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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Most socialists I see praise the Labor Theory of Value, but I wanted to see what people on this site think of the subjective theory of value. Which states that value is inherently subjective, which supposedly solves the water-diamond paradox suggested by one of the LTV's creator, Adam Smith. So I wanted to see any responses to this theory.
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>It's from me
You're skilled in writing besides being evidently read on a variety of subjects, I thought this was from a book or something but couldn't find it online. This is a sincere compliment. Thank you for posting.
OK so read Bukharin. Got it.
Is marginalism what is taught as the main form of economics in the US? I've heard econ students be smug about their economics profession, saying they have math and empirical evidence or whatever. Is this the school they allude to?
I'm increasingly interested in learning more about marginalism. There's just so much I want to learn but I struggle to read even shorter stuff, it's excruciatingly frustrating!


I don't agree. things have objective value, whether or not we agree with it.


In a way but it's not the version of marginalism given for public consumption. The actual study of economics has more to do with what was game theory or information theory and sociology, and what happens with the money is just a story told so that investors believe they're actually chasing after meaningful value tokens. It was pretty clear from the institutionalists that the monetary system was only preserved to placate the lower orders of the bourgeois and all those people invested in it, and what money and property the people did possess would be sucked up into a cartel. Economics today is more concerned with the managerial task and how to manipulate agents into doing your bidding, then it is concerned with trying to pin down the fundamentals of "value". The finance stuff is not operating on any special principle or secret knowledge, aside from some very creative scams and ways to conjure lots of fictitious "wealth" like derivatives. None of that is backed by any economic thought, but is largely a shell game and a way finance can leverage its assets to say everything is working, and make sure the right people are paid off and the wheels remain greased. One thing that is missing from Marx, conspicuously so, is the role of the banks, which are not specifically capitalist institutions or motivated by anything that motivates a capitalist firms. Banks are motivated by the things motivating them since ancient times - keeping their treasury solvent and being in the seat to make the most of their wealth pile, and so their behavior is more like that of a state from the outset than a productive firm. This makes a lot of sense if you think about all the incentives someone would have if they're rich enough to operate a successful bank, and you can't say you're really rich unless you have your own bank and can hand out credit. That analysis is not relevant to what Marx is writing in Capital, but you're not going to find the inner workings of finance in any educational course. You can find exposes of what goes on up there, because a whole lot of people are rightly paranoid about the bank and what schemes they're up to next. Increasingly, banks have mechanisms that allow an intervention into the economy that wasn't possible before the 20th century. Part of doing this involved eliminating exchange in gold, which money originally pointed to - you used to be abPost too long. Click here to view the full text.


Bear in mind I'm not part of the university system at all, so I don't know what's what as far as where you would go to school to get the really good stuff. What I can tell is that the ruling class doesn't really care about economic thought, and what economic thought exists is always concerned with a technocratic view. So far as they care about the money, they imagine separating the wage fund from capital proper, so the petty investors can be given monopoly money and the workers can be given Amazon chits. Game theory implies rational actors seeking something like general utility, but qualifies that in a way that makes more sense than the marginal approach. It comes about in part by people who wanted to elaborate on economic decision making, relating it to strategic games that were common during the war period, and that thinking came to dominate the top-level economic planning - the technocratic state was created to fight (badly) general wars and impose social engineering. You can get the basics of Marginal Utility from the neoclassicals. Jevons is fairly useful as a bridge from classical polecon to the neoclassical school, because you can see why the switch was made most clearly there - he's firmly in the imperial camp and doesn't make any bones about wanting to crush the workers and the failed capitalists, while the Austrians just muddle around and fail to get basic shit about Adam Smith let alone the Marxist system they want to critique so badly and fail to score any "own" against. None of that resembles anything that is taught today though. As far as I can tell, today's economists are taught to be policy wonks and say the magic words to keep the plebs distracted, because the system threw over most of the people a long time ago.

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 No.1355509[Reply][Last 50 Posts]

>A large number of Taleban fighters have moved to Afghanistan’s cities since the movement’s capture of power, many of them seeing life in the city for the first time in their lifetime.
>Their circumstances have changed entirely since the Taleban’s victory.
>For many, born into rural families and with their adult lives spent primarily on the battlefield, it was the first time they had come to the capital. They had not even been born or were still children when the Taleban’s first emirate fell.
>Even their seniors, who had experienced life in a major city like Kabul, would find the Afghan capital of 2021 a very different place to when the Taleban had last ruled there – the ruins left by the civil war had long ago been re-built, the city itself had become vastly bigger and the population increased manifold.
<How have they found the actual Kabul and its people, and what do they think about having to earn a living for the first time, keep office hours and live in a city full of traffic and millions of other inhabitants?

Some funny excerpts
>What I don’t like about Kabul is its ever-increasing traffic holdups. Last year, it was tolerable but in the last few months, it’s become more and more congested. People complain that the Taleban brought poverty, but, looking at this traffic and the large number of people in the bazaars and restaurants, I wonder where that poverty is.

>And the savageness of people against each other, in particular against women – dozens of women approach the hawza on a daily basis and register their complaints. They’re victims, subject to different forms of brutality. The head of the hawza and all other mujahedin pay special attention to solving their problems. During the first days when women approached us, many mujahedin, including myself, were hiding from them because never in our whole lives have we talked to strange women. In the days that followed, the head of the hawza instructed us that sharia does allow us to talk to them because we are now the authorities and the only people that can solve their problems.

>After the fatha, many of our friends abandoned the cause of jihad. Many others betrayed the blood of the martyrs on
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>I sometimes miss the jihad life for all the good things it had. Similarly, in the beginning, I yearned for the village, but I’ve now become accustomed to my new circumstances



They built up the productive forces and turned Afghanistan from a feudal to a capitalist state where the PDPA failed…
Blursed timeline.




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It is time to wage a Jihad on the bourgeois


I was having an argument with someone on 4chins and this guy said you guys support russia and that that is why russia supporters are le bad. Do you guys really support them? If so, I guess you dudes werent too bad after all. Sure you're still filthy commies and my views of monarchy are incompatible with your views. But atleast you're against western oligarchs ruling the world which is a start.

Unless the guy was bullshitting, in which case nevermind and ban me asap.(there is a whole ass thread for this)
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Imagine wanting to serve a king. Bro, just worship your boss. Work for amazon or Tesla and you basically work for royalty.


Some of us critically support Russia keeping NATO off its doorstep to avoid heightened nuclear tensions, yes. That said, the mod is right. There is a thread for this.


Supporting monarchism without being a royal is the final form cuckoldry.


Zes. I zupport Ruzzia againzt Banderiztan.



Kim Jong-un says hello fellow monarchist lol jk guillotine time


Hello, I'm here because I want ot listen to your political ideas.
I'm a conservative but I do not have ill intent, I genuinely have a desire to listen to your political position.
Why no lurk? Because linking well known books on the topic it's ok, but I want to know what real living people think and have maybe a topic dedicated to the dialogue between the "2" political sides.
I promises that I won't be rude or trying to debunk your opinion, I really don't care to change any of your ideas. Also, sa vans ca dir I'm not a some type of gowie, real ordinary person here.

So just to spark the discussion, I ask why do you think the ultimate goal is the equality?
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>Spanish Robin Hood after literally organizing a series of supermarket shoplifting and gave it to the poor
This makes bong Leninhat seethe lol


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>implying the goal is le equality
it isn't. Marx deboonks equality in Critique of the Gotha Programme


>I ask why do you think the ultimate goal is the equality?
Its not.

The goal (not ultimate, marxism doesnt really describe or prescribe a true end of history) is the abolishment of the bourgoiesie and the collective ownership of the means of production.


>ownership is a relation of production and is itself a social relation, its the defining feature between bourgeois and worker. The ultimate goal is abolition of property
Ownership is not "the" defining feature of capitalism though, the issue with this kind of framing is that it implies that "proletarian" run capitalist corporations are somehow a consiquential goal, and not a perpetuation and inevitable reproduction of capitalist relations in it's totality.


Agree with this anon.
A good thing to remember is that capitalism is the rule of capital, not the rule of capitalists. The capitalists are the operators at the top, but capitalism is not defined by there being hierarchy, but by the way the economy is run.


What are /leftypol/ thoughts on analytical marxism?

If you're familiar with the writings of G.A. Cohen, John Roemer, and other similar authors, what are your opinions on them?

