Nüdem Yaman explained: “A process of approximately three months was carried out. During this period, homes were visited in order to organize the communes, and discussions were held with the people and with individuals. Discussions were also conducted with experienced and elderly members of society. Eventually, neighborhood meetings were organized, local administrations were elected, commune centers (komîngeh) were establishePost too long. Click here to view the full text.

mass shooting in occupied palestinee
One killed, five injured in central Israel shooting as security forces kill two suspects

At least one person has been killed and five others injured in a shooting incident near Kochav Yair, in central Israel, according to Israeli police and emergency services.
The attack took place at multiple locations close to the separation wall and the boundary with the occupied West Bank.
Israeli authorities say two suspects were shot and killed as security forces responded to the incident.
Residents in nearby areas, including routes toward Qalqilya, were told to remain indoors as searches continued.



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  1. How would anarchists respond to the criticism that, over 150 years of organized anarchist thought (from Bakunin and the International in 1866 onward, or even Stirner before that), their analysis of exploitation has remained largely vague and general?
  2. How do anarchists explain the origins and development of exploitation? And how would they account for the evolution of society without relying on concepts like class struggle and the dictatorship of the proletariat as scientific tools?
  3. Are anarchists generally committed to social ownership of the means of production, or do they tend to favor small-scale production and some forms of private ownership? How would they address the claim that anarchism is just bourgeois individualism turned on its head?
  4. How do anarchists propose to organize and educate workers for class struggle while refusing participation in bourgeois political institutions? How would they avoid offering what critics call one‑sided, disconnected fixes, especially when global coordination seems necessary and anarchism’s individualist tendencies may undermine it?
  5. How would anarchists respond to the observation that anarchism lacks a unified doctrine, elementary revolutionary teaching, or basic theory? How do they view the historical fragmentation of the workers’ movement often attributed to anarchist influence, and what can be learned from the short‑lived anarchist “state‑like” experiments?
  6. How would anarchists avoid the charge that rejecting bourgeois politics in practice ends up subordinating the working class to bourgeois politics—all under the guise of being “above” or “outside” traditional political action?
21 posts and 4 image replies omitted.

>>2832551
>Capitalism and wage-work has become universal
It has except it's not the only form of domination exerced nowadays. There are just multiple levels on which domination is applied. What do you think contradicts most a woman's self-emancipation in the third world (~35% of the global population), her patriarchal domination engrained in her society, or her local work as a cleaning lady for the local bourgeoisie ?

>Sorry, but what does this mean

Alienation = being stripped off something by external factors.
Alienation from potential = being stripped off your potential (i.e. being more satisfied with your work, having more control over your own life etc) by external constraints (like the wage-labor form but not exclusively).
Domination = a control of your freedom imposed on you by other people

>he came to the idea that what needs to be abolished is the bureaucratic-military state machine, not the state in its totality

What does "state" mean to you ? Do you think anarchists want to abolish any social organization ?

>would an anarchist (party) ever participate in a bourgeois parliament?

Again this is a redundant dichotomy because participation in the state through electoralism will never bring about an anarchist revolution (or a communist one too)
But yes, if somehow in an alternative universe the control of the political power could simply be won through elections then yes, anarchists would.
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>>2831936
reality is vague. subatomic particles can't even have their position and velocity known at the same time, and existentially they are excitations of a universal substrate. will you fight or perish? That is the question.

>>2831874
>anarchists when they succeed actually implement marxism
>marxists when they succeed become capitalists
ftfy

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>How would anarchists respond to the criticism that, over 150 years of organized anarchist thought (from Bakunin and the International in 1866 onward, or even Stirner before that), their analysis of exploitation has remained largely vague and general?
Don't care, exploitation is something I feel and intuitively understand.
>How do anarchists explain the origins and development of exploitation? And how would they account for the evolution of society without relying on concepts like class struggle and the dictatorship of the proletariat as scientific tools?
The origins of exploitation lie in the development of agriculture/civilization, and the stratification of society that emerged through that. Since then, class conflict has been a definitive factor in the "progress of history", yes.
>Are anarchists generally committed to social ownership of the means of production, or do they tend to favor small-scale production and some forms of private ownership? How would they address the claim that anarchism is just bourgeois individualism turned on its head?
Social ownership is good as long as it empowers each individual to govern themselves and directly manage the affairs of their life/labour, if it fails at that then it can be swiftly discarded. Anarchism is different from "bourgeois individualism" in that an anarchist wants to be that absolute authority over their own life, whereas liberals tend to go on about 'rights', 'laws', 'equality', 'private property', etc. Essentially liberalism only permits freedoms within the confines of what it deems acceptable, as does Christianity, monarchy, feudalism, among others.
>How do anarchists propose to organize and educate workers for class struggle while refusing participation in bourgeois political institutions? How would they avoid offering what critics call one‑sided, disconnected fixes, especially when global coordination seems necessary and anarchism’s individualist tendencies may undermine it?
I don't really care about organizing the working class, it should be obvious by now that socialism will never happen in your lifetime.
If anything, the best way to "organize" would be to build pockets of life outside of hierarchical society, and to slowly expand these more and more. "Build the new world within the shell of the old", as it were.
>How woulPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

>>2831873
>Civilized people labor to create consumer goods because the system gives them no other option if they want to survive. The only way people will continue to toil in the factories and warehouses in "a communist society" is if they are forced to by the system. No free hunter gatherer will voluntarily give up their freedom to stand at an assembly line pushing butbeautiful lady😍🥰s so other people can have Corn Flakes, weedkiller and AAA batteries. It's something that needs to be forced on humans by domestication and the joined threat of violence and starvation that props up the industrial system.
  • Burn the Bread Book



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Service sector accounts for more than half of all jobs in the world today according to statistics. Marx already knew that capitalism tends to displace the workforce away from industry and agriculture towards services, we can only expect this trend to increase. Today this is true even of a lot of global south countries.

I'm not an expert but I can see that service sector is a very heterogenous one, or we could say that it's even an umbrella term for very different jobs with very different social conditions, organizing potential class consciousness etc. Work in shitty uber-like apps, in restoration and hospitality, a lot of retail, and etc. are very hard to organize, health and education seem to be a suit generis sector as far as I know, blue collar work is practically labour aristocracy in a lot of cases or also hard to organize in the case of

I invite you all anons to discuss what do you think is the place of service sector in revolutionary praxis, taking into account the different conditions in the different countries (global north vs south, regions etc) if possible. In a lot of global north countries industrial work is practically labour aristocracy and in its way ti be extinct, and as far as I'm aware in a lot pf global south countries they also hold that status, for example, LATAM region. Should we focus on propaganda on industrial worker and organize the other sectors from an industrial proletariat base? Should we also try to organize the shitty service jobs creating now forms of syndicalism that can adapt to their unstable conditions? For example, in a lot of countries a there must be a certain (high) number of workers in order to be represented in a trade union. Is a more flexible and dynamic trade union structure for specific service employers belonging to this shitty unstable jobs possible? Is it even worth it?

I know the formulation of the problem could be more informed, but even though I'm not very knowledgeable, I wanted to make this thread in order for the more knowledgable anons to discuss this topic as I don't see it talked very much. I please ask you all to not enter the same old productive/unproductive work debate and stay on-topic.
30 posts and 2 image replies omitted.

>>2832170
Sorry pal next time I want to make a thread give me an instruction manual not to disturb your sensitive, hemorroidic asshole. I formulated all of that in a question, not as a statement, and I even admitted the poor formulation of the issue. I'm fully aware of my ignorance, which is the reason I made this thread, and I felt like I had to make it because nobody was talking about this shit even though most workers are in the service sector today. I just wanted to learn from the answers.

>>2832145
>>2832199
What do you think? Since industrial workers are, at least compared to lot of service workers, relatively better off, should we wait for the contradictions to bring back an incentive for the revolution in the industrial sector or should we work with what we have and shift the focus onto service, precarious labour with new strategies, or both?

>>2831306
>>2832489
It's not obvious to me that this is a problem from a Marxist standpoint. Communism = more factory labor? Like the point is sort of to overcome the necessity of labor. The contradiction is between the development of the forces of production (production becomes less dependent on human labor) with the relations of production (capitalism still relies on labor as a source of value).

<But to the degree that large industry develops, the creation of real wealth comes to depend less on labour time and on the amount of labour employed than on the power of the agencies set in motion during labour time, whose ‘powerful effectiveness’ is itself in turn out of all proportion to the direct labour time spent on their production, but depends rather on the general state of science and on the progress of technology, or the application of this science to production. (The development of this science, especially natural science, and all others with the latter, is itself in turn related to the development of material production.) Agriculture, e.g., becomes merely the application of the science of material metabolism, its regulation for the greatest advantage of the entire body of society. Real wealth manifests itself, rather – and large industry reveals this – in the monstrous disproportion between the labour time applied, and its product, as well as in the qualitative imbalance between labour, reduced to a pure abstraction, and the power of the production process it superintends. Labour no longer appears so much to be included within the production process; rather, the human being comes to relate more as watchman and regulator to the production process itself. (What holds for machinery holds likewise for the combination of human activities and the development of human intercourse.)


<No longer does the worker insert a modified natural thing [Naturgegenstand] as middle link between the object [Objekt] and himself; rather, he inserts the process of nature, transformed into an industrial process, as a means between himself and inorganic nature, mastering it. He steps to the side of the production process instead of being its chief actor. In this transformation, it is neither th
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I think it's interesting that while manufacturing and industry has for a long time been thoroughly bourgeois, retail and commerce was still a petty bourgeois endeavour. Back when there were already massive conglomerates in say the steel and coal or the automobile industry employing thousands of workers in single firms, most retail was still small shops, with barely any salaried workers, rather than large modern supermarkets and department stores with giant warehouses and logistics operations. This lack of socialisation placed a large part of the tertiary sector outside of the capitalist mode of production until much later. It's not very surprising then that this sector had less of a proletarian character than industry. However, times have changed and the small shops have been or are being replaced by massive stores like Walmart. Even the petty bourgeoisie that continues to exist are partly beholden to these giant firms by way of things like franchise agreements.

The same could probably be said for the food industry, with massive chains like McDonald's and Starbucks displacing smaller equivalents. Especially the fast food industry has an incredibly thorough (Fordist?) division of labour that simply did not exist in the past.

Still though, this increased scale in the service sector, except for probably in logistics, will never reach that of industry with individual sites as big as cities boasting thousands of workers.

I know! Pump nationalism, talk about opressed nations and inequal exchange. Then, talk about building a welfare state. Oh, and work with religious fanatic reactioaries. That would work!



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