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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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I just finished reading this, honestly I think he makes a few good points regarding the abilities of individuals to self-organize, but I don't think his criticism of economic planning is honest, I don't have much knowledge on how planning operated in the USSR but I am pretty sure there was room for innovative individuals to start a new business/industry using their knowledge, or for individuals to rise in the social hierarchy in a socialist system through hard work.
Also, him likening socialism and communism to nazism is completely retarded, he even contradicts himself in the book on the subject.

What are you thoughts on this book? What are some criticism you have of it? Is planning really as rigid as Hayek pertains it to be?
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Also '68 should always be cited as a good historical example of what it takes to actually achieve wage increases under capitalist societies. Only by literally scaring the shit out of the capitalists and making them think that the country is going to Bolshevism will Porky start handing out the goods.


He predicted that in the immediate aftermath of WW2 that the trend would be towards more state control and oversight and he was right initially. Unfortunately he died really quickly after WW2 something like 1 or 2 years right after so his legacy and work were re-interpreted by literal revisionists to be far less radical.
His main proposals at Bretton Woods would have also benefited the Soviet Union (the USSR's economists wanted to join up) but the main American negotiator for Bretton Woods, Harry White, in addition to being a part-time Soviet spy (lol) was (bizarrely) stupidly patriotic and pro-America at the same time, so he ended up literally enshrining a financial/monetary order that would be based on America's currency and enable them to play the role of financial hegemon, which laid the groundwork for many of the underlying problems in today's neoliberal era.
Tbh I think the best opportunity for the establishment of a Keynesian world order phasing into an eventual socialist one would be for America to lose a war against China, enabling China as undisputed superpower to reconfigure and restructure the world's monetary/financial order at their whim much like how America did post-WW2, but this time in a fairer way in order to buy time for other countries to transition towards heavier state intervention and for workers to gain strength before a push towards socialism. A previous Chinese central banker has already noted that Keynes's proposals would be a good stepping stone.


The pdf is here in case anyone is interested


>write "The Road to Serfdom"
>the porkies implementing your theories are trying to make proles into serfs
Yeah this guy was a fucking idiot


none of this disproves individuality

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When you think about it, unions are like cults.
>they have existed for a long time, so long that their original purpose has been forgotten but more often subverted so that leaders of the cult could gain more power
>they have established rules of behaviour, protocols, and elaborate rituals
>to be accepted into one you have to be screened and fulfill some prerequisites
>the big one: you pay money to the union in form of dues, you often also have to volounteer your time for free in service of the union's needs
>union members will try to recruit as many people as possible into a union
>if a proselytiser of the union is particularly good and recruits many members they attain the rank of "organiser", which gives them privileges and power within the union structure
>strict, enforced hierarchy: acolytes must obey organisers
>heavy use of symbols, idols and religious-like imagery
>members of a union are expected to put themselves in danger and are told to sacrifice themselves for the union's goals
>threaten those with whom they disagree with violence
>often clash with not only police, but with civilians and other workers
>the infidels in the union cult mythos are called "scabs" and if you're a union member you are encouraged to use violence against "scabs"
union horror stories thread(Stay banned lmao)
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When you think about it, religions are like cults.


when you think about it, any gathering of people is a cult.


based. why the ban?(samefag)


he said that unions are cults
of which weren't


that deserves a 14 week ban?


So we know bourgeois elections wont work. So we gather together leftists of all type with altruistic worldviews. Each of us learns a specific, practical service, such as doctors, engineers, nurse, teacher, nutritionists, etc. and we give these services to the people cheap. every service we give is cooperatively owned and worker controlled.
We can get money from crowd funding and donations. The whole time we're working with unions, protests, and generally educating people to raise class consciousness. Basically we create a utopian socialist community within capitalist society, and undercut the capitalist competition.


blanquism/owenism 👎


>gather together leftists of all type with altruistic worldviews
Immediate problem here. I only relate to STEMfag cybernetician types of leftists, and not at all with utopian, philosophically idealist, STEMlet, smelly hippy leftists, who don't actually know what the fuck they want.

Opposition to capitalism alone actually isn't enough to unite everyone.

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It's a story you've heard a thousand times. Suppose a normal average Joe, a middle-class American maybe confronts a socialist.

