These fuckers also hated Catholics too
22 posts and 5 image replies omitted.>>723887>how are the old dynastic realms at all the same as the nation-states that emerged after the liberal wave of revolution?They're not, because those old dynastic realms were indeed Catholic, but for Catholicism the Cathedral was a kind of Anti-Politics and the apocalyptic origins of the religion. The Cathedral represents New Jerusalem unto which Catholics escape to.
This is really a black sheep aspect of Christianity in general.
Nationalism is really just like any imagined community at its core. The Catholic attitude towards Nationalism is just the Catholic attitude towards Politics in general – it was the same even with the dynasties and their kingdoms, the ultra-clericals confidently chimed Church Sword > Political Sword.
There's a reason why there's a big divide between Christian /pol/ and neopagan /pol/ – the nationalists on /pol/ ultimately caught on to what Rousseau understood, that Christianity in particular separated Church and State, and that Christianity did not value their country the same way Antiquity did.
Compare and contrast these quotes by Cicero with
>“I am a Christian. He who answers thus has declared everything at once—his country, profession, family; the believer belongs to no city on earth but to the heavenly Jerusalem.”- St. John Chrysostom
>"So that you may be the readier to defend the Constitution, know this: for all who have preserved their fatherland, furthered it, enriched it, there is in heaven a sure and allotted abode, where they may enjoy an immortality of happiness." - Cicero
"For nothing happens in the world more pleasing to that supreme Deity, who governs all the universe, than those gatherings and unions of men allied by common laws, which are called states. From this place do their rulers and guardians set out, and to this place do they return."
- Cicero
"Exercise this soul in the noblest activities. Now the noblest are cares and exertions for our country's welfare."
- Cicero
Post too long. Click here to view the full text.I think Rousseau's analysis is correct:
https://www.earlymoderntexts.com/assets/pdfs/rousseau1762.pdfRousseau's criticism of Christianity>You may ask: ‘Why were there no wars of religion in the pagan world, where each state had its own form of worship and its own gods?’
>My reply is that just because each state had its own form of worship as well as its own government, no state distinguished its gods from its laws. Political war was also theological war; the gods had, so to speak, provinces that were fixed by the boundaries of nations. The god of one people had no right over other peoples. The gods of the pagans were not jealous gods
>This was the situation when Jesus came to set up on earth a spiritual kingdom, which, by separating the theological from the political system, destroyed the unity of the state, and caused the internal divisions that never ceased to trouble Christian peoples. This new idea of a kingdom of 'the other world' could never have occurred to pagans, so they always regarded the Christians as really rebels.
>However, as there was always a prince and civil laws as well as a church, this double power created a conflict of jurisdiction that made it impossible for Christian states to be governed well; and men never managed to discover whether they were obliged to obey the master or the priest.
>Several peoples, however, even in Europe and its neighbourhood, have tried to preserve or estore the old system–tired and failed, because the spirit of Christianity has won every time. The sacred cult has always remained or again become independent of the sovereign and not essentially linked with the body of the state.
>Among us Europeans, the Kings of England have been made heads of the Church, and the Czars have done much the same.
Post too long. Click here to view the full text.I agree, if you want to see how Catholicism and Nationalism had their relationship back then, just look at the Middle East in recent history and the conflict with Arab Nationalism and other "secularist" political ideologies, and the conflict between the nationalists there and the others.
The more Liberal Pahlavi monarchists bring up a good point when they show this quote, for instance.
>"We do not worship Iran, we worship Allah. For patriotism is another name for PAGANISM. I say let this land [Iran] burn. I say let this land go up in smoke, provided Islam emerges triumphant in the rest of the world."
-Khomeini
Khomeini has a good point too: Patriotism is another name for Paganism.
Rousseau was also on point that prior to Christianity – the State and Religion generally were together, and Politics was valued more – it wasn't the case that there was an apocalypse and an another City (and if there was the idea of a City, the New Jerusalem was -that- City to destroy and replace all Cities rather than be a model unto all cities, again, like Rousseau says, the jealousy).
Even Plato said for his philosopher kings they'd have to come down and establish the community good of their political body. And Aristotle
>But, if all communities aim at some good, the state or political community, which is the highest of all, and which embraces all the rest, aims at good in a greater degree than any other, and at the highest good.
Aristotle probably inspired those quotes by Cicero (& established political virtue that Statists would see).
I think the hatred for Politics is a uniquely Christian innovation because of its apocalyptic origin and Rousseau is spot on for why conservative Christians say Politics is trashy and dismiss what was once legitimate concerns of the past… Modernity has taken this and warped it maybe more strongly in favor of Politics in reaction to Ultra-Clericalism of Christianity, but that reaction in a way was warranted.
>>723894>This new idea of a kingdom of 'the other world' could never have occurred to pagansZionists invented hummus, the thought of grinding sesame seeds into slop never occurred to Palestinians! No one knew, there was no growth of food consciousness in parallel with their political economic growth in consciousness! No one knew about tahini!
>>723362>who gives a fuck what these slaveowning faggots thoughtthe Trot neocons at WSWS apparently define their entire personality around it:
<On April 19, 1775, 250 years ago today, the first battles of the American Revolution took place at Lexington and Concord in Massachusetts. The day of fighting, itself the outcome of a gathering revolutionary crisis, presaged the outcome of the war: the victory of the revolution over what was then the world’s greatest power, Great Britain, and the establishment of the world’s first major modern democratic republic. https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2025/04/19/kyta-a19.html<Related works:<David North, Equality, the Rights of Man and the Birth of Socialism<Gordon Wood, The Radicalism of the American Revolution<Bernard Bailyn, The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution