/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>Is there a communism who puts central importance on the lumpenproletariat, and not the proletariat?
There were some New Left currents that did this on the basis of (mostly Black) prisoner's movements in the 60s and 70s. Iirc Huey Newton adopted some elements of this in his writing.

>>2899857
>Iirc Huey Newton adopted some elements of this in his writing.

Quick rundown?

>>2900934
It's essentially just a variation on the labour aristocracy theory, arguing that workers (or at least white ones) were too heavily absorbed into capitalist society and were unlikely to revolt. So they proposed that organized prisoners and lumpenproletariat more generally would take on a vanguard role that would eventually draw in the broader masses of workers.

>>2900936
Id love to hear about such movements because i have a somewhat similar belief, that is, that emphasis should be put on the most avant-garde, radical elements in society, the ones that, due to their conditions, are the most opressed in a first world country and would naturally have the most to gain from bringing about communism. An elite, not in a sense of class or education but in their severe resentment of a system that wronged them. IE ex cons,low class homosexuals, transgender individuals, and generally peolple who the system deems undesirable, mostly people who are extreme in their hatred of the status quo for being wronged by it. They would be naturally receptive to an ideology that promises the restructuring of society that would eliminate their subhuman status and should be pretty loyal due to not having a future under the status quo.
These types, should be chosen for their readiness to act violently if needed. With some education and training, they could prove very valuable and a shared struggle would mend their differences to an acceptable level. This nucleus could then, through a agressive campaign, slowly draw the general proleteriat into a broader movement.
I might be an absolute anarkkkiddie and a theorylet for even thinking this could work, but damn if it wouldn't be cool as hell.

>>2900936
the problem with that is the prisoners are literally slaves stuck in series of geographically isolated panopticons. no spartacus like uprising is possible when the slaves are in a jail. you would need a bunch of simultaneous successful prison breaks from max security facilities. statistically unlikely. also mixed in with the nonviolent workers who were imprisoned for no good reason are genuine opportunists, class traitors, psychopaths, etc. you are unlikely to develop a healthy and lasting political coalition out of that mixture.

it is a bit of a strange thread here. it's like asking vegans what they think of vegans who eat pork or perhaps jews what they think of jews who say they worship jesus.

hegelian marxist is definitionally a contradiction in terms. marxism flips the hegelian dialectic. so a hegelian marxist has flipped it back into hegelianism? why not just call it hegelianism?

like all leftypol threads, it is appropriate to take this one with a grain of salt. discussing historical materialism and dialectics with randos on social media is one thing, another thing entirely to do so with anonymous users on a thai thimble collecting bulletin board servce

>>2899129
Are there non-Hegelian Marxists?

>>2899914
althusser

>>2899834
Who mentioned memes? Education is much more widespread nowadays, partly because of the internet. No one has to read Hegel as a primary source in contemporary times unless his body of work is your main object of study; not even philosophy majors engage with more than a few chapters throughout the curriculum. You can get educated enough to read Das (and you should, if your main object of study is Marx) without reading Hegel through primary sources.

>>2899914
Marx.

How do people here feel about forgiveness?
Is it weak and submissive to turn the other cheek, or is it strong to be able to extinguish the desire for revenge? Jesus says to give a thief your own coat - evil is injustly rewarded by lack of immediate punishment. This is the ethos of slaves and cowards to all sensible persons, no? Forgiveness can come afterwards, but never straight away.

The theological rationale of forgiveness is in the universality of sin, which thus makes no man better than another. Thus, Jesus says to not execute the adulteress so that she may repent. This is expressed today in the methods of rehabilitation; the redemption of souls. In older Catholic executions, the souls of criminals would be forgiven before their mortal bodies were destroyed. The forgiveness of sin was administered spiritually, but not materially. Of course, this conflicts with the Judgement of God - indeed, souls are destroyed in the Lake of Fire by their sin (the idea of a punishing afterlife in Tartarus going back to at least Plato). Here, there is no forgiveness, but a payment of debts. So, even if man forgives, God may not, making man more of a merciful spirit than God. The promise of Hell for the wicked paired with the forgiveness of ignorance (e.g. "forgive them… for they know not what they do") is certainly paradoxical, if not contradictory. So, is forgiveness really true, if sin still remains? As we see with the thief on the cross, forgiveness is granted by permission of God, despite one's sins in life. This is the "death-bed conversion" so notorious of criminal repentance, like Jeffrey Dahmer. In any case, sin is not erased, but passed on down the line - and this is the issue. Where mere man is asked to forgive his rapist and murderer, what sense can be in this? Beyond all passion is still the light of reason. Why is my forgiveness of evil more primary than the evil act itself? I reject this. I need justice.