<Do you know what ideology you propose? Its killed billions! Look at this article from the Washington Post, that's a certainly credible news site.

You use everything you can to debunk that. You even use that one argument about capitalism killing more than communism in a lifetime. Then the average Joe replies back

<The numbers were probably falsified. Are you telling me the Holodomor isn't real? That Mao didn't genocide millions of innocent people? Communists killed more than Hitler tenfold!

You talk about the Ukrainian famine, the Chinese revolution, you even use data from certified academic historians. But then..

<I don't believe your sources. They're probably propaganda anyways. Did you know that communists suppress free speech and lies about its data and statistics?

And yet again, you try to debunk this, but do you see the pattern? Reaction after reaction, claim after claim, lies after lies. It's virtually endless, especially if the reactionary has believed in his heart that communism is an evil ideology, a true evil, that starves and destroys nations.

Now the question is– what can we do about these kinds of circumstances? It happens all the time on the Internet and even in real life. The socialists are ALWAYS the one on the defense, never on the offense, and even when they do go on the offense; it's called "whataboutism." Do we just stop arguing on the basis that they're in bad faith? But won't that be bad in certain situations, like when there's an audience? When do we decide to stop or pursue? Do we just accept that material conditions will change a person's mind more than rational debate?
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Kids this is your brain on anarchism.


As other anons have pointed out, only the abusive chain's of capital cab awaken a individual. I in the end know and realize that odds are the propaganda and brainwashing will be to strong. The reactionary anticommunist will need to go through there fascist dreams just to see the horror of the nightmare they Invision. As I always tell anons its not socialism or barbarism is barbarism then socialism. They will have to learn the hard way and to be honest as bad as it is I can't wait!


>Do you know what ideology you propose? Its killed billions!
>The numbers were probably falsified. Are you telling me the Holodomor isn't real? That Mao didn't genocide millions of innocent people? Communists killed more than Hitler tenfold!
True, albeit not genocide or intentional.
>I don't believe your sources. They're probably propaganda anyways. Did you know that communists suppress free speech and lies about its data and statistics?
Absolutely fucking true.

Maybe try not to associate with failed totalitarian states (that were supposed to wither away bro!) and ideologies and shill for something better? I'm not saying "don't be leftist lol", but shill for a better form of leftism that actually works, and that's actually pragmatic (no communist entity has ever existed) and not ideal.
You can swap "porky" for "jew" and the message will still be the same.
Hell, China, one of the last major socialist countries, literally went fascist economically a few decades ago (mixed economy where capital still exists but subservient to state interests) and ideologically (blind chauvinism, statism, revolutionary new society molded from older roots, ethnic nationalism, etc) a few years ago. Socialism by 2050 right bros? Agh fuck, I broke me' limb, let me go to the hos- NEVER MIND LOL I NEED TO PAY TO GET TREATED


It’s not
>absolutely fucking true
It’s not
>Maybe try not to associate with failed totalitarian states (that were supposed to wither away bro!) and ideologies and shill for something better? I'm not saying "don't be leftist lol", but shill for a better form of leftism that actually works, and that's actually pragmatic (no communist entity has ever existed) and not ideal.
I don’t think anybody wants to recreate the USSR 1 to 1
>You can swap "porky" for "jew" and the message will still be the same
Being a capitalist is a material relation not an identity this makes no sense
>Hell, China, one of the last major socialist countries, literally went fascist economically a few decades ago (mixed economy where capital still exists but subservient to state interests) and ideologically (blind chauvinism, statism, revolutionary new society molded from older roots, ethnic nationalism, etc) a few years ago. Socialism by 2050 right bros? Agh fuck, I broke me' limb, let me go to the hos- NEVER MIND LOL I NEED TO PAY TO GET TREATED
Completely retarded the NEP didn’t make the Soviet Union facist.



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Is mind control real or even possible? What about hypnosis? Are these types of things being used by intelligence agencies for covert ops? If it is not real what is the benefits of encouraging it in popular culture? Why is hypnotherapy covered by health insurance if it is not real?

The first reports of the ability to control the human mind were reported in the late 1940s during the outset of the Korean War. Captured American Officers when learning the truth about communism told their Korean captors the truth about their use of biological weapons.

