/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2683138
Except labour vouchers are not a currency, they don't circulate among people, they are personal and are extinguished once they are exchanged

I'm trying to think of how market socialism could possibly work without just degenerating back into reskinned capitalism. Oh, I'm not allowed to hire employees? Every firm must be co-operative? Well, I'll just have my one-man widget production manager firm and "buy" the labour of 100 of other "independent" labourers to do all things necessary to make and sell widgets.

>>2614940
Yeah capitalism, i mean market socialism, is truly the most advanced mode. One might say that history ends with capitalism, i mean market socialism.

dengist scroll jutsu lol!

>>2614940
market socialism is only doable in resource rich nations where the investments are guaranteed a quadruple return or states that have tactical reasons to exist for other capitalist states, the one exception to these is the cuban goverment which is struggling and undergoing shortage issues because of their market reforms

Market socialism is Agent Kochinski coded

Internationalism died on the 5th March 1953.

True

>>2691827
>Soviet meaning council would have become archaic
Funny how to they kept councils in their name but disbanded already powerless councils. Sad state of affairs that Stalin killed the actual communists in the party.

>>2691924
Pretty funny

>>2691741
>>2691721
It should be called Soviet Russian Union. Nobody can deny that while there was some autonomy, the official language and culture was the Russian language and culture. Other ethnicities had right to preserve their culture, but they were *mandated* to learn the Russian culture. Should Bolsheviks succeed, the world socialist republic would speak the Russian language, learn Russian songs, dances and culture, and it's capital would be Moscow.
The Soviet anthem says it itself: The Great Russia gifted us the Soviet Union!

1.Changes in organic composition of capital means that manufacturing share of labour will no longer absorb a huge amount of workers. You can't just deploy workers in a factory anymore, with how complicated and automated shit are nowadays. However I can see on-demand labour deployment in agriculture or services, India and China already do this, however this means that difference between productive capital and rent extraction becomes nul since there are no moe productive, industrial capital.
2.>state owned enterprises competing with private enterprise at low surplus margins and with low managerial salaries
This is my second biggest problem. Everything you said here, from implementation of labour vouchers to universal compulsory education to concentration of capital required an enormous, massive and powerful managerial bureaucracy, which you will need to pay and train significantly more than the average proles. You want to have your cake and eat it too; a state that needs massive managerial bureaucracy but also one without a nomenklatura. This is not gonna happen, because bureaucratic work by its nature is specialized.
3. >Organization of labor or employment of proletarians on publicly owned land, in factories and workshops, with competition among the workers being abolished and with the factory owners, in so far as they still exist, being obliged to pay the same high wages as those paid by the state.
>cap hours allowed to be worked per week and implement more robust welfare
My third biggest problem. Having full employment will result in a massive demand increase. Since we control capital we can prevent inflationary pressure on the currency equivalent but we will still be left with a skyrocketing demand for consumer and industrial goods. Unless you want to face goods shortage you have to crank up working hours instead of reducing them. Again a case of having your cake and eat it too.
However, this is already a step in the right direction. We need labour creation and mobilization program. And we need a massive, well paid bureaucracy to do that. The rest of your platform just need some moderation

>>2639546
Dengism

>>2652538
Nah, it's fine. Most of the non-cyclical and nin-habbening threads here are shit tier bait.

>>2652538
No, honestly it's fine, better than most the pure dogshit of the catalogue recently.
>>2686335
>cyclical and habbening threads
You lot barely post in them, instead preferring to learn nothing and endlessly bicker in whatever batch of nonsense threads, usually downstream of this weeks twitter engagement-slop.

>>2686213
What

>>2688720
Yep, and even within the US there’d an underclass with all the poor migrants/illegal migrants used for sub minimum wage labor

america bombs the third world in order to secure the resources that form the basis of its supply chain. they don't really fund social programs, they limit domestic policy to fuel prices and collude with capital.

>>2686935
Absolute cretin, the Moffing

>>2686859
The West must slaughter third worlders daily to pay their soul debt to the demon lords that give them temporal power. Failure to pay results in destruction and a billion years of torture.

>>2688155
Is it?

It’s not even relevant because the ecological destruction capitalism is causing will make both itself and a transition to socialism (whatever that means) impossible anyway, the only way forward is a return to feudalism or primitive communism

>>2683687
>Feudal rulers could not just rebrand themselves and hope to compete in a world shaped by industry and markets.

They did though. That's how there were European aristos with real power well into the 20th century. Capitalists were acquiring titles for a long time to legitimize themselves (marrying into a family or buying it).

>capitalism develops centralized nation-states

Feudalism was already doing this although I guess you could call the transition proto-capitalism depends on what time period you're talking about.

You are correct. But industrial communism just seems so unimaginable and far away. How could it develop from within capitalism? What does the transitional period looks like? Is it even comparable to feudalism transitioning into capitalism? Cause they are both class systems.

>>2683687
>Feudal rulers could not just rebrand themselves and hope to compete in a world shaped by industry and markets.

Except that's what happened in Japan. Instead of having a bourgeois revolution they had a managed transition out of feudalism by the portion of the feudal ruling class who were modernizers.