>you have beaten me, raped me, murdered me - and now I love you
This is the psychological sickness of forgiveness. It is more than simple servility; it is the creed of slavery by an attitude of inferiority.

>>2900895
I think it's desirable to have some kind of avenue to forgiveness. A summary of a book I one read in a Slate Star Codex post (no, really) got to me on this.

From memory the story is basically as follows: There are two twin brothers, an unpopular one and a popular one. The popular one shows up in town and says that he and the unpopular one had a fight, and he killed his brother in self defence. Everyone naturally understands that this is forgivable, except the priest who says it will only be forgiven if he reflects on it, undertakes penance, is truly sorry, and so on. The townspeople think the priest is being old fashioned and too harsh, after all it was a good man engaged in self defence!

Then it turns out that it was actually the unpopular brother who killed the popular brother in self defence and came back to the town, not the popular one. He lied about his identity. Now the population is outraged: this is unforgivable! he killed a good man!
But the priest says: nope, forgivable, provided he reflects on it, undertakes penance, is truly sorry, and so on. Justice isn't a popularity contest and god doesn't discriminate.

Anyway I've probably butchered the story but the point that sticks with me is that there's no similar formal avenue of forgiveness today. You can't go to a priest and go "tell me what to do to show everyone that I'm truly sorry and repentant" and then have the priest stick up for you. All social crimes are either totally forgivable, totally unforgivable, or in an unstable position where they can be ignored most of the time but hauled out to shut you up if need-be. If there was some kind of accepted avenue towards conditional forgiveness, things would probably be a lot better.

>>2900923
Well, we set "penalties" against criminals, which if it they are paid, we say that they are forgiven (e.g. A "purgatory"; of "purging" impurities by a trial). Forgiveness in this case is the paying of debt (hence we call crimes "debts to society"). No one denies that forgiveness is possible - in time, but when Jesus says to offer your thief your coat willingly, he is effectively saying that forgiveness is unconditional, through taking on the debt yourself. Jesus thus takes on everyone's sin, leaving each to be sinless (if they would repent). So, the Christian is supposed to allow evil to overcome them by faith, and this we call "martyrdom". For example, Anabaptists are pacifists, and so you can murder them and they cannot defend themselves. When I see forgiveness of this kind, I see a willingness to be conquered, which I regard as undignified. Even if you will let yourself be victimised, at least defend others. So, I do not think forgiveness is impossible, but all crimes must carry a penalty.

>>2900653
maybe it's more like this… hmm..

it literally has nothing to do with feudalism i dont even get the train of thought

>>2900683
"Serfdom was abolished!" I scream as I'm herded into Elon Musk's epic bacon sauce kingdom.

>>2900655
trvth nvke

>>2900346
Feudalism is the default stage of proprietarian human development (if there is property, there is feudalism (not a bordigafag, but this is the trvth)). When slavery fails (slavery is primitive capitalism), it reverts to feudalism, when capitalism fails it reverts to feudalism, when feudalism fails, it devolves into capitalism, when socialism fails, it devolves into capitalism, which upon failure reverts to feudalism. Feudalism existed even before antiquity. It just had a different name
>feudalism
<subjection
>fiefdom
<satrapy
>fee
<tribute
>Sovereign
<King, Despot, Satrap etc.
and so on.
Communism is esoteric feudalism because it concentrates everything into the hands of the sovereign (the politburo), it creates a relationship of loyalty between the citizens and the church (the party), you could not freely move in-out or inside AES countries permanently (tied to one's land), there was excessive social surplus generated for the use by the sovereign, there was heightened sense of community (ideological) and so on. Even the collective farm system was similar to feudalism where above the fee quota, you traded on actual free markets. Lastly socialism was brought down by the soviet merchant guild in exactly the same way that the medieval merchant guild brought down feudalism because they wanted unrestricted property claims. It did not fail organically like is said in the westoid academic media (bla bla people got tired and overthrew bla bla), the merchants corrupted the sovereign into destroying the order of things so they could become the new aristocracy (the oligarchy).

>>2900350
>former q-tard
Post too long. Click here to view the full text.

>>2891640
Interview he did here
https://terrabayt.com/dusunce/english/crisis-capital-and-hell-on-earth-an-interview-with-phil-neel/
>>2891661
Phil acutally gives a bit of Leninist critique in the next paragraph:
>That said, I’m not a communization theorist. I do not like the framework or the term. I do not think there is anything special about our era that makes us any more (or less) prone to building communism today than we were in the past, though perhaps the possibility becomes more clearly visible or more necessary. I certainly draw a lot of influence from theorists associated with the current, but that’s simply because they are good, interesting, and rigorous Marxist thinkers. As for myself, I consider myself an entirely orthodox communist. That includes both the Marxian aspect, as well as the sequence of practical lessons learned in the long history of struggle and elaborated in theories of revolutionary organization. In this respect, I think many within the communization current do not focus enough on the frictions that arise in the pragmatic process of building power in a hostile world, even if they do a great job of symptomatizing the limits faced by existing uprisings and relating them to large-scale, structural trends. In other words, while they’re very good Marxists, they’re often not very good Leninists.

>It is necessary to think quite hard about the likely sequence of social transformation, the forms of revolutionary organization that would be needed to channel that process, and the geopolitical, administrative, and economic demands placed on any revolutionary force that emerges and holds any territory. In this regard, we still do not have any better living examples than the saga of the Soviet Union, the protracted people’s war in China, and the struggle for survival by isolated revolutionary states like Cuba. These are also case studies in the extreme ways that revolutionary societies can degenerate, either into bizarre chimeras like North Korea or, more conventionally, by melting back into the liberal order, as in Russia anPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

>>2890768
When has a centralized form of organisation led to the propagation of communist measures? When has it led to communist measures at all? Your second point contradicts itself, also

Le ICP status?

>>2899827
From what I've heard from they're involved with the union movement and usually pull them towards "the communist programme," or at least towards their interpretation of it.

>>2891851
Currently reading through the crisis theory part of the interview, it's a very informative article. I might read "Hinterland" later on, when I have the chance.

>>2891545
Reich was a retard whose only real contribution was being the first to try doing marxism and psychoanalysis at the same time. Žižek solos.

>>2900832
see also
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swULKfLQ9t0&pp=ygUTczRhIGNoaW5hIG5iIHR1cm5lcg%3D%3D

and following episodes

>>2900832
>in violation of United Nations sanctions
Oh no, anyway

Hoxhaist hands typed this

>>2900832
hello mossad

>>2900841
in violation of international maritime law retard. not sanctions. you cant fish in territorial waters of other nations. Same way you cant appropriate natural resources that aren't part of your nation. nothing
prevents china fishing in its own waters

>>2900847
hello friend, please send us those Chinese cameras for our checkpoints. the palestinians are getting uppity

wow what a neat wordfilter

>>2900156
Nice LARP. Your beloved Turkey is an imperialist dog and coconspirator of Nafoid, very similar to your own country which is an American ally, basically a Muslim Israel.

I think the division is more down to the “old powers” looking out for number one.
The UK, France and Germany aren’t going to agree amongst them who’s elected to be the battleground for a war (let’s face it, it’d be Germany again) so expanding to conquer former Soviet and Warsaw Pact nations is, on the one hand more likely to spark war, but on the other has the irresistible benefit that war will be fought on someone else’s territory. Their former adversaries’ in fact.

It’s genius, if it weren’t for the fact WW3 is exceedingly unlikely to remain conventional. So in practice they’ve just brought us closer to nuclear war than at any point in the Cold War because potentially a Russia-NATO war stops with negotiations with Ukraine getting rekt rather than Germany.

Germanics never planned to defend the Slavs if Russia invades. It was fake from the beginning.

>Class B
also known as Butthurt Belt

>>2900786
Rosa didn't support the revolution until you started massacring workers, subhuman animal lapdog.

>>2900800
You seem to be under the misapprehension that 107 year old Germans post on leftypol.org

>>2900800
<you
He knows. Shut it down.

Anyone who can’t see how Palestine is the primary contradiction is a flaming retard. Who gives a shit about beautiful lady😍🥰s when Zionism is colonizing the entire world?

Idpol is cancer.

He should have stayed in the race

When did this happen? Full story?

>>2900549
Interesting how they never give specific examples of what he "lied" about.

>>2899842
Shut up it was super obvious

>>2900220
Kill yourself

>>2900220
explain it anyway

for me it was the opposite, violence - real violence - was normalized for me as a kid and it wasn't until well into adulthood that i learned that it was not a normal thing for most of society. i get the feeling that a lot of the people who most vocally endorse violence are the people who have never really been exposed to it, all they've ever seen is videogame or movie violence or shock content on the internet, not actual traumatizing real life violence that screws you up in the head forever when you see it.