After WWII the Americans had pardoned and acquired many Nazi and Japanese scientists for their uses in the war against Communism. Japanese scientists from Unit 731 were allowed to continue their work on biological agents that were then deployed in Korea.

The US response was to denounce them and claim they were brainwashed by secret communist technology. This is obviously ridiculous and mind control is fake.

However, this allowed the military to secure funding for research projects into mind control. One particular Nazi scientist named Kurt Plötner had previously done expirements on captured airmen at Dachau concentration camp involving torture and high doses of the psychedelic compound mescaline.

Plötner's work in the concentration camps came to the attention of Boris Pash, an American intelligence officer who would go on to work in the CIA at the time of Operation BLUEBIRD in the late 1940s, and the United States Navy's intelligence officers recruited him in 1945, permitting him to continue his interrogation research.

Project Bluebird was launched on April 5th 1950
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If mind control and brainwashing aren't real, how can religion and BDSM be real?


To a degree. It's not like you can totally reformat a person's mental hard-drive and turn them into your mind thrall. However, it is possible to manipulate the degree to which someone is suggestible and then imprint certain commands while they are in that vulnerable state . All you need to do is disrupt the normal executive functioning of the prefrontal lobes.

The simplest way to do this is to deprive someone of sleep. You can also give them Datura (or concentrations of its psychoactive ingredient , scopolamine )or other dissociative or deliriants to induce heightened suggestibility and lack of self-control. Essentially what you want to do is dissolve the sense that there is a boundary between themselves and their environment so that they believe what they are being told is their own voice coming from their own volition. Hypnosis works similar.

However this influence will last only as long as the subject is under the effects fo sleep deprivation etc. It will not create a lasting susceptibility to control.

Changing someone's beliefs is another story. Brainwashing is more complicated. You do want to break down their will to believe in the contrary and incentivize them to believe what you want. But it requires extensive control of the subject's information environment and a thorough regime of reinforcement conditioning and rhetorical engagement. When someone does not want to believe something or believes the contrary with conviction it can take a tremendous amount to break them an TRULY get them to change their mind. They must be readjusted psychologically. You may break their will and get them to confess or repent, but on a cognitive level it is quite hard to coerce someone into believing that the sky is green.


Isn't that just NLP? I thought that was deboonked.


I err on the side of caution and assume MKULTRA worked. Always assume the worst of the enemy's tactics.


>MKUltra - exists
<It's you commies who brainwash people, Orwell was 1984% right about you!!1

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I feel a little dumb for asking this, but what is the basic socialist/materialist read for why the liberal powers allied with the Soviets against fascism in WW2? I witnessed an exchange where a liberal responded to the "scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds" argument (in the context of US Cold War policy) by arguing that liberalism has no particular affinity for fascism, and that America's support for fascists after 1945 was no more probative than its support for socialists during the war – both being mere questions of situational realpolitik. I'm sympathetic to the view that fascism is the last resort of capital under threat, but how do I square this with how WW2 played out?
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not really, it's a grab bag of random stuff terminating with a reference to the falklands war in the hopes of annoying a British person. (the closest incident in the Falklands is a 1960s-70s nuclear powered submarine, not a destroyer, sinking a WW2 destroyer. but the "WW2 boats" is less a reference to the Belgrano and more a prompt to imagination.)


pretty sure anon was satire but don't coddle these idiots fantasies anon


>Because the first priority of the Jews in charge of both the USSR and the liberal allies was to ensure the dominance of their ethnoreligious group
funny thing how you faggots always completely avoid the fact that the number of jews in the high party and government positions decreased with time.

Literally, which jews in the 1940 party leadership you can name except Kaganovich and Mekhlis?

Even the nazis admitted that jew nearly disseapeared from the soviet leadership.

Here is what Volkischer Beobchter wrote after the Second Mosocow Trial:

>If Stalin is right, the Russian Revolution was the work of a gang of abominable criminals including only two honest men, Lenin and Stalin. Yet for years these two have governed Russia in collaboration with this scum.