< The Japanese elite knew their country to be one among many confronted by the dangers of conquest or subjection which they had faced in the course of a long history […] what is perhaps more important, the Japanese elite possessed a state apparatus and a social structure capable of controlling the movement of an entire society. To transform a country from above without risking either passive resistance, disintegration, or revolution is extremely difficult. The Japanese rulers were in the historically exceptional position of being able to mobilise a traditional mechanism of social obedience for the purposes of a sudden, radical, but controlled 'westernisation' […] the 'Meiji Restoration' […] a drastic 'revolution from above' […] The parallelism between Japan and Prussia has often been made. In both countries capitalism was formally installed not by bourgeois revolution [against feudal lords] but from above, by an old [feudal] bureaucratic-aristocratic order which recognised that its survival could not otherwise be assured.
Eric Hobsbawm, Age of Capital (1848-1875), Chapter 8

Now consider: the transition from primitive communism to slavery, and from slavery to serfdom was neither brought about through the planning of the ruling class, nor through revolution, but through unplanned historical changes over several centuries. To me, the idea that modes of production ALWAYS transform through deliberate revolution is ahistorical. What history shows is that modes of production do change, but whether they change through revolution, reform, or in a totally unplanned way over a long period of time, is up to particular material conditions.

>>2683850
It’s the exact opposite. And degenerating back to feudalism and primitive communism is essentially suicide.

>>2670263
also what the AI bubble popping or mass unemployment?

we are in the nothing happens period, it will last all your life

yes

>>2663487
Interwar and pre revolution until social media gets banned
>>2670204
But yeah ww3 after great depression after ai bubble pops

>>2663487
Soon

>>2668757
i mean you do kinda have to make the infrastructure for foreign capitalists to invest or you dont have the foundation for them to give you their patents

>>2670043
> In China, workers use Communist Stock market to exploit foreign capitalists.
thats what i said lol

>>2668657
Wrong. In China, workers use Communist Stock market to exploit foreign capitalists. Communist Stock Market serves Communism without regard to law of surplus-value, as sanctified by Article 1 of Securities Law of the People's Republic of China, because the law of surplus-value is abolished in China.
>Article 1 This Law is enacted in order to standardize the issuance and transaction of securities, protect the legitimate rights and interests of investors, maintain the socioeconomic order and public interests of society and promote the development of the socialist market economy. 
Communist security law differentiates bourgeois investors from proletarian investors, upholding domination of proletarian investors over foreign bourgeois investors.
>Article 89 Investors may be divided into ordinary investors and professional investors on the basis of their asset status, financial assets, investment knowledge and experiences and professional capacity. The criteria for professional investors shall be specified by the securities regulatory authority under the State Council. Where an ordinary investor has a dispute with a securities company, the securities company shall prove that it has acted in compliance with the laws, administrative regulations and the regulations of securities regulatory authority under the State Council and has in no circumstances misled or cheated the investor. Where the securities company is unable to prove the above, it shall bear the corresponding compensatory liability. 

>>2670026
Just steal them

I doubt Americans will be happy if Trump destroys the dollar to prop up a new crypto empire.

anon, i feel the same way. I welcome the collapse. APOCOLYPTIC SOCIALISM IS THE FUTURE

>>2659168
Climate change?

>>2659168
>hes ignoring climate change
hehehehehehe

>>2666171
They won’t

>>2665334
>epistemology
erm chuddy thats philosophy and marx was very critical of it so that means communists should never engage in that stuff o algo

>>2666241
Proof?

>>2665432
>>2665454
I think it's wrong to consider identity oppressions "non-class based", because if you're rich enough you can avoid them. A proletarian woman is expected to have a job, raise a kid, feed her family, and do a majority of the housework. A bourgeois woman can simply hire a maid, doordash every meal, and have a lucrative career or not depending on her whims. A black man from a poor area will be profiled as "gang-affiliated" just based on family and neighborhood ties, railroaded into jail, and once out may have work requirements that force him to take the first job available and not leave when working conditions are bad, pay is low, wages are stolen, etc., might not be able to vote, might have debt to the prison that compounds interest and for which the state garnishes wages, etc. A bourgeois black man avoids all of this, and his worst oppression is that the guys at the country club make offensive jokes.

Within the proletariat there are strata, and these are influenced heavily by identities like race, sex, and nationality, among others. If we attack and alleviate certain policies that keep some proletarians down based on one of these identities, we are attacking the exploitation of the working class. Just like if we form a union and strike for better conditions. It doesn't raise up all the working class at once, but it does alleviate some of the oppression bit by bit. It also equalizes things within the working class, making it easier for us to unite. Right now it's hard for a white person, without intentionally educating themselves on these systems, to understand and feel solidarity with the level of oppression that non-whites face. It's difficult for men to unite with women when women's extra labor allows their comfort. So both in the communist spirit of serving the most exploited and oppressed, and out of practical necessity, the systems and cultural norms that enforce these divides within the working class need to be attacked by communists. The division of the working class into strata, some higher and some lower, makes traitors of those in higher strata, or at best makes them comfortable and slow to act in solidarity with the more oppressed strata. This is just the reality. White men tend to be more conservative, and black womPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

>>2665011
Make demands so extreme that the Democrats don't want to deal with you anymore.

>>2667432
Already doing that

>>2670751
oxymoron

>>2665539
Anarchist mode of production doesnt work, read the walmart republic.

>>2665976
>Elections are based purely on who has the best optics and popularity which often has nothing to do with how good they are at ruling

Does that also apply to party hierarchies? I'd be down with a system where everything was done by sortition

I'm not the most educated on marx or lenin but I thought the dictatorship of the proletariat was just fancy lingo for a government ran by and for the workers and only certain branches of Marxism Leninism actually believed in the Dotp being an actual dictatorship

>>2674266
It’s very liberal