I know they're controversial because they throw out basic concepts from Marx - like they think the labor theory of value is unnecessary. But I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with critically examining his ideas and, if necessary, being prepared to throw them away. He lived in a different time where mathematics, economics and philosophy just hadn't developed to the point where they have today - I think it's obvious that Capital would be substantially different if it were written after the marginal revolution, like it or not.
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This is what it looks when somebody who has no idea what tf he is talking about writes a huge wall of text. Like wtf


>long anti-communist screed
99% sure that's Eugene


Yeah. I'm surprised somebody can write so much without actually saying anything.


>What the fuck? I'm saying lots of content. What have you contributed except the same tired navel-gazing, so you can keep people chasing after phantoms?
What phantoms? Wtf are you even talking about?
>You have idiots with the whole turbo "i'm totes materialist" line doing their usual mystification, shitting up a potentially worthwhile thread yet again with their infantile shit.
What? Who? Can you hear yourself?


I find it hard to disagree with you. I don't understand the apparent disconnect with this praise of Marx as setting up an ontology/epistemology that dethrones God, or put another way, ideology, while also describing the system of political econ at play in the mid 1800s, with the disparagement of Marx made in posts above.

You say Marx is basically doing a reduction ad absurdum, but you're also showing how Marx effectively described polecon in a way that had never been done before to that degree. It feels like a disconnect, maybe I misunderstood.

As with making polecon a "science", yes, he was after all in the peak of modernity and influenced by the marvel of science, but his ideas, together with Hegel's (and Feuerbach) ultimately undermine the practice of science as some dogmatic sword, and places it squarely in the social domain. Something that had never been done before, which positivists and mainstream science still have to cope with to this day and basically deny. Further, polecon DID become a science, now part of so called "soft sciences".

I'm confused by your position, is what I'm saying.

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When socialism hit its peak somewhere around the Cold War, all socialist states where nation-states. I guess maybe you could argue two, China and the USSR, could be considered civilization states, since the PRC was a continuum of uninterrupted Chinese civilization which had existed for thousands of years, same with the USSR as an overarching Russian or Russophone civilization that was hundreds of years old. But overall, the rest were nation-states.

Could communism, bring back the civilization state? Leaving behind the nation-state as a vestige of capitalism?
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You could actually make a case for the Inca Empire being socialist, unlike everything he listed.



Korea is like the definition of a nation state. One ethnic group, one language, one identity.


Hey so like how Stalin defined nation, is there a Marxist definition of civilization? Google defines it as
>the society, culture, and way of life of a particular area
Would you agree with that definition?


>be foreign power
>invade china and win militarily
>now have to sinicize to keep the regime running
>congrats, now you're part of the chinese civilization
Happened to Xiongnu, Di, Xianbei, Mongols, Jurchens, AND Japanese offsprings in Manchuria. Fun fact: there are more Mongols in China than there are Mongolians.

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Sri Lanka Government Develops Cold Feet, Calls Off Local Elections
The Sri Lanka Podujana Peramuna (SLPP)-backed government, associated with the worst economic crisis Sri Lanka has ever faced, is expected to face a crushing defeat at the local council election. Therefore, the government has been attempting to postpone the election, through several constitutional and unconstitutional methods, until they receive the IMF bailout package of $2.9 billion. The government believes that this funding, along with the expected bridging finance could be used to stabilize the economy and that an election should be held at a more favorable time.

CPI(M)’s Kerala Yatra to ‘Expose Threats’ of BJP Regime
The yatra, led by CPI(M) state secretary MV Govindan and inaugurated by chief minister and Politburo member Pinarayi Vijayan at Kumbla, Kasargod district, on Monday, also aims to help the LDF improve its tally in the 2024 Lok Sabha election. The yatra will end in Thiruvananthapuram on March 18 after covering all the 140 Assembly constituencies.

Colombia: Vehicle Of A Commons Party Member Is Attacked In Tame
Men on motorcycles fired ten times at the armored car. Some shots hit one wheel and others the back of the vehicle, reaching the armor. "Fortunately, I was not in the vehicle but at my home," Torres pointed out, explaining that his drivers were coming to his house to pick him up.