>More interesting than this, however, is the number of Jews among recent victims; in fact the original Jewish gang has been largely exterminated and substituted by Caucasians

So, maybe, someday you will realise that you are retard.
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Their declaration of war was largely symbolic, but they were conscious of the fact that to maintain face and credibility in the eyes of would be allies, they had to declare war. Their plans were working up until the non-aggression pact between Germany and the USSR was signed, that plan being provoking war between the two early on. It was a slap in the face to the Munich plotters who hadn't thought such a thing could happen. It scuppered their plans and forced the British and French imperialists to recalculate. In such a situation they had to declare war. Remember the British and French imperialists still had a rivalry with Germany which would've erupted eventually.

Of course the Soviets weren't stupid, they knew Hitler intended to wage war on the USSR and communism in general. But it brought the necessary time to strengthen the Red Army, deal with the white Finns and move industries east.


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Romania also had a coup d'etat against Antonescu in 1944 and joined the anti hitlerite coalition. They army took part in liberation of Czechoslovakia which is kinda forgotten thing nowadays.

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On September 23, 2021, an Argentine man created a thread on this website (4chan) threatening to carry out a massacre in his country, Argentina. A few days later, a news article reported that the FBI issued a report on the alleged author of that thread posted on 4chan and that after the investigation by federal detectives on different social networks they managed to locate the author of the crime.
With these results, the Argentine authorities proceeded to arrest the author of that thread posted on 4chan

The thread of the massacre: https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/340500985/

The news about his arrest (in Spanish): https://diariohoy.net/trama-urbana/amenazo-en-redes-sociales-con-hacer-un-atentado-y-fue-detetado-178307?fbclid=IwAR01_SIjz7j9I3YBaVR1JILnf2DaXVYngUkMml1MOGiF2DaXVYngUkMml1MOGiQ

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>this is what the average helicopter poster looks like
kek what a bitch


Damn that's a sick fucking cannon on that BTR.
Not a tank, though. It's an APC, so it's two steps from a tank.
Damn haha I sure hope you don't use that on any police or anything, boy howdy that'd be horrible, I hope they stop you, you nutcase :^)


you don't make any sense


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the only reason 4/pol/ doesn't get the 8chan treatment is because it is heavily cultivated by the fed to produce an enemy for them to manufacture consent with. morons like this prove just how short of a leash they get, and thus how much of a fucking footnote of history they will be, even as they hype up their fucking meme magic.


>Not a tank, though. It's an APC, so it's two steps from a tank.

If you really want to be a pedant, it's not an APC, it's an Infantry Fighting Vehicle.

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What sort of person still signs up to be an FBI/CIA/NSA agent in 2021, after every thing they've done? Are they just ignorant of history? are they some sort of weird centrist politically or just apolitical? are they mormon?

Who are they and what is their ideology/mentality?


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FBI are cops with graduate degrees. They have criminal justice degrees and go for a career in federal law enforcement. There's some YDSA chapter right now somewhere in the U.S. on a college campus that has been "infiltrated" by another student who's studying to get his masters in criminal justice and he's writing a report about them for his internship program.

Edward Snowden worked for an NSA contractor, right? You're probably going to meet a lot of people like him. Nerds and engineers. Hang out in a bar in Washington D.C. and you'll meet all kinds of people who work for the U.S. government in various capacities. "Oh this is my friend who works for the State Department" and she's a 24-year-old who just graduated college and got a job.

They're normal people, just like you and me.


i guess the bigger question is why do they knowingly work for an evil org. And i know there's no ethical job under capitalism but even bigcorp,inc. is less evil than the fucking FBI


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They literally have a special psychological profile that leans towards authoritarianism and subservience to authority. The last thing they want is someone who questions their orders.

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anything past that isnt even an improvement, and I can say that from experience being an albertan that makes me technically a citizen of the wealthiest state/province in north america and hence well the americas in general. In real life any economy that has a per capita gdp past 15k isnt really adding anything that makes the lives of civilians better beyond healthcare, what actually ends up happening is that half the "economy" is just fed money randomly printed and then forced into being spent either by the government on random apartments, suburbs and offices no one needs to make the moneys worth legitimate while jacking up real estate prices or is literally being funnelled into corporate bailouts and corporate welfare in general to make the illusion of success look real to investors in the hopes of attracting actually useful capital or cheap labour in the form of immigrants while more and more sectors of the economy deindustrialize as capitalist seek outsourcing labour civilians need to feed themselves consistently and you end up with a situation where the supposedly wealthiest region in the americas has an 8th of its citizens homeless in its capital. Its fucking shit and Im worried about the direction other neoliberal countries are going in as the only people I can see that will see a noticable spike in living conditions are subsaharan africans and south east asians while the rest of the planet is stuck in economic limbo dependent on extracting increasingly worthless printed capital from each other in the pursuit of satisfying unrealistic keynesian demands for growth. oh dear
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pretty much this >>540480 and also winnipeg is one of the only predominantly indigenous canadian provinces meaning its also has alot of cultural celebrations and communities around


Those are indigenous people? they look asian


yeah most indigenous peoples do look asian due to prehistoric migration and little contact with other races can do that


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>they look asian


this is why if there is a chinese east asian co prospeirty sphere.
I advocate parts of the western us and canada to join it
so to unite all the east asian peoples :)

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leftypol whats your opinion on the east asian state led miracles in sk japan taiwan and china.

And what are the numerous similarities and differences between these states

and do these states have a general developmental model that can apply for other countries or is it purely a east asia thing

besides that what is the general consensus on Shimomuran economics. ive heard people use it to credit the east asian states miracles in general

like i heard china uses shimomuran economics
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North korea has been sanctioned so many fucking times that the economy might aswell just be whatever they can get off china and fulfilling 5 year plans when kim actually gives a shit about the country instead of larping as a celebrity, dont forget the korean wars would happen just as the ussr was barely integrated into the cold war along with the fact that the north korean population faced an ageing crisis(this happened in pretty much all of eastern europe aswell) due to premature migration to cities along with a population shortage due to the fact that the korean war killed over a fifth of the north korean population. Thats shits not easy to recover from but oh well at least recovery is forming as the north korean economy is rising in development each day under the Juche and its unlikely there situation will stay as bad as it is especially with the fact that the USA has sanctioned china and declared it a public enemy meaning china has no more incentives to cut off trade with NK under the threat of trade barriers


Confucianism and Maoism. If you look at the example of India, India's literacy rate is still between 77 and 90%, after more than 70 years of independence.

What Confucianism has is that it's intrinsically believing in the potential of every individual to achieve sagehood, and thus places a prioritization on the education level of each individual. That means human capital development, which means a literate and educated workforce that can properly exploit the capital invested in the country. Of course, I'm not supporting Confucianism as a modern political ideology, since Confucianism is intrinsically elitist and the notion of Confucian merit is often an excuse for social elites to exploit others.

Maoism goes further in that even if you are not a sage, or not going to be a sage, you are valuable simply by the virtue of being Proletarian or Peasantry. Maoism set the stage for Deng by drastically improving education levels, as in classic right-wing Confucian dictatorships or soft-dictatorships, but also by dramatically improving the healthcare and nutrition levels of the proletariat and peasantry. That resulted in a well-educated and healthy workforce that was suited to the demands of industrialization; without Mao's reforms, Deng's reforms would have sputtered as badly as Indian reforms.

Meanwhile, if you look at classic right-wing dictatorships, they may try a version of state capitalism, but they eventually hit TFP limits as they have a proletariat that's dumb, violent, and prone to conflict.

I suppose overall, this is another example of capitalism being dumb. That capitalism got so far is simply because succdems kept on addressing the flaws with capitalism to keep it alive, and unfortunately for right-wing state capitalist dictatorships, all the succdems are in jail, exiled, or dead.


It's impressive what happened with the DPRK, you would think that the sanction would completely destroy the country, yet they're advancing at a good pace, NK is certainly better today than 20 years ago, and the Korean workers party and the Juche idea are more stable than ever.

It's proof that a country can certainly live without western markets, it won't be a comfy life full of IPhones, PS5's and other retarded shit, but it's decent life nonetheless.


IIRC up to the 1980s, the DPRK was competitive in terms of GDP per capita with the ROK. I think for the absolute beginnings of development from a feudal model, classical socialism is far superior to capitalism as a developmental model.


The problem is tho the reason why sk fell behind in the early years was because of the heavily corrupt and incompetent syngman rhee regime. when someone actually competent and arguably non corrupt park took over the state rapidly developed and started reaching nk levels by late 1970s.
aka its kinda complicated and its not as simple as classical socialiam being far superior to capitalism as a developmental model when turning from feudal to moderately developed

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