Mexico president flags water-scarcity of northern state eyed for Tesla plant
Lopez Obrador said he would emphasize to Tesla the Post too long. Click here to view the full text.
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US Supreme Court will not hear challenge to Arkansas anti-BDS law
Arkansas passed a law in 2017 that mandated all public agencies not to do business with contractors - in contracts worth at least $1,000 - unless they affirm that they will not boycott Israel. The Arkansas Times, a small newspaper, challenged the legislation in 2018 when a state college refused to continue paying for advertisements on the paper until it signed the anti-boycott pledge. The Arkansas law states that contractors with the state must reduce their fees by 20 percent if they don't sign the pledge.

'Too Many Holes': Rail Workers Say Buttigieg Plan of Action Is Not Enough
"Profit and expediency must never outweigh the safety of the American people," Buttigieg—who has yet to exercise his authority to restore previously gutted rules and was mulling an industry-backed proposal to further weaken federal oversight of train braking systems as recently as February 10, according toThe Lever—said Tuesday in a statement.

Malcolm X's family announces $100 million lawsuit alleging NYPD and other agencies concealed evidence in his murder
Civil rights attorney Benjamin Crump and family members of Malcolm X — the legendary activist who was assassinated in Feb. 1965, at the age of 39 — announced on Tuesday their plans to file a lawsuit against the New York City Police Department and various government agencies, alleging they intentionally concealed evidence related to the murder after it happened.

Biden administration rolls out new asylum restrictions mirroring Trump-era policy
The new 153-page proposed regulation, whPost too long. Click here to view the full text.


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Thanks News Anon


Inside the Teamsters’ Preparations for a UPS Strike
On Super Bowl Sunday morning, outside a union hall in Nassau County, New York, the Teamsters had run out of parking. The members of Teamsters Local 804 had gathered at the Local 282 building because their own headquarters, in Long Island City, weren’t large enough for a general membership meeting. Local 804 represents roughly eight thousand United Parcel Service (UPS) workers in New York City, Westchester, and Long Island, making it one of the Teamsters’ largest UPS locals. As members kept arriving, proper spaces filled up, and workers left their cars wherever they could — a problem for the union’s neighbor, an ambulance company, whose vehicles were now having trouble navigating the shared parking lot. Upon hearing that their cars were blocking ambulances, the offending union members trudged back to the lot to move. When this many Teamsters are preparing for a strike, it can be tough to find a spot. Inside the union hall, the Rolling Stones’ “Sympathy for the Devil” blared over the speakers as some six hundred members waited for the meeting to begin. Local 804 president Vinnie Perrone, who began working at UPS nearly thirty years ago, said that he hadn’t seen a membership meeting this well attended since Ron Carey was reelected for a second term as president of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters (IBT). That was in 1996, and Carey ran as a critic of weaknesses in the UPS contract; he was backed by a coalition that included the Teamsters for a Democratic Union (TDU), a reform caucus founded in 1976 to push for greater rank-and-file democracy within the then-mob-infested union. Carey had started out as a UPS driver in Queens, and before becoming IBT president in 1992, he served as president of Local 804. In 1997, he led the 185,000 UPS Teamsters out on a nationwide strike that lasted fifteen days before the union declared victory. The United States has not seen a strike of that magnitude since. That may soon change, which is what the Local 804 members were gathered on Long Island to discuss.

Sturgeon's downfall reflects contradictions the whole British left must overcome
NICOLA STURGEON hasPost too long. Click here to view the full text.


That Trotsky article is great with regards to contemporary political contexts; the deterioration of modern social democratic forms of government which unlike 1932 are not necessarily under threat by external forces but internal pressures within western political states.


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Thank you based News Anon


Seriously, does anyone have an explanation for why most doomerfags end up being upper middle class whites from the West? Honestly I wouldn’t even care were it not for the fact that most “doomers” (read, privileged fags) also seethe and shit themselves when you propose socialist solutions to the ecological crisis, like tf do y’all nighas want, just genocide then? Cowardly fucks, if everything is doomed anyway why are you opposing any and all attempted solutions?
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he just like me fr


The plan is to dig up all the stuff above the basins with nukes, now ain't that right shay


"Educated" necessarily also means "brainwashed"



>Youll notice that people who doompost about the climate dont want to flood desert areas because it would kill the local cacti or harm the river fish
Stupid post.


In the USA: Shorter prison sentences with organ donation

According to the legislative initiative, prisoners could shorten their sentences by donating their organs. In the United States, prisoners in Massachusetts may soon be able to shorten their prison sentences by donating their organs or bone marrow, if a legislative initiative in the state passes.

Behind the bill are Carlos Gonzalez and Judith Garcia, who represent the Democratic Party in the state Congress.

The purpose of the law is to start an organ donation program in state prisons. The program would offer prisoners the opportunity to shorten their prison sentence by at least two months, but at most by a year. The program would be overseen by a five-member committee whose task would be to decide on eligibility requirements and how much of the sentence could be cut with donated organs or bone marrow.

According to Judith Garcia, another initiator of the bill, the law would restore to prisoners their "bodily autonomy" by giving them the opportunity to donate organs and bone marrow.

According to him, the decision to extradite prisoners would be taken into account by shortening prison sentences.

However, not everyone is convinced that the law works. Many fear that in the name of the program, prisoners in a vulnerable position would be "preyed" and would donate their organs in order to shorten their sentences.

Prisoners Legal Services of Massachusetts further points out that black and brown people are unfairly disadvantaged in many ways. Although they are not as easily accepted as recipients of donated organs as whites, the service does not believe this law will solve this "serious problem".
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So youre saying America is a dictatorship, lib?


All my life I was told this is what China does.

They have defunded education and the humanities, yeah the humanities, to the point where there aren't enough educated active citizens to see the implications of this.


>All my life I was told this is what China does.
to be exact, they had a policy of "everyone is by default an organ donor", which applied to people condemned to death.

Some falun schizo whined they were condemning falun gong member to death to steal their superior healthy organs, which the west promptly media boosted. The UN didnt find any proof of this, but did go "hey, that policy when applied to prisoners and death sentences can certainly lead to abuse, and taking people organ without their consent is bad !" to which china said "ok we gonna stop", and did. The propaganda about it didnt stop though.


>to be exact, they had a policy of "everyone is by default an organ donor", which applied to people condemned to death.
didn't know that, but that's a position i've argued in favor of in the past.
> The propaganda about it didnt stop though.
need a china trope debunking infographic or something.


You're not going to win people over with evidence. You need an emotional hook.

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>In general, the dissolution of the USSR was marked as the triumph of liberal democracy over Communism by creating a rift in the ideological realm of the West. However, the euphoria erupted from the West, which exaggerated as the end of history by Fukuyama was short-lived with the emergence of different narratives from the different corners of the earth. Especially, the ideologies appealing to civilizational romance replaced the vacuum created by Communism in the most fervent manner, which vehemently critiqued the pitfalls of the Western liberal discourse as a decadent machinery reflecting the demerits of crony capitalism. It was interesting phenomenon that some of the intellectuals who hailed and nurtured themselves under the bliss of Communist ideology felt enthusiastic in seeking different approaches to confront the West.

>The common feature which is palpably evident in tracing the ideological avenues between Alexander Dugin of Russia and Nalin de Silva in Sri Lanka is their initial encounters with Communism regardless of their later disinclination towards it. It may appear to be rather ironic in viewing both of their philosophical contributions to their own state apparatus. Silva has been largely hailed as the sage of current Sinhalese Buddhist nationalism which was used as the populist trumpet for the political victory of the ruling regime of Mahinda Rajapaksa in post-war Sri Lanka and Dugin is personified by the Western media as Putin’s Rasputin with his wider influence in creating Russia’s nostalgia for its imperial pre-Soviet past. The most vivid and consequential formulation of Dugin and Silva’s ideological narrative needs to be examined in the context of the socio-political unrest that pervaded their home spaces. Both Russia and Sri Lanka were swallowed by an unprecedented wave of discontent after both countries embraced the pure form of Western liberalism as the last resort at different junctures. A conspicuous step taken was the dismantling of all the traditional forms that existed in both countries as the hoorah for Liberalism that resulted in creating an ideological limbo and it was the moment both Dugin and Silva gave birth to the potency of their ideologies which were interwoven with the native culture in their respective countries.

>Nalin de Silva took a rapid shift from his initial hobnobbing with Communism after authoring his seminal wor
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didn't read


>understanding dugin

I dont need to understand retarded not-in-power rightoids when the governments in place are guided by the forces of capital.

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